Nikon D700 vs. Canon EOS 5D Mark II

[zipperfoot]

Hey guys, me again, with the same inquiries.

I am a student going for photography in fall of this year, and I am looking to upgrade cameras. Most of what I do (almost all) is fashion photography and portraiture. I have been doing extensive research and talking to different people who have used all of the cameras I have been considering, and I *think* I have it narrowed down now to the Nikon D700 or the Canon EOS 5D (MkII). They are both exactly the same price and both have full frame sensors (which is a factor I include). Hearing what opinions you all have on them (including brands, lenses, options, etc.) would be greatly appreciated.

The last person I spoke with recommended the D700 because of its more focus points, it's fantastic performance in low light (which may not be a very common situation but would certainly help) and because of the famed Nikkor lenses (however, this also means they tend to run a little pricier... I have also noticed with Nikkor lenses that they tend to warp a little, but maybe this is just me and my inexperience with them talking. Plus then there's always Zeiss and other lenses). I also sort of like the way Canon is set up more, but... well.

Please let me know your opinions! Thanks.

EDIT: From what I've seen / heard so far, it seems like the D700 is the dream camera for journalism, portraiture, landscapes, and things that would really benefit from the extra focus points and extreme glass, whereas the Canon seems like it might be a better fit for what I'll be doing... I am also so far liking the way that the Canon sensor processes light more... Please let me know what you think!
(I am not very familiar with either brand - I have been using Olympus for the past five years.)
I have also read a few negative reviews on the 5D but have seen almost no negative reviews on the D700.

[Anbesol]

More focus points is not a real advantage in portraiture or fashion photography. I guess you gave up on the A850? Anyway, IMO *for your kind of use* the 21Mpix is a huge advantage and is the clear choice between those two. On their own they are great cameras, but for purposes of attaching to a studio - the 5D hands down. High ISO ability isn't squat when you only shoot from 100-400, and at those ISO's the resolution difference is huge between the 5D and D700.

'Famed Nikkor lens' is hogwash, you can get great lens from all Camera manufacturers, even the Tamrons and Sigmas are terrific lens (some models anyway). Besides, the range you want to cover for fashion photography will probably peter out at about 200mm full frame, probably start at ~24, thats an easy range that trillions of lens designs can cover on any platform. Nikon has great glass, but so does Canon, Sony, Zeiss, Pentax, Minolta, Sigma, Tamron, etc etc. Sometimes the Nikon cronies think they are the only people in the world who get good glass - thats just not true.

Canon's glass, by the way - is good enough for the president, and for playboy, I am sure it will also be good enough for you.

[zipperfoot]

More focus points is not a real advantage in portraiture or fashion photography.

You know, I was kind of thinking that when I started looking at work done between the 5D and the D700. Although I am still mildly concerned about the problems people have claimed to have about the focusing and having photos consistently too "soft" or photos that are not consistently anything, and change between soft and sharp. :\
And yes, for various reasons, I decided to give the a850 a pass.

Thanks so much for your input!! c:

[Franglais]

The D700 and the 5D Mk 2 are both great cameras (not that I've ever used either of them).

Advantages of the D700:

- better flash system
- better autofocus
- better low-ISO performance

Advantages of the 5D Mk 2

- More Mpix
- 100 ISO base sensitivity

I think I agree with Anebesol about the focus points.
(CORRECTION: I compared the D700 and 5D Mk2 autofocus points. On the D700 you can choose between 51, 21 and 9 autofocus points and the area covered by the 21-point option is similar to that covered by the 5D Mk2. I don't think the 5D Mk2 has any advantage)

In the studio I still use my D200 rather than my D300 (which is almost the same thing as the D700) because:

1. It has 100 ISO base sensitivity. The studio that I use is set up to give about f11 at 100 ISO which is perfect. If I start shooting at f16 at 200 ISO then diffraction may make the image softer. (I know I can set the D300 at 100 ISO with a custom setting but I'm concerned by overexposure)
2. It has 11 focus points that are arranged just right for pictures of people (I know that I can limit the number of focus points on the D300 but I still prefer the D200)

BTW I've never read that Nikon lenses have more distortion than Canon. Where did you pick up that piece of information?

