Much ado about image grain.

[Majik_Imaje]

Well let me say this in regard to HIGH iso !!

FIRST OF ALL. In the old days (chuckle) to become a professional photographer you needed to CREATE STUNNING IMAGES.

PRO'S that worked for National Geographic had only one choice for film to use - ISO 25 !!!!

Today's breed of Automatic computer driven cameras that do all the work. are hard pressed to possess the SKILLS that NG photographers use. So instead they are off exploring HIGH ISO'S

Do you not know ??? the difference between 100 iso and 400 iso is only two F stops

So use a frigin tripod !! the difference between 400 iso and 800 iso is ONLY ONE F stop !!

The difference betwen 800 ISO & 1600 iso IS ONLY ONE F stop

In other words.. YOU CAN CREATE any image you want @ 100 ISO !! ALL YA need is a tripod - but most people are too lazy to use one or better yet the CORRECT TYPE.

FOR 50 years or longer. National Geographic astounded the entire world with skilled professional photographs only using Kodachorme ASA / ISO 25

Therein- lies the main difference between a skilled professional and a ?? experimental wannabe

This was created @ 100 ISO one minute @ F 45

[Photo-John]

It's true that great images were made before we had the technology we have now. I used to shoot motorcycle racing with ISO 100 slide film and a manual focus camera. It's also true that content should always come first. But neither of those things mean we should ignore the benefits of current technology. We definitely shouldn't get so caught up in camera features and specs that we lose sight of the goal (great photos). In the end the camera is just a tool for capturing pictures and the photographer is in charge. But if I follow your logic I will have to give up my car for a donkey cart. I like being able to cover some ground in a day - both with my camera and with my car.

A couple more points -

1) Sometimes one stop is the difference between a sharp photo and a soft one. I want every advantage.

2) A tripod doesn't freeze action

Thanks for your post. In case it isn't apparent, I like your message and point of view. But so far it seems it's my job to play devil's advocate in this thread

[Loupey]

...In other words.. YOU CAN CREATE any image you want @ 100 ISO !! ALL YA need is a tripod - but most people are too lazy to use one or better yet the CORRECT TYPE.

With all due respect, but I disagree with the above statement completely. When I'm trying to shoot a warbler on the wing hunting for insects or shooting macros in even the slightest of breezes or shooting super-telephotos when I can't open beyond f/4, I need to crank up the ISO as high as I'm capable of doing so for the intended purpose. Right now, I'm stuck at ISO 800 with my current camera for images I intend to sell up to 13"x19". It used to be ISO 200 with my first dSLR so I can't really complain.

And yes, each generation (except for my current one) upped the maximum useable ISO by 1 full stop each time. To me, that's HUGE! Each step allowed me to push my abilities and results a full notch each time. All thanks to higher ISO for the most part.

[Majik_Imaje]

1974 I made a fortune - from Kodak because I did something that was known to be IMPOSSIBLE !!

This all began with a woman who would not shut up and leave me alone - My wife !!

The location was inside the boston Gardens for the ice-capades ice show . I was at the 'far end of the STADIUM. up in the highest level of that place, it is dark except for center ice.

I have a Mamiya RB67 w/360 mm F 6.8 lens !! "I want photographs she said.. " I said there is not enough light for me to use this in here for those photos. Use your flash she said.. Ha !! That thing is not going to travel 200 feet to light the scene . no way !!

I want photographs she kept saying! The Sesame Characters were skating. She wanted posters for my daughters room. I have VPS 100 ISO film. People are skating 'fast' !!

I decide to go with the minimum shutter speed to hold this huge thing steady 1/250

the lens is open @ 6.8 so basically I am shooting @ EV 15 partly cloudy outside !!

but I am inside in the dark - yes there is light @ center ice. I create photographs

I develop the film +30% for each stop I had to compensate for.

C-41 process developer = 3:15 minutes / seconds precicesly !

I increased the temp by one degree and develop for 5:30 (101.5) instead of 100.5

I never ever thought in my wildest dreams that this was going to work. but I had to go through the motions to apease the other side.

OMG.. I just could not believe these results.. This can't be true. - I am throughly confused now.. this cannot be possible.

the next day I went outside and purposely underexposed film by 4 stops & six stops & 8 stops .

The results were most impressive. IN fact - further testng revealed this FACT !

On one roll of film - I exposed a few frames @ 100 ISO - then on that same roll I exposed frames @ 400 ISO 800 ISO & 1600 ISO. all this - on ONE ROLL of VPS

Every frame was goreous color and @ 800 ISO I could literaly place my hand on that photograph and the skin tones matched with no grain !! At 1600 there was very slight grain that was consistent with 35mm film characteristics !!

I sent all the neg's and prints to Kodak and they told me to get it patented !!!

We have been trying to do this for 60 years was there reply.

That was the start of Kodak relasing all the new high speed color films - Vericolor was phased out. They had already achieved what they wanted - they just didn't know it yet !!!

Now in today's digital world, I have found out, this can indeed be done again digitally with extremely impressive results that knock your socks off !!

It just depends on what you USE for imaje editing !!!

I have just recently (within the last two days) STOPPED using Adobe photoshop to edit / process my images. I found something ten times more powerful !!

[Photo-John]

It just depends on what you USE for imaje editing !!!

I have just recently (within the last two days) STOPPED using Adobe photoshop to edit / process my images. I found something ten times more powerful !!

So what are you using for image editing then? No matter what you use there are physical limitations based on the sensor, just as there are physical limitations based on the crystal structure of your film emulsion. Yes, we can push our film or digital images around a lot. And I do. But I'll take every bit of technological advantage I can afford. There's no reason to turn your nose up at what's available.

[Majik_Imaje]

Head on over to .. ..
Adobe.com and download Lightroom3 beta and play with it !!

Get your very best image and play and watch what happens. whoa it knocked me right over !!

[Photo-John]

Head on over to .. ..
Adobe.com and download Lightroom3 beta and play with it !!

Get your very best image and play and watch what happens. whoa it knocked me right over !!

Oh, I've been using Lightroom since the very first beta. It is great. I don't think it's a replacement for Photoshop, though. I use them both on almost every image. I'm glad you've discovered, though. It is a very powerful tool

[Loupey]

Aside from my standpoint regarding high ISO noise (which should be pretty evident by now), I think many people will fall into the hype (which is understandable hype by those who need and use it) who don't genuinely need it.

It would be unwise for someone who is a casual shooter (whatever that may mean) or one who doesn't need to use high ISO's on a regular basis to think that buying the latest camera with the improved high ISO performance will automatically improve the image quality for what he/she is shooting (at lower ISO's). It will be an expensive lesson.

So for those who don't use high ISO's in the first place, yes I agree there would be much ado about image grain.

[AgingEyes]

YOU CAN CREATE any image you want @ 100 ISO !! ALL YA need is a tripod - but most people are too lazy to use one or better yet the CORRECT TYPE.

How would you shoot with ISO 100 on a tripod for something like this?




Mind you, you don't have any say on the lighting.

Or this: