Hi Folks,
The question about a place of photography in art has been debated since the first daggerotype was developed. In my opinion, the real problem of photography as a means of artistic expression is in its incredible popularity and seeming ease of achieving seemingly perfect results. In order to create a painting one needs to master a rather complicated technique and then spend hours actually painting. WIth photography it is easy, you just press a little button. Countless "artists" who do not put any effort into taking a photo other than pressing that little button do really undermine reputation of photography because they create a steady stream of substandard, mindless and simply boring photos that can tickle fancies only of those who took them.
Many people seem to be interested more in technical aspects than in what photography is really about. Even here on Viewfinder ad other forums I see a lot of pictures that fall into a category of "look-at-the-test-shot-with-my-new-lens". Guys, gals, don't you see that IT IS JUST BLOODY BORING?????
If you have ever been among real artists, you must know what I mean. People do not talk endlessly about their brushes or easels. They just do not! Why should we? People do not paint stuff like "This is me in front of a Buckingham Palace". Why should we? Are we any less creative?
I wrote this because I am just so blarsted bored with pictures that I see here!!! You think photosig.com is any better? Wel, I'll tell you one thing, it sucks too. Let's do something... Let's have a gallery here that will blow peoples' minds away, let's not talk nonsense, but shoot creatively and share your works of ART.

Irakly,

I think I share your motivation as an artist, and agree with you on many points when it comes to photography as art. As I've said before, at this point in my career I almost think of myself as a painter, and work much the same way. I truely believe the analogy is a strong one.

Still, I don't think it serves a positive purpose to generalize and severely criticize the members here by throwing a blanket "put down" on the entire body of work being posted as you've done.

First of all, artistic vision is most often a gift, and those that don't have it outright from the start usually take quite a long time to develop it, if they do at all. This site is specifically tailored to beginners and less experienced shooters, certainly non-professionals, and I think it is pretty unfair to suddenly expect remarkable results from everyone and rant when you don't see them.

People WITHOUT artistic vision have the right to share their work, too...

Also, you are assuming that dynamic artistic statements and expressions should be the pinnacle and ultimate goals for EVERY photographer, when in fact that's something that each person has to decide for themselves.

Truth is, many folks take pictures to relax, to have a lasting memory of something, to help them make sense of the world better, because they like the science of it, as a tax write-off, or simply to have a hobby. Often these motivations have nothing to do with art...

Despite the lack of profound images on this site sometimes, I think the members are constantly challenging themselves by shooting to the best of their abilities, and more importantly, trying hard to learn so they can get better. IMO, that's all we have the right to ask of them...

BTW, being immersed in the world of art, you of all people should realize that virtually ALL artisitc pursuits and media are in effect a "sea of mediocrity", IOW (just as you say about photography) 90% of all painting in the world is mediocre, 90% of all sculpture in the world is mediocre, 90% of all pottery, etc., etc., etc. That's what makes great art special and stand out so much...

Look, I understand your frustration, and as I said, I agree with you in principle. It's just that you are never going to turn this site into something that looks like your web site. It is much better to embrace its real purpose: to nurture the excitement and fun and satisfaction of photography for as many people as possible, and let them decide how artistic to make the images.

I like your post.

But I don't think it's accurate.

The most interesting part of photography for me IS the technical aspect, and I could talk tech all day. I am not an artist. I am not a professional. Lots of us aren't.

Like Ghandi said, "Be the change you want in the world", don't add a post that is exaclty what you are saying we shouldn't add.

Besides - Professionals don't use the internet, they are too busy taking photos. And I doubt artists every get together and stroke eachother over how profoud their art is - they artists I know talk about themselves... and what brushes they use.

God if ART is that narrow minded, then I will just stick with what I do and be done with it.

Photography to me, is capture moments in time that I can share with others, keep records of events and remember as I grow old.

I think Artists take things too seriously most of the time hence why they end up, insane, kill themselves, totally isolated and probably never get to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

Irakly I respect your ART but your comments are a bit over the top, not what I would have expected comming from you.