(ADDENDUM: People say that Nikon are going to announce a new camera in February. An evolution of the D700 is possible. 12Mpix, 18Mpix, 24Mpix, who knows? Wait and see)

[zipperfoot]

Thank you for your input, Charles!
And it's not so much as a piece of information as it has been an observation.... perhaps an incorrect one at that, but it always just -seems- to me...

[Franglais]

Thank you for your input, Charles!
And it's not so much as a piece of information as it has been an observation.... perhaps an incorrect one at that, but it always just -seems- to me...

I usually go by the Chasseurs d'Images tests, but you probably can't get hold of this magazine (it's in French).

Check out this site: www.photozone.de

Compare the distortion figures for lenses that are strictly comparable, like the 17-55 f2.8, the 18-200 and the 85mm f1.8. Sometimes Canon is better, sometimes Nikon but there is no clear winner.

[zipperfoot]

I usually go by the Chasseurs d'Images tests, but you probably can't get hold of this magazine (it's in French).

Check out this site: www.photozone.de

Compare the distortion figures for lenses that are strictly comparable, like the 17-55 f2.8, the 18-200 and the 85mm f1.8. Sometimes Canon is better, sometimes Nikon but there is no clear winner.

Thank you very much! This helps a lot.

[Anbesol]

And how exactly does the D700 have a better flash system? Attatch a wireless trigger and it works the same for a D700 as it does the 5D, or the D40 or a rebel for that matter.

[Franglais]

And how exactly does the D700 have a better flash system? Attatch a wireless trigger and it works the same for a D700 as it does the 5D, or the D40 or a rebel for that matter.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

- If you're working in the studio with a radio-controlled release on the hotshoe then yes they do all work the same
- If you're out in the with dedicated slave flashes controlled TTL by the camera then the Nikon ILS system had an advantage over Canon up till recently (I don't know the details of the Canon system but I think that only the latest Canon cobra flash can do everything the Nikon system can)
- The D700 has a built-in flash which can be used as a Master to control the slave flashes so you don't have a have an expensive cobra on your camera just to control the others. The 5D Mk 2 doesn't have a built-in flash at all but the 7D does and it can be used as a Commander (I approve of the 7D - I think Canon did a nice job)

As I said in another discussion - more than half the fashion pictures I see in magazines are not shot in the studio but out in the field with what looks like a simple setup.

[drg]

And how exactly does the D700 have a better flash system? Attatch a wireless trigger and it works the same for a D700 as it does the 5D, or the D40 or a rebel for that matter.

Nikon's Creative Lighting System is frankly leaps and bounds beyond Canon's in several aspects. The in camera metering with the Color Matrix along side all the pre-measurement stuff going on just makes better exposures. The way multiple flashes talk to each other and the camera in the Nikon system makes the whole 'strobist' concept really shine (pun intended). The wireless triggers work differently in one system versus the other. Pre-flash, AF assist, color temp measurement have distinct differences in labeling and functionality. If all one is doing is using externals as 'dumb' slaves then much of the functionality of either Canon or Nikon's system flashes is being wasted.

I feel Nikon remains the flash king when it comes to putting a hot shoe mounted system strobe on and making a photo. (A few more comments about Nikon in my Hot Shoes Diaries Review might additionally 'illuminate' the topic )

On the balance I haven't seen anything you can't do with Canon lighting, it just is more work and may require more hardware in some cases.

If using external lights then of course the techniques and differences between systems is minimized or eliminated.

The D700 with its full frame sensor is a helluva great camera. That big sensor with the relatively low pixel count makes great images. If you truly need the greater pixel count of the Canon EOS 5D II then that will outweigh other considerations.

You will buy another camera body before you wear out either of these! Lens price is really in the noise as they are long term investments.

There is a difference in lens performance between Nikon and Canon. It is not what many want to you to believe (for various reasons) about one is better than the other. They can have a different look when the images are side by side. That is almost always eliminated as much as possible in post work as a manufacturer want their licensed registered colors and brand to appear identical across an entire campaign!

