Digital SLR Cameras Forum

Digital SLRs Forum Discuss digital SLRs, lenses, RAW conversion, or anything else related to digital SLRs. You may also want to see the Nikon, Canon, and Sony camera forums.
Digital Camera Pro Reviews >>
Read and Write Digital SLR Reviews >>
Digital SLR Buyer's Guide >>
Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. #1
    Fluorite Toothpaste poker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,056

    Arrow Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    Before I left my Canon A2 film camera, I knew about the 1.6 mag issue in lower end DSLRs. I bought myself a used Digital Rebel in the hopes I can use that for a few years until DSLRs with 35mm size sensors would become affordable. Having a number of Canon lenses, I had to relearn how to use all of them with that darn 1.6 mag adjustment.

    One time I was using my 85mm f/1.8 USM lens and the family made me take a group shot. I was a block away just to get them all in the frame!!! Just kidding, but I was far since the lens was now more like a 135mm lens.

    I just bought a 30D since it matched the performance of my A2. I couldn't help it. Plus, I still couldn't afford the 5D even with a $300 Canon rebate. So I'm basically stuck with the APS-C size sensor for a while longer.

    MY QUESTION:

    Would you start buying lenses for APS-C size sensors OR would you keep buying lenses for 35mm BECAUSE you feel full frame DSLRs will become affordable as does most technology does in months to come?

    It would be painful to buy a $500 lens for APS-C size sensors and then you wouldn't be able to use it on your full frame DSLRs 2-3 years from now.

    Does the 1.6x magnification bother anyone else? How have you adjusted or what focal length for 35mm has suited your APS-C size DSLR for let us say event photography?

    What are you thoughts on this....please reply!
    Canon 5D MKII & Canon 7D

  2. #2
    Panarus biarmicus Moderator (Sports) SmartWombat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,750

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    I would buy 35mm lenses. Not the EF-S lenses.
    Not on quality grounds, my EF-S 10-22 is pretty good.
    But when the prices are similar, getting the EF lenses means you can upgrade to the 5D and get really wide angle.
    PAul

    Scroll down to the Sports Forum and post your sports pictures !

  3. #3
    Learning more with every "click" mjs1973's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Mineral Point, WI, USA
    Posts
    7,562

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    I'm sticking with 35mm lenses as I still use my Elan 7N. I'm about 99% digital, but I'm sticking with the full frame lenses because someday, I too would like a FF digital body.
    Mike

    My website
    Twitter
    Blog


    "I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view."
    Aldo Leopold

  4. #4
    Be serious Franglais's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    3,367

    Nikon user speaks

    Quote Originally Posted by manacsa
    Before I left my Canon A2 film camera, I knew about the 1.6 mag issue in lower end DSLRs. I bought myself a used Digital Rebel in the hopes I can use that for a few years until DSLRs with 35mm size sensors would become affordable. Having a number of Canon lenses, I had to relearn how to use all of them with that darn 1.6 mag adjustment.

    One time I was using my 85mm f/1.8 USM lens and the family made me take a group shot. I was a block away just to get them all in the frame!!! Just kidding, but I was far since the lens was now more like a 135mm lens.

    I just bought a 30D since it matched the performance of my A2. I couldn't help it. Plus, I still couldn't afford the 5D even with a $300 Canon rebate. So I'm basically stuck with the APS-C size sensor for a while longer.

    MY QUESTION:

    Would you start buying lenses for APS-C size sensors OR would you keep buying lenses for 35mm BECAUSE you feel full frame DSLRs will become affordable as does most technology does in months to come?

    It would be painful to buy a $500 lens for APS-C size sensors and then you wouldn't be able to use it on your full frame DSLRs 2-3 years from now.

    Does the 1.6x magnification bother anyone else? How have you adjusted or what focal length for 35mm has suited your APS-C size DSLR for let us say event photography?

    What are you thoughts on this....please reply!
    I AM buying lenses for my APS-C Nikons. I've switched over to thinking in terms of focal lengths for this format. FF = Film Frame = the past for me.

    Charles

  5. #5
    Nature/Wildlife Forum Co-Moderator Loupey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Central Ohio
    Posts
    7,856

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    Personally, I would buy ONLY 35mm rated lenses.

    I believe that the 35mm frame size has been such a long and strong standard that camera makers are still gravitating their digital cameras in that direction. If Nikon could get their hands on a full frame sensor, I think they would jump all over that. Then, Canon would have some real competition (sorry Nikon folks) and would start to offer more full frame bodies at better prices. At least with 35mm lenses, you can wait until the dust clears and still be able to use them later.