Although I could also read these comments as trying to stimulate peoples thought processes as well, helping to stimulate maybe something different for a change as well.

I'm an artist in a traditional way: charcoal and paper, pastels, lost-wax casting. I haven't worked hard to make my photography "art" yet. I'm still working on mastering technique so that when I do seriously turn my attention towards art, I get it right. But I have taken *some* great shots, and am looking forward to many more.

As far as this site, I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this, but this is not the forum I've chosen to show my "best" work. No one here has seen my best. Well, ok, I posted very small versions of 4 shots that are among my best. But I've reserved my Best shots to show In Person to people I see Face to Face. When I've accumulated enough, I'll show them in a Brick-and-Mortar Gallery. For as much of a computer/internet geek as I am, I'm not trusting my best to a medium I have so little control over.

What I DO post here are experiments, new things I'm trying, I want to hear comments from people who are more experienced than I as to whether they think they work. I post fun things. I propose ideas and share my opinion. Just recently I tried something entirely new because of a thread here: photographing my body artistically. What fun! And I pushed my own envelope in terms of lighting and post-processing, working in new and experimental ways to get some interesting results.

I never thought this would be an art site. In fact, when I first found this place I was afraid it would be all about equipment (photographyREVIEW.com). I'm very pleased with the great variety of ideas, equipment, talent, and subject matter I've been exposed to here.

If you're truly bored here, there are other sites. DPChallenge.com is exclusively about artistic photography challenges, and if you win enough ribbons there then you can enter closed "Master Challenges". You might enjoy that.

I'm not as eloquent as most on this site, so I'll start by saying "What Steve said". Because art is so subjective, I think it's just as bad to look down upon those who are interested mainly in technical perfection as it is to get up on a soapbox and tell the world that you know the difference between real art and what is boring. "Real" artists produce just as many bad and boring paintings as the photographers who enjoy the new technology and are producing technically perfect but uninspired images ...my opinion.
<p>Most of us here on this site are here not because they are trying to create a masterpiece each time they press the shutter, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, rather they are here simply for the enjoyment of the medium and the community.
<p>Your photography, for me, is unique and creative, others may think it's crap, and who is to say who is right or wrong? Many folks here do not have the time, money, desire, or interest to put into this craft that you have, and if the images posted are BLOODY BORING, so what? There is a place in the world for works of art and a place in the world for a snap of the family dog. Everyone has a right to criticize, but unless they can admit to themselves that what they are saying is purely their own opinions, their comments mean absolutely nothing...to me, and that's MY opinion.

Hi Irakly,

It's good to see you around! I just want to express my thoughts on your post. Initially when I read it, because I didn't agree I felt a bit defensive. However this morning I have somewhat of a different perspective. I still don't agree with your "vision" of what type of images should or should not be posted here. I also don't agree that people post bad images or "crap" here. However, IMO Viewfinder is the right place to post your views. I must add that you came on too strong and made it feel like a personal attack. I can see why people would feel offended. :eek:

You've been coming here on and off for a long time and many here respect your work and have benefited from your critiques and advice. IMO this thread has the potential to become an interesting discussion which may or may not include what consitutes art for each person, etc. We can certainly learn from your experience and expertise.

Personally I have learned just about everything I know about photography on PR. My first photo was shot on the way home after purchasing my first SLR. The subject was a bunch of sea gulls sitting around a gray parking lot on a cloudy day. Because people have been patient with me here, my "vision" has improved immensely. Probably none of my photos are a work of art in the eyes of some, but I have photographs that still thrill me when I look at them because I captured what I had in my mind and heart.

One more reminder - Viewfinder is the forum set up for enjoying a wide range of topics. It wouldn't be expected that everyone's images include their best work. :)

Liz

I like a lot of what you are saying Irakly, but I think photography is art period...
At it's least photography is art for the masses, readily available and easy to do. At it's best any photographic master piece belongs right next to a master piece done in any of the "traditional mediums".