More questions?

[zipperfoot]

drg - =DD THANK YOU for your honest insight -- after having spoken with more people face-to-face and online, it really has been brought once again to my attention that it really is just wading through the differences, and through other people's vast sea of opinions and biases for that matter. Thanks for that.

Franglais - All of what you said I think is true -- you're right; most fashion stuff outside of the studio is one with pretty simple set-ups - I have done some of this type of work myself.

Thank you all for your insight, it has been very valuable to me when making my decision. c:

[Anbesol]

DRG - I still think its irrelevant as TTL and automated metering with flash means squat in studio.

I feel Nikon remains the flash king when it comes to putting a hot shoe mounted system strobe on and making a photo.

If using external lights then of course the techniques and differences between systems is minimized or eliminated.

Not just minimized, eliminated entirely. The lights on a strobe system flash when triggered, they flash the way YOU tell them to flash, not the camera. There is nothing special about the camera that happens before it triggers the flashes, it triggers it, they flash, the end. The only thing the camera needs to do at that point is sync properly.

As I said in another discussion - more than half the fashion pictures I see in magazines are not shot in the studio but out in the field with what looks like a simple setup.

Okay, thats true, but why does simple equate to TTL? Simple setups can be manual too.

And the situation with the stock flash as a commander - the 5D can still be set with a very simple RF trigger on hotshoe that achieves the same effect, and a small and simple investment. The lack of stock flash is obviously due to the huge full frame pentaprism, I cant see how you could complain about it when there is such an easy solution.

Anyway the 'color matrix metering' is usually the first thing I hear Nikon people call Nikons claim to the throne, which is sort of like saying 'Look this ferrari has a good automatic transmission!", truly, if you race the car, you want manual control over the transmission. Forget automation, its just lazy. Manual control will always be ideal.

[drg]

TTL Metering is anything but irrelevant in a studio permanent or temporary. Only taking head shots or yearbook pictures? Ever shoot 200 kids in a day ranging from Vietnamese to African American to corn fed blonds to that one Panamanian girl? Try getting really good lighting on all of them quickly the 'old fashioned way'. Someone will be blown out, someone green (and not from the cafeteria food), and a few will just be improperly exposed.

With TTL (and it doesn't have to be Nikon) it gets a lot easier and there is still plenty of manual control.

Multiple lights, be they system hot shoe flashes or third party big honkin' flash and crash or softboxes with a shooting cycle are far easier to measure 'at the camera' than running around for several minutes with a meter every few shots to make sure nothing has changed or is about to blow.

Now if I can control the aperture of the various lights, individually or in groups and also allow for a moving subject but still quench my remote lights or hair lights or front fills or side washes or whatever when I get the right exposure at the camera and do it from the camera as I'm moving around. Great!

Third party modules for most major lighting systems have Nikon functionality that allow for all these niceties and more with Remote Command ability. Canon and others too, but Nikon throws in several extras including auto white balancing for gels, better modulation of pre-flash and modeling flash and more sync speeds that work than the competition. You can mix and match corded and non corded lights more readily with the current Nikon system than others that are not major studio installation with separate command boxes.

The SB-900 offers more than just zoom for different focal lengths. It also has different lighting patterns.

Nikon also offers mini lights and macro lights that can be used in the same way as a ring flash, but combined with a big flash and fill flashes for very unique effects indoors or out.

O.K. just some of the features that are handy and highly usable.

Color Matrix metering, among other things, reads the exposure of the overall colors in a scene and not just the intensity. Think of it as a color temp meter providing added exposure input. Nikon has had a lot more time to build a reference for the sensor to know how it responds than I may want to take. Those ten of thousands of combination's that sit in that reference could just make that image work better than any I'm going to come up with no matter my prior experience as I didn't build that camera. Still I have great flexibility. This is not just for full automatic dummy mode by any means.