    You can go both ways with full frame lenses. You can only go one way with the EF-S lenses.
    Please do not edit or repost my images.

    See my website HERE.


    What's a Loupe for anyway?

  6. #6
    has-been... another view's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Rockford, IL
    Posts
    7,649

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    And now for something completely different...

    I don't mind the 1.5x crop factor on my Fuji (Nikon system). I just bought a 10-20 lens so I finally have a real wide angle lens again; my 20-35 just didn't cut it. To get a "real" wide angle lens on a 1.5x or 1.6x camera that still works with FF, you'll be limited to a 14mm prime. They're great lenses but expensive and don't offer the convenience of a zoom. A 20mm prime used to be one of my favorites with film, but with lenses this wide it's really nice to be able to zoom a mm or two - plus you have less chance of getting the sensor dirty.

    When I got my DSLR, my 80-200 f2.8 became (essentially) a 300 f2.8. For $500, I'm back in the wide angle game and I can always sell it if someday I have a FF camera. The couple hundred I'll lose by selling it is a drop in the bucket of a FF DSLR...

  7. #7
    Member ekstasis16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    Posts
    112

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    I don't mind investing in a few EF-S lenses. The format doesn't look like it will die off in the near future, and once I get a 30D, I don't imagine I'll be upgrading for at least 2-3 years, and even then I'll still have it as a backup.

    My main reason for sticking with a 1.6x body (aside from sticker shock of moving to a 5D) is that it helps immensely in sports photography. My relatively cheap 300mm with a 1.4x TC pushes out to the 35mm equivalent of 672mm! Anything that gets me that kind of range without having to shell out $6000 has my seal of approval on it.

    For wide angle, the 10-22 works just fine for now. Of course, when I can afford it I'll grab a 5D to do some real landscape photography. But in the meantime since I'm stuck with 1.6x, the 10-22 and the new 17-55 2.8 IS are great for my purposes. Of course, your mileage may vary.
    30D, 70-200 2.8L IS, 300 4L IS, 24-70 2.8L, 10-22, 85 1.8, 580EX
    Web Designer & Developer
    www.erikhagen.net
    www.callutheran.edu
    www.clusports.com

  8. #8
    has-been... another view's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Rockford, IL
    Posts
    7,649

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by ekstasis16
    But in the meantime since I'm stuck with 1.6x, the 10-22 and the new 17-55 2.8 IS are great for my purposes.
    I'll bet you'll be pretty impressed with this setup for landscapes too. With a super wide lens, it becomes even more important to level the camera because of perspective distortion. However, you can also use that to your advantage too...

  9. #9
    Be serious Franglais's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    3,367

    I'm really pleased

    Quote Originally Posted by another view
    And now for something completely different...

    I don't mind the 1.5x crop factor on my Fuji (Nikon system). I just bought a 10-20 lens so I finally have a real wide angle lens again; my 20-35 just didn't cut it. To get a "real" wide angle lens on a 1.5x or 1.6x camera that still works with FF, you'll be limited to a 14mm prime. They're great lenses but expensive and don't offer the convenience of a zoom. A 20mm prime used to be one of my favorites with film, but with lenses this wide it's really nice to be able to zoom a mm or two - plus you have less chance of getting the sensor dirty.

    When I got my DSLR, my 80-200 f2.8 became (essentially) a 300 f2.8. For $500, I'm back in the wide angle game and I can always sell it if someday I have a FF camera. The couple hundred I'll lose by selling it is a drop in the bucket of a FF DSLR...
    I'm really impressed with the results I'm getting with an APS-C sensor. The D70 is like 24x36 film and the D200 is like medium format quality.

    I really like how my lenses are transformed by the sensor format. My 28mm prime has the same view as a 42mm - my favourite 24x36 film focal length. My 28-70 becomes the equivalent of a 42-105 f2.8 which is just fine too for some things (especially people with flash).

    I don't see what all the fuss is about.

    Charles

  10. #10
    Nature/Wildlife Forum Co-Moderator Loupey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Central Ohio
    Posts
    7,856

    What do you think?

    Hey, Manacsa

    Just curious if these opinions helped you out. Or are you back to what you were originally thinking at beginning of this thread?
    Please do not edit or repost my images.

    See my website HERE.


    What's a Loupe for anyway?