Photography has the fortune and perhaps the misfortune of being for a creative endeavor and a technical one too. The uses for photography are limitless and can be far more creative than the "traditional mediums" Look at photography's scientific applications; have you ever looked at a photograph of an atom or cell? Talk about technical and artisitic!

Brian

Counting 1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10

The bottom line of your thread is that you want photography to be respected as an art form by everybody and to achieve this every photographer has to meet certain standards. This is however never going to happen of course.

You can't handle it emotionally, so you start this little crying and flaming session.

This is one of those threads that doesn't lead to anything, a thread that's full of clichés and doesn't improve any of our photographic or artistic skills or increase our knowledge in any way.

Follow your own advice; "let's not talk nonsense".

Irakly,

I agree with you almost entirely, but not in the target of your frustrations. I share the same feelings, but they are directed at *ME*, I am frustrated with the broing images *I* am taking, and frustrated with trying to break that mold. I think where you stray in your post is that you direct it at everyone. I understand your frustrations, and I agree with them, but I think your target doesn't deserve it.

I hate to say this, but I think to create a library of really awesome stuff you are looking in the wrong place. Like Steve said, this is an enthusiast forum, and though some here, including yourself, have this down to an art form, the rest of us do not, and most importantly, some don't WANT to get tot hat level.

On a side note, for someone like myself that does want to reach such a level, what should be done? How did you get to where you are? How, as a group, can we help foster an environment where people can hope to achieve this? I am sincere, I want to know for myself, and also for the others here. Let's get this thread going towards a more positive direction.

It's really nice to see you around again, any chance you can make it to Chicago in November?

Your criticism is misplaced. Photography is much more than just art. Most people have no other outlet; drawing, painting, sculpting take a lot of natural talent they don't possess. "Clicking the button" makes art accessible.

Does clicking the button have to have artistic merit? Of course not! The vast majority of photographers are looking for memories, the memories promised by the old Kodak ads. They want photos of their children, their freinds, the important and not so important aspects of their lives. Most of all, they want to share these moments with others. Artistic merit is not the priority.

Yes, much of what is produced is not art and never will be. So what? Enjoy the fact that these people's efforts are allowing you the chance to see a little bit of their lives. It costs nothing and hurts no one to pass it by if you want.

By the way, you are right about the technology. There are people for whom the equipment is so much more important then actually taking photographs! I have never understood this.

Arent't we the greatest?

In order to create a painting one needs to master a rather complicated technique and then spend hours actually painting. WIth photography it is easy, you just press a little button.
I majored in Art in college and spent hours perfecting my work, as you say; but nothing compared to the time spent trying to master the art of photography, both technically and artistically. In my opionion, it's just another medium.

Countless "artists" who do not put any effort into taking a photo other than pressing that little button do really undermine reputation of photography because they create a steady stream of substandard, mindless and simply boring photos that can tickle fancies only of those who took them.Have you seen the crap that comes out of an art class? Once in a great while someone comes up with something acceptable. Why? Because it takes a lot of crap to get to the experience you need to produce a work of art. The same with photography. Luckily we don't have to pay for art school to get feedback we can use to advance our skill..[/QUOTE]
If you have ever been among real artists, you must know what I mean. People do not talk endlessly about their brushes or easels. They just do not!
No, they talk endlessly about themselves and how deep they are! Talk about BLOODY BORING!

Let's have a gallery here that will blow peoples' minds away, let's not talk nonsense, but shoot creatively and share your works of ART.If a traditional artist has "works of art" they would be displaying them in a show or museum, not in their classroom. If we had "photographic works of art" do you think we would dispaly them here? Dream on. You don't have a hold on reality if you do.

I wrote this because I am just so blarsted bored with pictures that I see here!!!
Apparently you're not bored with your own pics, so good look at those.
Typical of traditional artist...big ego.

