Yet another "ask the experts opion" thread

[Travlin]

Hello everyone.

After some searching for a good forum I have come upon this space that seems like home already. I am not asking for "the perfect camera for me", but I am in need of some basic yet high end information to allow me to make my search somewhat less random for my first Digital SRL.

First an introduction. I have been for many years been only shooting 35mm format while waiting for the digital SRL world to come to age (as well as the price tag to settle). I still carry my old friend T101 as my backup camera if this gives you an idea as to how long I have held out . I have been playing with point and shoot digitals in the 6-8 MP range for a while and am now seriously in the hunt for my new Digital SRL. After a LOT of reading, across the different makers, I have raised some questions I wanted to bounce off the experts to help clear me search a bit. I am normally shooting shall I say a 'general photography' shot, stalking the perfect mirrored sunset on a mystical river type of things. I carry a tripod when I want to shoot for enlargements as a practice. I see no need to go pro with a D200, but I am fully expecting to start with $1000 - $1500 as a budget and go from there for a body and some glass to start playing with. At the moment I have no brand bias since I have always shot Minolta and Tokina glass, so I suppose here is part of my problem, I just can't go drop a grand into the Digital of the brand I have always used.

My questions are pretty basic I suppose, outside the realm of "how many focal points are better 6,8,10", those will come after I pin down some other questions.

Sensors
Canon - CMOS
Nikon - CCD
Olympus - Live Mos (sounds like CMOS I would think) and now seems to be moving to CCD

What are the real advantages one to the other if talking in the same MP range. I see what looks like a move to a larger sensor, what are your feelings on the current "smaller" ones VS the larger format. I can assume that in the same MP range that a larger sensor would give a better "natural" clearness of image due to less data per square MM of surface?

The glass I see today seems generally to come from the maker of the camera, what are your feelings on the native glass for these 3 makes today. In the past all 3 have had good stuff. I guess on this point I just don't want to go toward a dead end in the future if I choose the wrong path now concerning glass.

All input will be graciously accepted and carefully considered.

Many thanks

Travlin

[Canuck935]

Hmm I think perhaps you are looking too much into it. Any of the current DSLR's have more than adequate IQ. If I were you I'd look at the glass and 'system' available to you from different brands. I'd start with finding a good lens that suits your needs, then using the rest of your budget to buy whatever camera happens to fit at the rear of that lens.

[DEvianT]

Canon give the best low light performance.
Nikon offer best build quality for the price.
Olympus have the live view and compact lenses.

Sensor size.

I feel canon will run with both the 1.6x and full frame sensors but the full frame will become more affordable.
I doubt Nikon can go full frame with the size of lens mount they use. I think the problems with light fall off on the edges of the sensor would be too great.
Olympus are committed to the four thirds system and will not go full frame. This means they will struggle to get very high res sensors without noise issues as they'd have to go for tiny pixel sizes very densly packed (which adds noise and bleed)

As has been said just about any DSLR you'd care to use now blows 35mm film out the water so try some bodies, see what you like and jump in.
D

[Franglais]

There are two main sensor manufacturers for the DSLR marketplace.

Sony makes APS-C (about 1 inch) sensors using CCD technology, same as in the millions of point-and-shoot cameras that they also make the sensors for. Up till now they have been on a 4 year life cycle - 6 years ago they released a 6Mpix sensor, two years ago they released a 10Mpix sensor, it's rumoured they are about to release a 12Mpix sensor. These sensors are used in all the consumer and prosumer DSLR's from Nikon (up to D200), Pentax/Samsung (all) and Minolta/Sony (all) but each manufacturer has it's own image processor so the results are quite different.

Canon makes APS-C and larger (up to film-frame 24x36mm) sensors using CMOS technology in their own factory. The APS-C sensor goes in the consumer and prosumer models (XTi, 30D) while the larger sensors go in the pro models (1 series, 5D). Canon release on a 2-year cycle by 2MPix increments (XTi has 10Mpix, 30D has older 8MPix sensor & is rumoured to be replaced shortly).

What with the different release cycles and sensor sizes it has been very difficult to compare CMOS and CCD but in my opinion:

- CMOS and CCD are about equivalent but Nikon and Canon have different compromises in terms of noise reduction and sharpness.
- the larger sensors (24x36) give better images than the APS-C ones but you have to make a huge enlargement to see the difference.
- sensor technology improves constantly and it take less than two years for an APS-C sensor to catch up with a 24x36 sensor.
- a larger sensor is generally more sensitive to light (bigger surface) and it gives highlights with a smoother burn-out (but the effect is slight)
- a larger sensor is much more expensive to manufacture than a small one (10X?). Sensor costs would have to drop a lot for a 24x36 sensor to be available in anything other than a Pro camera

Smaller sensor means smaller camera and the opportunity to make new lenses with almost constant performance, wide focal length range, small size, etc.

- Nikon have heavily invested in the APS-C format with a full range of cameras and some brilliant lenses.
- Canon haven't been very daring lately in their APS-C cameras. Their range of lenses for the smaller sensor is limited and in some cases downright mediocre. It looks like Canon would prefer you to buy a Pro model.

I haven't been following Olympus. I believe that their sensor is made by Panasonic. A lot of smaller manufacturers have jumped onto the 4/3 format but for the time being I can't see any advantage apart from having a sensor cleaning system that really works

[DEvianT]

Very accurate post. As an addendum I think the original idea with 4/3 system was that the sensors where so expensive at the time having a smaller system seemed a good idea. Now the price is so much lower it doesn't seem so clever I feel.

Couple of other Canon/Nikon points you made me think of are as follows.

Flash: Nikon's flash system is cheaper and slightly more accurate than Canon.

Back to the Noise: I wouldn't say Nikon Canon have different compromises I'd say nikon have to use heavy noise reduction at the cost of detail. Canon stole a march on everyone with their high ISO performance at present. I'm sure Fuji, Nikon will catch up or leapfrog at some point as this is the way of things in electronics sector. But for now Canon lead in terms of low image noise at higher ISO.

[Franglais]

Back to the Noise: I wouldn't say Nikon Canon have different compromises I'd say nikon have to use heavy noise reduction at the cost of detail. Canon stole a march on everyone with their high ISO performance at present. I'm sure Fuji, Nikon will catch up or leapfrog at some point as this is the way of things in electronics sector. But for now Canon lead in terms of low image noise at higher ISO.

Hi Deviant. Been watching your posts for a while. We're not going to agree on this one so let me just say on what I based my conclusion.

Canon's high ISO performance reputation was founded on sensors that were not comparable to the Sony competition:

- the 8MPix APS-C sensor used in the 20D and 30D came out 2 years after the 6MPix sensor in the D70 etc.
- the 12Mpix 24x36 sensor in the 5D is twice as big as the 12MPix APS-C sensor in the Nikon D2X (which is now 3 years old and is a modified CMOS device anyway)

The only CMOS and CCD sensors that are directly comparable are the curent 10MPix ones in Canon's 400D/XTi and Nikon's D80/D40x/D200. And the Canon sensor had the advantage of coming out 12 months after the Sony one. I eagerly read the reviews when the 400D came out. And it was a draw. No clear advantage for either.

[DEvianT]

I'd agree on the reasoning totaly so I'd say we do agree. For me the current result is that the 5D is best for my needs (Or the 1DMKII,1DsMK2 but I can't afford!).

I'd also add something I'm sure we'll both agree on. For most use up to about A3 size most people would get results that are more than satisfactory from either brand.

To be honest handling/build wise I'd choose a Nikon unless I was suing a 1 Series in which case it's down to taste. With lenses it's six and two threes between Nikon&Canon. Again I love my 85mm f/1.2 L II so much I have to stick with Canon. It's down to my style of shooting that I am a Canon user originally and now I am locked in the lens system it's unlikely I'd change. That said when I shoot weddings with my fellow tog he's on Nikon and I'm on Canon and the albums end up roughly 50/50 and only we can tell which was which system except in low low light when the 5D excells.

[Travlin]

First let me say that the information I have gotten from you guys was truly brilliant. I could have not asked for more of a technical comparison from people who are living in the Digital world as it is now, oh wait, I DID ask :thumbsup: Seriously, thanks for the input, it was what I was looking for to help get real world input on the side of this I can only read on. I work in technology and it is hard to get a true comparison from very similar technologies from literature, it is usually slanted that whichever the brief is about, is the best. When all are the best, then all are equal.

I have spent time this week playing with the cameras (the best you can do in the stores) and I have to agree that the Nikon for feel and build seems to top Canon, although Canon can not be talked down on for many, many years.. This has been the base of my quandary really, with the reputations of the main players out there, it takes the small things only learned with time living with the technology to separate them. With this time you also can help to foresee the future. I really HATE to move on a major direction and decide 1 year later, after learning it in depth its the WRONG direction.

Right now I am leaning to the Nikon D80 I think, I would say mostly for the long history of top glass available, not to mention it just "felt right" as an extension of my hand.

Thank you all again.

Trav

[Travlin]

Well, several things have happened in the last weeks, I got a D40X for my wife to use and let me live with the Nikon for a bit before I decide on my own body. So far I like what I see. Paired with Lightroom and CS3 I have seen things I really like.

The most important happening has been the "release" of the D300. I am not at all ready to make the jump into the new sensor format by any means, but I feel that there will be a significant resetting in the Nikon line based on the DX format of sensor and glass. What in your opinion will be the "new" lineups? The D80 I think will be the new bottom end body to step into the "semi pro" world, with the D200 stepping down a notch behind the 300 and what I am sure will be the full pro bodies following the move off of the DX format. I would suspect a price drop on the D80 and D200 in the near future and would hate to miss taking advantage of this shift simply by not waiting a couple of months to let the line reposition itself.

What are you guys feeling on this new direction?

Trav

[Franglais]

Well, several things have happened in the last weeks, I got a D40X for my wife to use and let me live with the Nikon for a bit before I decide on my own body. So far I like what I see. Paired with Lightroom and CS3 I have seen things I really like.

The most important happening has been the "release" of the D300. I am not at all ready to make the jump into the new sensor format by any means, but I feel that there will be a significant resetting in the Nikon line based on the DX format of sensor and glass. What in your opinion will be the "new" lineups? The D80 I think will be the new bottom end body to step into the "semi pro" world, with the D200 stepping down a notch behind the 300 and what I am sure will be the full pro bodies following the move off of the DX format. I would suspect a price drop on the D80 and D200 in the near future and would hate to miss taking advantage of this shift simply by not waiting a couple of months to let the line reposition itself.

What are you guys feeling on this new direction?

Trav

The D300 is the DX sensor format same as the D200, D80, D40x and most of the DSLR's available on the market. The FX format is the same as 24x36 film and seems to be reserved for high-end pro bodies like the D3. The D3 is $5K just for the body plus $1K at least for each lens to do it justice. Way out of my budget (I have the lenses already but for an amateur to spend $5K on a camera is immoral). I'm sticking with DX. Cameras like the D300 will continue to satisfy advanced amateurs and low-end pros for decades to come.

The D200 price has already dropped - the original price was the same as the one for the D300. I think the D200 will be discontinued when stocks have run out (the D300 is note supposed to be available before November). I have the impression that the D80 price has also dropped a bit in Europe. If it drops again I think it will be because of the Canon 40D.

If I were you I would say - get to know the D40X - and wait for a while. The D300 uses a new sensor and there may be some problems with it at first. I waited for 6 months after announcement before buying my D200 and I've never had any problems (except dust - 3 sensor cleans in 18 months). As for the D80 - I imagine that it will be replaced by a new model using a simplified version of the new sensor about 12 months from now. That's what happened with the D200 and the D80.

As for me - I'm asking myself if I really need a D300 when I have a D200. There are lots of nice improvements but they are not enough to make me change - 12Mpix instead of 10, sensor cleaning, 100% viewfinder, new focussing system, faster fps, higher ISO. I'm going to wait for the reviews.

[dante]

well, it definitely sounds like you've jumped into the Nikon pool, and I'd advise staying there just for the interchangeability between yours and your wife's camera. only thing that I'd note is that a LOT of lenses (all Tamron, most Sigma, and any Nikon that's not AF-S) won't work on her camera. Nikon's finally changing over to solely putting the AF motor in the lenses, so the D40/D40x are the first cameras to not have the additional focus motor in the body. Just something to keep in mind if you start looking at things like Nikon prime lenses or 3rd party manufacturers.

overall I'd say wait to see the reviews of the new Nikons before deciding whether to pony up the cash on the (higher-end) D300 instead of grabbing a D200 or D80 at a lower cost. I'm not sure that the 200 is going to fall much in price just yet, and also wonder whether the D80 will drop just since it'd put it too close to the D40x.

Lastly, do you have Minolta A-Mount AF lenses? they're compatible with the new Sony DSLRs, so if you have a bag full you may want to experiment with them as well.

enjoy, it's an addiction, but you probably already know that from your film days...

[Travlin]

The D80 was the body I had pretty much decided on to buy myself for Christmas, and was wondering if MAYBE the price on the D200 would fall fast enough to satisfy the need to get my own Nikon so my wife wont kill me for learning her D40x ("Hey Honey, wheres the camera, I want to check out something?')

As for old glass, my Minolta glass goes back beyond the AF world. I shot manual Tokina glass on my Minolta, so I think that staying in the Nikon world will work with both the wife and I having it. LUCKLY, she wont know the difference between the 'good' glass I get her and the stuff I want to carry. I have pretty well settled the first piece will be a the 18-200 VR to get to know the body, but I have seen some decent reviews on the Tokina glass, but nothing really breathtaking yet.

Trav

[dante]

LUCKLY, she wont know the difference between the 'good' glass I get her and the stuff I want to carry.

Ya, good luck with that... when her pics don't look like yours, you know that that'll be her first conclusion.