  11. #11
    Nature/Wildlife Forum Co-Moderator Loupey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Central Ohio
    Posts
    7,856

    Open Mouth, Insert Foot

    Quote Originally Posted by another view
    For $500, I'm back in the wide angle game and I can always sell it if someday I have a FF camera. The couple hundred I'll lose by selling it is a drop in the bucket of a FF DSLR...
    Hmmm, very interesting indeed. Intrigued, I went out today to check out a Tokina AT-X 12-24mm f/4. So if I bought this $500 lens and a $1400 Canon 30D, it saves me $1,100 over the 5D after their agonizingly slow rebate response time (I'm still waiting for my $$$ from the last round ). 19.2mm effectively verses the 17mm of my current lens on the 5D - close enough in my book.

    Don't know too much about the Tokina yet, but perhaps this thread just saved me a grand and some change...
    Please do not edit or repost my images.

    See my website HERE.


    What's a Loupe for anyway?

  12. #12
    Member danag42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    141

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    Just to be clear, APS-C has a 1.5 crop factor. I beleive Canon's sensor is called APS-H.

    Canon seems to be the only camera maker that's using "full frame" 35mm size sensors. Seems like the other manufacturers have decided that the smaller sensor is the new standard.

    With medium format backs reaching 6x4.5 size, the real top end is going to be medium format again. Larger sensros, larger photosites, less noise, more dynamic range. Sorry, folks, but it looks like medium format is going to be back in the studio and 35mm size cameras will be back to sports and news.

    I bit the bullet and bought the Pentax 12-24, it looks like the real pro Pentax is going to be the 645 again. I'll just have to sell my 4x5 to get it.

  13. #13
    Nature/Wildlife Forum Co-Moderator Loupey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Central Ohio
    Posts
    7,856

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by danag42
    With medium format backs reaching 6x4.5 size, the real top end is going to be medium format again. Larger sensros, larger photosites, less noise, more dynamic range. Sorry, folks, but it looks like medium format is going to be back in the studio and 35mm size cameras will be back to sports and news.
    I dunno. Medium format have lost a LOT of ground during the last several years. During my visit yesterday to my local shop, I saw yet another complete Hassy system (about 4 bodies and 7 lenses) being traded in at auction-level prices. I've seen this scenario over and over. It's hard for me to imagine these previous MF owners coming back to it - they obviously saw something persuasive about the DSLRs and they would have to have overwhelmingly better reasons to switch back to digital-MF. Also, I do modeling on the side and in the course of the last 3 years, every photographer except one has used exclusively DSLR's. And even that one photographer griped about using his Hassy instead of his digital; but that was what his customer wanted.

    Don't get me wrong. I have a medium format system. Would love to get a digital back if it didn't cost me $10,000. But demand hasn't been sufficient to bring new products to the medium format lineup. I don't think it ever will. Unfortunately, medium format is like the Betamax (vs. VHS) of the past - better yes, but lack of demand killed it.

    As for smalller sensors. Nikon is 1.5 and Canon is 1.6 (APS-C) and 1.3 (APS-H). Doesn't sound like a standard to me yet. With all the primary and secondary manufacturers still making 35mm lenses, I still think that Nikon and Canon will eventually gravitate to the full frame sensor. How long before that standard is reached is my question. Buying the 30D or equivalent is a short term answer for those who do not want to wait until that happens. Then again, with digital isn't everything "short term" anyway ?
    Please do not edit or repost my images.

    See my website HERE.


    What's a Loupe for anyway?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,430

    Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by danag42
    Just to be clear, APS-C has a 1.5 crop factor. I beleive Canon's sensor is called APS-H.

    Canon seems to be the only camera maker that's using "full frame" 35mm size sensors. Seems like the other manufacturers have decided that the smaller sensor is the new standard.

    With medium format backs reaching 6x4.5 size, the real top end is going to be medium format again. Larger sensros, larger photosites, less noise, more dynamic range. Sorry, folks, but it looks like medium format is going to be back in the studio and 35mm size cameras will be back to sports and news.

    I bit the bullet and bought the Pentax 12-24, it looks like the real pro Pentax is going to be the 645 again. I'll just have to sell my 4x5 to get it.
    hasselblad came out with full frame first, in 2001.

  15. #15
    Be serious Franglais's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    3,367

    Challenge some of this

    Quote Originally Posted by Loupey
    I dunno. Medium format have lost a LOT of ground during the last several years. During my visit yesterday to my local shop, I saw yet another complete Hassy system (about 4 bodies and 7 lenses) being traded in at auction-level prices. I've seen this scenario over and over. It's hard for me to imagine these previous MF owners coming back to it - they obviously saw something persuasive about the DSLRs and they would have to have overwhelmingly better reasons to switch back to digital-MF. Also, I do modeling on the side and in the course of the last 3 years, every photographer except one has used exclusively DSLR's. And even that one photographer griped about using his Hassy instead of his digital; but that was what his customer wanted.

    Don't get me wrong. I have a medium format system. Would love to get a digital back if it didn't cost me $10,000. But demand hasn't been sufficient to bring new products to the medium format lineup. I don't think it ever will. Unfortunately, medium format is like the Betamax (vs. VHS) of the past - better yes, but lack of demand killed it.

    As for smalller sensors. Nikon is 1.5 and Canon is 1.6 (APS-C) and 1.3 (APS-H). Doesn't sound like a standard to me yet. With all the primary and secondary manufacturers still making 35mm lenses, I still think that Nikon and Canon will eventually gravitate to the full frame sensor. How long before that standard is reached is my question. Buying the 30D or equivalent is a short term answer for those who do not want to wait until that happens. Then again, with digital isn't everything "short term" anyway ?
    I understand what you're saying about medium format. I have a Hasselblad but the results I get from the APS-C sensor in the D200 are so good and I have so much control over it in software that I'm switching over the the D200 for my studio work (as a humble amateur).

    But about the 24x36 "standard" - it certainly was a standard in the days of film when you had to get the thing processed by a lab. There were two sorts of cameras - point & shoots and SLR's. Serious users used SLR's.

    But now - no lab so the sensor size is only important for those who have a DSLR with several lenses and for outright performance.

    - A lot of my friends who used to have SLR's have gone over to digital point and shoot or bridge cameras because they're smaller and lighter than their SLR and yet give good results
    - the vast majority of amateurs still using a DSLR (including me) and many professionals are finding that the APS-C sensor is more than adequate for their needs and is bringing some exciting new possibilities (my 18-200 VR is on order..)

    I think that cameras with larger sensors will still be available but they will be niche products for specialists, more expensive than the APS-C equivalent. 24x36 will no longer be the "standard". But who cares? You pay your money and you take your choice..

    Charles

  16. #16
    has-been... another view's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Rockford, IL
    Posts
    7,649

    Re: Open Mouth, Insert Foot

    Quote Originally Posted by Loupey
    So if I bought this $500 lens and a $1400 Canon 30D, it saves me $1,100 over the 5D after their agonizingly slow rebate response time
    Yep... I've shot with the Nikon 12-24 and it's a great lens. I hear the Tokina is almost as good at about half the money - difference being in wide open performance which is somewhat usual with more expensive lenses. However, I just bought the Sigma 10-20 for the same price as the Tokina. Disadvantage is that it only goes to 20 instead of 24 (which is a pretty big difference) and it's an f4-5.6 variable aperture lens. But - it goes out to a crazy 10mm, still uses 77mm filters and focuses to about 9". 10mm at f4, focused to 9" will give you DOF almost to the front element...

    Shot a little bit with it only a couple of times but I'm pretty happy with it. Here's a shot from the other night at sound check before we played. I was almost touching the cymbal in the foreground and it's at 10mm. ISO1600 on a Fuji S2, no noise reduction and just a little dodging/burning in PS (dodging the cymbals in the foreground, that's why they're noisy - no flash).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue-dscf0081.jpg  

  17. #17
    Fluorite Toothpaste poker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,056

    Re: What do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loupey
    Hey, Manacsa

    Just curious if these opinions helped you out. Or are you back to what you were originally thinking at beginning of this thread?
    The thread has grown with a lot of point of views.

    A few days ago I was cleaning up all my cameras I realize I've picked up three (D)SLRs since 2000. I think that is a lot for an average joe. That also tells me that there are more cameras in my future. One of these days I feel I will end up with a full frame sensor by either buying CANON's future affordable full frame DSLR or by picking up a 5D or a 1D used. My 30D will get downgraded to backup camera at that point.

    After looking at the cost of some higher end EF-S lenses, I'd rather use that money towards a lens I can use on both cameras and not just one type.

    As for now, without a lot of fancy technical reasons and more for cost benefits, I'd rather invest in a lens I can use on both formats.
    Canon 5D MKII & Canon 7D

  18. #18
    Nature/Wildlife Forum Co-Moderator Loupey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Central Ohio
    Posts
    7,856

    Future Pricing

    Quote Originally Posted by Franglais
    I think that cameras with larger sensors will still be available but they will be niche products for specialists, more expensive than the APS-C equivalent.