Try not to forget that either world, Art, or Photograhy, or anyway man expresses himself is because of the joy of creating. Yes we can all improve, that's why we seek help from others who choose our same medium to express themselves.
Kit

I try to treadmill two miles everyday. Am I going to compete in the Olympics? Nope, not a chance. Does that make it less enjoyable or worthwhile for me? Nope.

For example. Yesterday, I bought a new body. However, with everything going on right now, I won't have time for at least 3 weeks to try and do anything I might even possibly small chance consider art. A half hour in the backyard was all I could fit in. Still, I was excited, and wanted to share. Should I not have posted these because they were just snapshots?

Ideally, every now and then, we could all produce "art". However, until then, I don't think that we should not share images that don't reach that standard.

adina

If you find that the images here are not giving you a "wow" factor, then visit another forum. I am a member at a few pay forums that are 100% professional photographers and the images that I see there are just awe inspiring.

Yesterday, I bought a new body. A new body?? Dang! Where do you get them? I want one.. heh kidding. Now you won't have to work out so much!
I enjoyed your pics by the way and agree with you also.
Kit

I think I understand what;s trying to be said. I think I may have even started similar posts.

For me, I even have problems with people deciding what is art and what isn't. As an example, a beautiful hand crafted piece of furniture isn't art. At least in some peoples eyes. To me it's no different than other art. This person had a vision and then used their skills (learned craft, etc) to fulfill their vision and make a beautiful piece of furniture. So why don't people consider it art?

I am, however, not a shutter pusher. I tend to think through my ideas and am very methodic about my approach. Is this better or worse? I don't know. I'm having a brainfart and can't remember his name, but there is a well know impressionist that walked around with a camera and randomly pushed the shutter button. He would then develop the pictures and paint something similar. It is still art.

As far as photosig goes, I quite going there when I realized not only does a lot of the work look like porn, it is! Those are porn stars in many of the pictures there. I suppose it's still art, but not my bag of tea.

But like hodgy, I started showing my work at sites that have people with similar interests. Or at least appreciate the work I do and give very good feedback. For the same reason I stopped commenting on peoples work here. In many ways theres nothing wrong with it. Just not my interest and many people here don't want a real critique.

I also take with a grain of salt any image I see on the web. It's too easy to make 400x600 pixel images that look great. A friend asked me about wedding photographers. He was looking at their web sites. I told him to go down and look at actual albums and big enlargements. Boy, was he suprised and thanked me for that advice.

Well, I understand the OP's point but the people that come to these forums include all types of people. Some are problably artists (or aspire to be) and others just like playing with toys (cameras),,,,others fit somewhere in the middle.

I appreciate the "call to arms" in the OP's message but I don't the the majority of visitors on this forum fit his category of "artist".

Just telling it like I see it.

Thanks, all, for keeping this thread civil. We obviously all have our viewpoints, many of them counter to Irakly's opening thread, and the responses were to the point without being threatening. :-)

Hello All,

Although I don't agree w/ everything that was said in the first post, I can understand some of the points that are being made. I look at this forum often (although I don't post often), and sometimes I do feel that people can get "hung up" on the technology. Many of the posts that I see make me believe that many people either don't care, or don't focus enough attention on the creative/artistic aspects of photography. Granted, I know that not everyone here wants to be a professional/artist, but it would be nice if there were more posts directed at the creative and artistic side of photography.

I certainly am no professional, but I really do enjoy photography as a hobby. I do believe that photography is well suited to me because after being stuck in an office all week long, I can take pics to exercise my creative side + my technical side simultaneously. As I said before, I think that many people (not necessarily only in this forum) focus on the technology and equipment much more than the actual process and end result of the photographs being taken. I think that many photography enthusiasts spend too much time on things like "How many megapixels does that camera have?", "What's the dpi on that scanner?", etc., and not enough time asking themselves "How can I improve this composition/lighting/etc.", "Would this shot be better in color or in B&W", "what mood am I trying to capture w/ this photo"?

Because of this, I have embarked on a 1 man "mini-revolt" against digital. Instead of buying a 10D, or digital rebel to complement my Canon Elan 7E, I have recently purchased an almost 50 year old Rolleiflex TLR. It quickly became my favorite camera, and it's almost twice as old as I am. Why do I love it? It doesn't have any megapixels, it doesn't even use batteries -it's all manual. Speaking about art, I do believe that this camera itself is a work of art. Before taking a picture, I have to figure out everything - it's completely manual. This camera really forces me to learn the "craft" of photography. When I feel my skills have advanced to my satisfaction, I will reward myself w/ a digital camera, knowing that I have the proper skills to use it.

Anyway, I've rambled on enough. I'm not saying that I agree w/ the first post, but it reminded me of a post that I almost put here about a month ago, and ultimately decided against it.


David

Way to stir things up, Irakly! This site can use a little more controversy. Sometimes we get too polite. But that's because most people on this site have so much respect for each other. This thread just proves that. Even when you try to get in our face, people come back at you with reasonable and well-thought out answers.

That said, I am very sympathetic to your message. I too believe that most photography I see isn't art. To me, ART is about meaning. There's illustration and art. There are both types of work in other "artistic" disciplines, why should photography be any different? A pretty, technically perfect image of a flower, or even a naked woman, isn't necessarily art. It becomes ART when it starts to have deeper, layered meanings - when it starts to speak about the human condition and help us to better define and understand our place in the universe. ART is abour spirituality and the deeper parts of the psyche. It's more than just capturing a scene. It's capturing that scene and sing it to suggest more about who we are, where we come from, where we're going, and our relationship to the world around us.

I hope I'm not being judgemental here. That's not my intention. People are very quick to get defensive whenever anyone starts to challenge whether their work is "real" art. But I'm not saying there's anything wrong with snapshot, family, flower, or other representational photography. I understand that people take pictures for many reasons. Not everyone is interested in taking pictures that encompass something larger. But to claim that all photography is art is to undermine and devalue the word, "art." ART is different. That's we argue about it and that's why it's important. It's hard to define - especially the line where a piece goes from being representational to art. But once again, a technically perfect photo does not necessarily qualify as art. That doesn't mean it's bad or the photographer isn't doing valuable work, though. It just means the content is different.

I'm glad Irakly started this thread. I think it's a good one and I think we can take advantage of it. A bunch of people said that he should go somewhere else because this site just isn't an artistic site. I take issue with that. I have a fine art background. I'm not really doing artistic photography these days, but I want art on this site. One of my unspoken goals for PhotographyREVIEW.com is to challenge photographers and get them to expect more of themselves and each other when it comes to photography. If you read the critiques I post on the Photo Critique forum you'll know that I occassionally start talking about meaning, symbolism, and understanding your own motives. These things are important for "real" art. And while talent is a real issue, I believe we can all improve our work ad make it more artistic. We can't all be great artists. But we call all be better artists. ut we have to have an open dialogue about art and we have to speak the right language and understand what art actually is.

I propose that we create a new forum specifically for art photography. That way, if you're interested you can share and participate. And if you're not, you can ignore it. But I believe this site can become more artistic and we'll all benefit. It will raise the level of the site and encourage and inspire us all to expect more from our photography. I know I miss mixing with photographers who are concerned with a deeper kind of work.

Irakly, would you be willing to moderate a new forum?

I don't know about everyone else who visits this forum, but I love the mixture of "art" and "snapshots" that I get to look at. If I had nothing but masterpieces to look at, I would get bored. I love being able to compare images that are great with images that aren't so great. Looking at photos that aren't spectacular really makes me appreciate the images that are, even more. And furtermore, if it wasn't for the not so great photos that are posted by people like myself, nobody would ever realize how great your photos are... so you're welcome. :)

Michael

Irakly, would you be willing to moderate a new forum?
Heh, heh, heh. PJ, I never expected you to use this typical business world tactic! (When someone complains, assign the task of resolving the situation to them.) Excellent!! Now we'll see if Irakly is willing to put his money where his mouth is, or if he prefers to simply whine.

Spike

John -

Thanks for putting things into perspective.

I'd like to respond to one statement:

"I propose that we create a new forum specifically for art photography. That way, if you're interested you can share and participate. And if you're not, you can ignore it. But I believe this site can become more artistic and we'll all benefit. It will raise the level of the site and encourage and inspire us all to expect more from our photography. I know I miss mixing with photographers who are concerned with a deeper kind of work."

I think this is a great idea. However, as has been stated more than once in this thread - Art is subjective. What is art to one person isn't to another...... and sometimes there is a fine line between "art and crap" to quote Irakly ;)

In the new forum what would the guidelines for posting be? To quote my own post above - Probably none of my photographs would be considered works of Art. However, I have photographs that still thrill me when I view them because I captured the vision at the time and they hold (personal) meaning and expression.

Liz

I'm all for the new forum.

Actually I think this is a good idea and it just may work. Business tactic or whatever, it's worth a "shot" (excuse the pun) IMO. I think it will bring out potential that some photographers don't even know they have! Anyway, I'm curious to see what transpires. :cool:

Liz

Heh, heh, heh. PJ, I never expected you to use this typical business world tactic! (When someone complains, assign the task of resolving the situation to them.) Excellent!! Now we'll see if Irakly is willing to put his money where his mouth is, or if he prefers to simply whine.

Spike

I doubt Irakly is a whiner :P His work is amazing.

I'm all for the new forum even if it's just for me to view and not post!

IMO, his post was whiney. Whining has nothing to do with the quality of his photography. I'm all for him moderating a new forum. I can just see it now - all bloody boring photos will be deleted on sight!

;)

Spike

I doubt Irakly is a whiner :P His work is amazing.

I'm all for the new forum even if it's just for me to view and not post!

"I can just see it now - all bloody boring photos will be deleted on sight!"


lol, Nahhhhhhh.

I think we do need to give something new a chance.
Initially Irakly's post was kind of a shocker to me, but after reading it over a few times, and talking it over with a few people, I think we would benefit from peaking more interest in diversity. This may be just what PR needs.

The way I look at it, if you're interested in a new forum, you go to it. If you are not, you don't. Simple as that. :D

I've been a moderator of a photoshop board for years and I've visited many other related boards. Every now and then people would ask how to do the most common things like how to remove a background, which tools to use, how to correct a color cast, etc. Several times I've noticed that some members got annoyed (you heard them thinking; "Oh no, not another amateur!") or accuse others of being lazy or advice them to make use of the help or a search engine. Even on a Photoshop board you can't create some elite board in which all these annoyances are avoided, because these forums are impossible to moderate without stepping on people's toes.

That's why we have paid memberships like they have at NAPP (National Association of Photoshop Professionals). A user who just wants to create a banner for his crappy home site is not going to spend $99 for their membership and this is probably the only way to solve the annoyances that some of the more experienced users feel they have to deal with.

Hodgy somehow confirmed this in his post:
If you find that the images here are not giving you a "wow" factor, then visit another forum. I am a member at a few pay forums that are 100% professional photographers and the images that I see there are just awe inspiring."

I'm also a bit confused. Here we have a member who's complaining about the crap he's seeing and we assumes that once we create a new forum that he will see more great photographs. Be honest, who believes that this is going to happen?

A new forum will invite people to talk more about the creative part of photography than they do now? I have my doubts.

Now I have a question; how are we going to moderate this forum?
What are the moderating criteria that we're going to use, because otherwise you can bet on it that it will just turn into a 'Critique Forum II'.

Let's say that this new forum is going to be a success and that most experienced photographers prefer this forum over the current critique forum and show up less in the old critique forum? Is that going to help those who need help the most, read "beginners"?

I agree, it's always a good idea to try new approaches, but I think that there are other things we should focus on that are a lot more useful and trust me, I already have one idea (one moderator already knows), but I still need some time to work out the small details.