Shooting outdoors? It's minutes from sunset, a softbox just went poof, there's no extra assistant to run back to the truck for parts, but there's light if the angle of the shot is changed. I've had to scrap plans or guess with Canon and hope. This past summer with a Nikon D3 a wedding I was working on as one of the photogs had this happen. The remaining lights were adjustable from the camera and combined with the metering system the final couple of photos were just fine.

Actually there are some special things that happen at the camera or can before all the 'lights come up' including tweaking the focus, monitoring ambient light up to the point of exposure, adjusting the white balance for mixed or changing light (can and does happen in a studio more frequently than one might think) and of course the changes if the model isn't perfectly still.

There are many wireless third party solutions. At this point in the DSLR (non dMF) camera world there are more workable options with Nikon that produce solutions easier. It ultimately has an entry price tag and there are some situations that I just want more light and then I don't care what the label says. I'll get out the meters and try to build a good setup.

Automation isn't evil, just another tool that sometimes is the best.

[Anbesol]

Ever shoot 200 kids in a day ranging from Vietnamese to African American to corn fed blonds to that one Panamanian girl? Try getting really good lighting on all of them quickly the 'old fashioned way'. Someone will be blown out, someone green (and not from the cafeteria food), and a few will just be improperly exposed.

I've photographed several families in a single day, the biggest constant change that I need to do is moving the lights to accommodate the pose and their body shapes, moving those lights also allows me to control how much light gets to the subjects. I calibrate, so not even albinos or the darkest black people would be blown or crushed. I don't know why you think blowing their highlights is 'inevitable' , if you blow ANY of them its because you haven't properly calibrated the studio. A properly calibrated studio will have the whole spectrum within range, not just a certain kids skin tones. Yes, moving the lights changes things, but I know how it changes and what to expect.

reads the exposure of the overall colors in a scene and not just the intensity

I know what color matrix metering is. You have a fancy explanation of it, but the simple one is that its metering reads color instead of gray (specifically, RGB), so it more reliably automatically exposes high and lo key colors, the strange neonish and muddy kind of colors that don't translate perfectly to gray. Its a blessing for automation, granted, but I still don't think automation is where its at for working professionals. If you use automation with success, cool. I can't ever get TTL to work reliably (perhaps Sony's TTL sucks? never cared enough to find out), and I know what I'm doing and what to expect when I'm working manual. I can use lights in manual with consistent success, I've never found myself thinking 'gosh if only this were automatic'. It has never been a problem manually controlling lights for me, even when it needs to be done quickly and on the fly.

Doesn't sound like we'll be convincing each other of anything though. If you use TTL and like it - cool. If you think its useful in professional environments, then I guess we simply disagree.

[Franglais]

..
I know what color matrix metering is. You have a fancy explanation of it, but the simple one is that its metering reads color instead of gray (specifically, RGB), so it more reliably automatically exposes high and lo key colors, the strange neonish and muddy kind of colors that don't translate perfectly to gray..

The Nikon 3D Matrix metering system is more complex than that.

- A 1005 element sensor provides a measurement of the scene in colour
- This is compared with a database of 50,000 scene types
- The focussing distance provided by the lens is also taken into account

The camera chooses the most likely scene type and does the appropriate analysis (Nikon secret).

The result isn't always perfect, but it gets better with each generation of cameras. In some cases the result is excellent. My D300 with the SB800 in TTL BBL mode does fill-in flash outdoors very very well..

[zipperfoot]

TTL Metering is anything but irrelevant in a studio permanent or temporary. Only taking head shots or yearbook pictures? Ever shoot 200 kids in a day ranging from Vietnamese to African American to corn fed blonds to that one Panamanian girl?

cx teehee

Thanks guys for your arguing / input, it's actually pretty insightful! xD

[Anbesol]

The Nikon 3D Matrix metering system is more complex than that.

- A 1005 element sensor provides a measurement of the scene in colour
- This is compared with a database of 50,000 scene types
- The focussing distance provided by the lens is also taken into account

Those aren't things that distinguish Nikons color matrix metering from the crowd. The only truly unique thing they are doing is color instead of gray. Focus distance included in TTL metering is done by everybody for a while now.

Zipper - good!