    Charles
    Interesting point about the cost. I was recently thinking about the construction differences between the 30D and 5D Canon examples. Aside from the electronic features, mechanically they are very similar. So the sensor is still the only major difference between the two. I wonder how much more it costs Canon to produce the FF CMOS verses the APS-C? At $3,300 a pop, I think that the initial developmental costs for the FF has been recouped by now so, in going further, the cost difference has got to be fairly minimal if production volumes were similar. I'm thinking like $20 to $50 difference in sensors (I'm talking cost not price). In an age when one can buy a laptop for $500, the electronics isn't what keeps prices high.

    Like everything else, all that is missing is competition and demand. If Canon didn't currently have a monopoly on the FF sensor line, it stands to reason that the 5D could be easily offered under $2k.

    It will be interesting to see if consumer demand will be sufficient to drive Nikon and others to produce a competing FF sensor. Until that happens, Charles, then perhaps your point about a non-FF standard will play out to be correct.
    Please do not edit or repost my images.

    See my website HERE.


    What's a Loupe for anyway?

  19. #19
    Be serious Franglais's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    3,367

    According to some sources..

    Quote Originally Posted by Loupey
    Interesting point about the cost. I was recently thinking about the construction differences between the 30D and 5D Canon examples. Aside from the electronic features, mechanically they are very similar. So the sensor is still the only major difference between the two. I wonder how much more it costs Canon to produce the FF CMOS verses the APS-C? At $3,300 a pop, I think that the initial developmental costs for the FF has been recouped by now so, in going further, the cost difference has got to be fairly minimal if production volumes were similar. I'm thinking like $20 to $50 difference in sensors (I'm talking cost not price). In an age when one can buy a laptop for $500, the electronics isn't what keeps prices high.

    Like everything else, all that is missing is competition and demand. If Canon didn't currently have a monopoly on the FF sensor line, it stands to reason that the 5D could be easily offered under $2k.

    It will be interesting to see if consumer demand will be sufficient to drive Nikon and others to produce a competing FF sensor. Until that happens, Charles, then perhaps your point about a non-FF standard will play out to be correct.
    I've been following this sort of debate on another, particularly awful forum (that I won't name here where people are generally pretty reasonable). There do seem to be a few electronics engineers on the other forum and what they say is as follows.

    Camera sensors (and other devices) are made from a large piece of silicon with multiple sensors (or whatever) on it. You cut up the large piece to get your individual components. Any components which aren't absolutely perfect are thrown away.

    The price of a single large silicon wafer is more or less constant. The reason that electronics prices keep in falling is because the size of the components keeps on shrinking so you get more components on a wafer. Plus as size increases the chances of having a defect increases exponentially.

    As the size of camera sensors is important - the whole point of this discussion - there are two conclusions:

    - prices of camera sensors will not fall too far because there are only so many that you can make from a single wafer
    - making a perfect large sensor is much more difficult than making a perfect small sensor simply because it is bigger.

    People speculate that it costs 10x more to make a 24x36 sensor than a APS-C sensor. Nobody knows except the manufacturers but it gives you an idea of the manufacturing progress made by Canon to be able to produce the 5D.

    Charles

  20. #20
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,430

    Re: According to some sources..

    While I could see and understand a lot of truth in that, I think 10x is probably quite a bit exagerated.

    Also - from what I understand of the silicon manufacturing process (admittedly very little), it seems that before the silicon wafers are purchased they are VERY rigerously tested for quality and possible defects. Judging by how thurough wafer manufacturers are with them, I would find it hard to believe the end result is half trashed bits.

    Heres a VERY interesting breakdown of the process, i highly reccomend everybody take a nice read, it will bring out the inner nerd in all of us! http://www.svmi.com/education/siliconwafers.shtml

  21. #21
    Member danag42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    141

    Angry Re: Entertaining the APS-C Sensor or the 1.6x Issue

    In the commercial world in New York (the guys who work for he big agencies) pixelitis has spread like the plague. I have a friend who bought a DCS-14 back on a three-year payment plan, only to have it deemed "obsolete" in a year and a half. So he has a $15,000 paperweight!

    Nowadays the agencies want the Liaf or Phase One backs with the full frame 645 sensors, and they want 32 metgapixels. I guess you really need all that information to print a full page ad on a 150 line screen offset press. Perhaps there are hidden messages somewhere in those big old dots, that the extra megapixels put in.

    Or Madison Avenue has been hoist on their own petard. My friend argues adamantly that you just can't get the quality of depth on the smaller cameras. He may have a point.

    But when has the market ever been logical? We've made our bed and now we get to sleep in it.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •