seriously considering leaving Canon

[Mirrorlockups]

I have always perferred Canon as my first choice for any electronic imaging. I have always wanted the EOS 10D, but by the time I saved money, the 20D was out, so I went with that. Later I found a good deal on a used 10D so I bought that as a back up. All my pictures were extremely blurry with the 20D, so naturally, I suspected user error, from reading many posts on the subject. For over six months, I was trying to figure it all out.

From post processing, to RAW manipulations, reading the manual over and over. One day, I decided to download focus test charts and I printed them.

I did the tests with different lenses and bodies, manual and auto-focus to be sure. The conclusion from these test is that the 20D front focuses > 6 cm!

This is so frustrating. I've wasted over 6 months on lost pictures because it just HAD BE USER ERROR. How could I spend $1300.00 on a body that doesn't even focus!?!?!

Being able to focus should be the most important part of any camera!

I realize Canon is pumping these things out in greater quantities than any other company and maybe the production is getting ahead of quality control.

Yes, it's under warranty. I don't know where I put my reciept, though. It's just so frustrating to even have to deal with this. I understand this is a common problem with Canon's "Pro-sumer" bodies.

I was dead set on getting a 1d mark II; surely the quality control won't be as bad on a "pro" body, could it?

This is just a hassle and I'm now considering the Nikon D200 or similar instead of the 1D. I plan of keeping the 10D as the focus is (more) precise, though still not dead on. Add to that my investment of Canon glass that I don't really want to lose money on.

The 10D is great, although there are a lot of things I want better - faster, for the most part.

I read so many opinions, I am just lost. I am wondering who out there has jumped ship from Canon with positive results, and what did you get?

I just don't want to spend $4000 on another "dud".

PS my printer, scanner, mini DV cam are all canon. I've been loyal until now.

[SmartWombat]

So, it's under warranty, why not just get them to fix it?
I had my 20D replaced by the dealer becaue it wasn't focussing accurately enough on racing cars. Now I admit I was pushing hte camera to its limits, but the second body works fine.
A good dealer can really save you a lot of pain here, rather then going for the cheapest supplier.
I used a Canon Pro dealer.
When they saw the results withe body I brought in, we tested the new body on passing cars and pedestrians before I left
Since then I've got a 1DSmkII refurbished form the Canon on line shop on ebay, works great and nearly 25% under shop price.
I wouldn't abandon them without giving them a chance to fix it.

[swmdrayfan]

This is just a hassle and I'm now considering the Nikon D200 or similar instead of the 1D. I plan of keeping the 10D as the focus is (more) precise, though still not dead on. Add to that my investment of Canon glass that I don't really want to lose money on.

Come to the dark side young Jedi, and we shall rule the universe.;)
John

[Franglais]

I have always perferred Canon as my first choice for any electronic imaging. I have always wanted the EOS 10D, but by the time I saved money, the 20D was out, so I went with that. Later I found a good deal on a used 10D so I bought that as a back up. All my pictures were extremely blurry with the 20D, so naturally, I suspected user error, from reading many posts on the subject. For over six months, I was trying to figure it all out.

From post processing, to RAW manipulations, reading the manual over and over. One day, I decided to download focus test charts and I printed them.

I did the tests with different lenses and bodies, manual and auto-focus to be sure. The conclusion from these test is that the 20D front focuses > 6 cm!

This is so frustrating. I've wasted over 6 months on lost pictures because it just HAD BE USER ERROR. How could I spend $1300.00 on a body that doesn't even focus!?!?!

Being able to focus should be the most important part of any camera!

I realize Canon is pumping these things out in greater quantities than any other company and maybe the production is getting ahead of quality control.

Yes, it's under warranty. I don't know where I put my reciept, though. It's just so frustrating to even have to deal with this. I understand this is a common problem with Canon's "Pro-sumer" bodies.

I was dead set on getting a 1d mark II; surely the quality control won't be as bad on a "pro" body, could it?

This is just a hassle and I'm now considering the Nikon D200 or similar instead of the 1D. I plan of keeping the 10D as the focus is (more) precise, though still not dead on. Add to that my investment of Canon glass that I don't really want to lose money on.

The 10D is great, although there are a lot of things I want better - faster, for the most part.

I read so many opinions, I am just lost. I am wondering who out there has jumped ship from Canon with positive results, and what did you get?

I just don't want to spend $4000 on another "dud".

PS my printer, scanner, mini DV cam are all canon. I've been loyal until now.

The camera is just a tool and Canon is just a supplier. Don't fall in love with Canon (or Nikon for that matter). There are lots of things to criticise in what each company does. I use material from lots of different suppliers and I just choose what suits me best.

You have a lot of Canon glass. To me it makes no sense to change to Nikon, you would make a loss. Lots of people have 20D's that work so you just have to make sure that yours does.

However if you are really sick with Canon then best to make a break now before you make any other investments in their kit. I have the D200 and it's really nice. I checked out the 30D last week (at Paris PMA) and it just deosn't feel as good.

Charles

[payn817]

I would also go with the crowd, and suggest trying to get it fixed. Recently it seems that alot of companies are having focus issues. Some bodies have it, some don't. Just because you've never seen a Rolls broke down doesn't mean they don't make a lemon now and then.

[JSPhoto]

I hate to say it but for as long as I have been on this forum I have repeatedly told people that the 20D HAS a focus issue. That said, Canon WILL repair it.

I don't suggest going to Nikon, if you think Canon has issues, try 5 dead Nikons in the past week, ALL are pro bodies! All under 4 months old, 2 just a week old. One guy was so upset he left the 1st game and got back during the second. Took his 4 week old Nikon back to the dealer and came back with a new 1D MKII N.

JS

[Anbesol]

a lot of people are shocked by what a TRUE digital image looks like, because of the technology of RGB interpolation that ALL camera's use outside of sigmas fovean line, edges and areas of high contrast tend to be slightly soft. Processors in point and shoots will sharpen the images in areas of high contrast, but SLR's tend not to, and tend to give you a more raw image (in more literal terms of the word, not just in the format). And canon's SLR line particularly does even less in camera sharpening then other SLR's. Two ways of going about this - if you want usable, sharp pictures right out of the camera, you can turn up your in-camera sharpening, or youre better option would be to process it better through photoshop/paintshop/etc, using something like unsharp masking, which would give you an even better control over the sharpness you desire. Images that use less in-camera processing and less in-camera sharpening like canon's lend themselves to more flexible creative control in post-processing.

I could be totally off, maybe it is the auto-focus motor. Have you tried macro focussing on a different lens? Canon lens have the auto focus technology built into the lens, so the focussing isnt part of the actual canon body, but rather the lens. Is it possible the softness you're experiencing could be a matter of in-camera sharpening?

[Mirrorlockups]

a lot of people are shocked by what a TRUE digital image looks like, because of the technology of RGB interpolation that ALL camera's use outside of sigmas fovean line, edges and areas of high contrast tend to be slightly soft. Processors in point and shoots will sharpen the images in areas of high contrast, but SLR's tend not to, and tend to give you a more raw image (in more literal terms of the word, not just in the format). And canon's SLR line particularly does even less in camera sharpening then other SLR's. Two ways of going about this - if you want usable, sharp pictures right out of the camera, you can turn up your in-camera sharpening, or youre better option would be to process it better through photoshop/paintshop/etc, using something like unsharp masking, which would give you an even better control over the sharpness you desire. Images that use less in-camera processing and less in-camera sharpening like canon's lend themselves to more flexible creative control in post-processing.

I could be totally off, maybe it is the auto-focus motor. Have you tried macro focussing on a different lens? Canon lens have the auto focus technology built into the lens, so the focussing isnt part of the actual canon body, but rather the lens. Is it possible the softness you're experiencing could be a matter of in-camera sharpening?

In my first post, I stated that I used RAW (no in camera sharpening), tested with Manual Focus as well as AF, and different lenses & bodies - to answer your questions.

I use unsharp masking all the time. Canon recommends 300, 0.3, 0 for these settings. I use them in Photoshop CS.

Luckily I have the 10D which proves to me the weak link is the 20D.

[Mirrorlockups]

I hate to say it but for as long as I have been on this forum I have repeatedly told people that the 20D HAS a focus issue. That said, Canon WILL repair it.

I don't suggest going to Nikon, if you think Canon has issues, try 5 dead Nikons in the past week, ALL are pro bodies! All under 4 months old, 2 just a week old. One guy was so upset he left the 1st game and got back during the second. Took his 4 week old Nikon back to the dealer and came back with a new 1D MKII N.

JS

VERY INTERESTING! Now that just messed me up even more. I understand that no matter what I get, there's chance for error. Sure, of course there is, I agree. More people will say Canon is better, because more people own Canon.

Thank you everyone for your informative replies. I don't know anything about Nikon except they seem to be the only competition Canon has. I know I like the way the Canons look over Nikons from pictures on the web; I've never touched a Nikon in real life. I hope they fix my 20D right and it's not much of a hassle (if I ever find my reciept), but it won't make up for the time I've wasted thinking it was just user error. They should give me some compensation, but of course they won't.

[Franglais]

VERY INTERESTING! Now that just messed me up even more. I understand that no matter what I get, there's chance for error. Sure, of course there is, I agree. More people will say Canon is better, because more people own Canon.

Thank you everyone for your informative replies. I don't know anything about Nikon except they seem to be the only competition Canon has. I know I like the way the Canons look over Nikons from pictures on the web; I've never touched a Nikon in real life. I hope they fix my 20D right and it's not much of a hassle (if I ever find my reciept), but it won't make up for the time I've wasted thinking it was just user error. They should give me some compensation, but of course they won't.

The Nikon failure thing is being discussed in the "Pitch camp" thread just below. First I've heard of it. It doesn't concern the D200.

Getting your 20D adjusted will cost you nothing so that's your first step. After that if you still feel like changing then you should take a Nikon in your hands and see how you feel about about using it. Only you can decide that.

Charles

[JSPhoto]

You don't need your reciept Just call Canon Service get the address and ship it to them. They have your registrastion info ( you did register it when you bought it right?) Then no problem, they will fix it and ship it back. All you pay is shipping.

What you may want to consider though is sending one or two lenses you use most and have them adjust them for the conditions you shoot in most, and guarantee the best results. Now it will cost you to have them adjust things, when you call see how much it will cost. That should help you out a bunch! (just make sure it's Canon lenses, they won't touch anyone elses lens) It is worth it though to have them adjusted to the conditions you shoot in.


JS

[drg]

If nothing else, your cancelled check provides a receipt as well! Whether you registered the camera or not, the dealers have records that show purchase and also get a piece of the warranty card system. Lots of avenues to have Canon help you with any actual problem.

On the focusing issue. The 20d has from its start had some well documented 'features' associatated with its AF. The center sensor is the only one that is a cross type sensor. The others in the diamond are either very horizontally or vertically sensitive. A focus area that contains an appropriately oriented edge that is out of the plane of desired focus, thus becomes the actual focus target. It often will appear that the camera is front or back focusing just because you don't know exactly what the camera is looking at and sensing.

That being said, there's another well documented issue going back to the first reviews regarding registration of the etched screen and the actual focus zones. They are notorious for not lining up exactly. I used one 20d (a fairly early one) that the left most zone in the diamond was really focusing in about the middle of the triangle of the three left AF zones as indicated in the finder. Really had me going for a while. This is fixable and Canon will do it. They all are apparently a little bit off and the actual zones are to one side or the other of the etched markings. Some a lot more so than the other. The h/v orientation also throws some people. Just be aware of the shape of the sensor.

Good luck and don't give up on Canon just yet.

[SmartWombat]

there's another well documented issue going back to the first reviews regarding registration of the etched screen and the actual focus zones. They are notorious for not lining up exactly

Even my brand new 1DmkIIN suffered from that, on the centre spot. The etched box was too high. That and the weird colours (it would't phtograph orange) made me get it swapped st hte dealer.

[Lionheart]

I would call Canon repair and give them a chance. They really were awful about 5 years ago, but the last few repairs and adjustments I sent in came back within 10 working days and my gear came back looking and working like new. They may ask you to send in your lenses to make sure it's the camera body and not the lenses. A camera is a camera is a camera. Some models are Edsels, and some aren't and even among the non-Edsels there lurks a lemon or two.

[JSPhoto]

Even my brand new 1DmkIIN suffered from that, on the centre spot. The etched box was too high. That and the weird colours (it would't phtograph orange) made me get it swapped st hte dealer.

SW - the issues your MKII N had are completly different than the 20D, and a completly different AF system.

As for the problem with Orange, that is NOT a camera issue, but in fact an issue of light and the color orange, red and occasionally yellow. It's all due to the pigment of the paint, light and digital technology. No matter how hard you try you will not get perfect orange unless it is the proper pigment for digital cameras. I learned this my first year shooting. Only one race car came out right, orange like it was supposed to be. I talked to the driver (nephew of Tom Sneva) and he said they tested different pigments of orange to get the right one that worked with digital cameras. They discovered it during a photo shoot and the car always looked red intead of orange. It took about 3 months for them to find the right orange.

JS

[BMWJNKY]

Canon recommends 300, 0.3, 0 for these settings. I use them in Photoshop CS.

I just tried these settings with some of my 20D photos and it makes them look like garbage. So like others have said it sounds like you got a bad body, just send it in and have Canon fix it.

[another view]

Try USM settings of 125 - 2 - 3 in Photoshop, that's much more "normal".

You paid for a camera, and they'll fix it for free - take them up on it. Nikon isn't without problems.

[Sebastian]

The USM settings give, 300, 0.3, 0, are great (albeit a little strong) for WEB POSTING. USM, sharpening in general, has to be done with the output method in mind. What works for web/monitor display will NOT work for print. Another View's settings are much better for full-res files intended for print output.

I personally use a preset of 150, 0.3, 0 for all my web posting, and I start at 125, 1, 0 for all my prints and tweak to suit the image.

That being said, the D100 was notorious for backfocusing when it came out. I owned three and not a single one exhibited it. I now have two 10Ds which don't have focusing issues, yet I know people that had nothing but problems with theirs. I think that if the manufacturer, any manufacturer, wants to fix it, give them the chance.

[jorgemonkey]

You should still be able to send in the camera to Canon to get it fixed. I went to send in my Nikon D70 and I couldn't find the reciept. All I had to do was bring in the card that was used to make the purchase, and the store called Nikon, who confirmed that I was the original owner, and it went it to get checked out no problems.