And to go back to that photoshop forum where members complained about beginners asking the same questions over and over; I didn't whine like some of the others, but I wrote some 20 sticky threads that answered these most common question. That's how you should approach things like this, but not by closing your eyes and thinking that a new forum will solve everything.

If I don't like the photographs of some people, then I try to tell them how they can improve, but geeeeez, I'm not going to ask for a photography art gallery or forum to fulfil my personal needs.
If I want to post about art in photography, then I talk about it. I really don't need a special forum for that. Neither did KellyBean and look how many reactions she got in her thread.

Elysian, a lot of us have benefitted from the "how to" posts that you and many others have posted, myself included. My point is, why not have something new in addition to what we already have. People who have been helpful to beginners and intermediates enjoy, and I dare say feel a sense of accomplishment in "teaching", as they rightly should. I don't think a single new forum will take away from that. I truly believe these people will continue to be our guides.

I honestly don't think the possibility of adding a new forum to the existing ones will cause a problem.
Should there be comment to these photographs? I don't know. Should it be just a showcase? maybe.

I guess what I am trying to say is there is room for diversity. It shouldn't affect or bother the people who are not interested, and it should give the people who are interested something they have been looking for in PR forums. I am sure John will agree, there are no intentions of taking away what PR already has.

This is solely my opinion, so guys and gals, please continue to post your thoughts.

I think Elysian brought up some excellent points. I agree with some of his concerns including the following quote from his post:

"Now I have a question; how are we going to moderate this forum?
What are the moderating criteria that we're going to use, because otherwise you can bet on it that it will just turn into a 'Critique Forum II'."

Again (as stated in my post above), if Art is subjective, how does the "artist" (photographer) determine if he has a snapshot or a work of art if he has fallen in love with his image, but others (including the moderator) view it as "crap?"

In no way am I saying it won't work - I already agreed it's a great idea. However, I think it needs to be "critiqued."

Where are you Irakly? We need your input too!

Liz

What about restoring the "Vision" gallery?

Rick

Wow... Thanks John, that's the way to do it. I think that the Art Forum is a viable idea, especially if it is somehow tied to a gallery that is something like the Vision gallery that perished some time ago. The rules can be established that would really make it easy for people to understand what to post there and what not to.
What I want everybody to understand that this is not a talk about stupid newbees and wise advanced shooters, but about ability and willingness to challenge yourself with something more than taking a photo with a certain lens and certain exposure value on a certain type of film. I do not want to offend anybody here, on a contrary, I believe that virtually everybody is capable of creative self-expression. Do you remember when you were kids how mucj time you spent drawing, assembling wierdest things with Lego sets, etc.? All it means that you still have it inside of you, just let it out!
What was a real surprise for me in all the posts in this discussion (I read them all, believe me) is that some people are saying with a scary ease that they do not want to be creative. I do not want to make anyone do stuff that they really do not want to, but I want you to think about your being actually able to create something with your very own mind, eyes, hands and a camera, and not just "something", but a piece that will stir emotions, bring memories, spawn an associative chain in a viewer. Another words, create something that will make a viewer live through your experience, feel what you felt. Believe me, when you take a picture that someone sees and remembers in a year from the moment of seeing it, it feels great. Try it, and you will understand :)
Irakly

Way to stir things up, Irakly! This site can use a little more controversy. Sometimes we get too polite. But that's because most people on this site have so much respect for each other. This thread just proves that. Even when you try to get in our face, people come back at you with reasonable and well-thought out answers.

That said, I am very sympathetic to your message. I too believe that most photography I see isn't art. To me, ART is about meaning. There's illustration and art. There are both types of work in other "artistic" disciplines, why should photography be any different? A pretty, technically perfect image of a flower, or even a naked woman, isn't necessarily art. It becomes ART when it starts to have deeper, layered meanings - when it starts to speak about the human condition and help us to better define and understand our place in the universe. ART is abour spirituality and the deeper parts of the psyche. It's more than just capturing a scene. It's capturing that scene and sing it to suggest more about who we are, where we come from, where we're going, and our relationship to the world around us.

I hope I'm not being judgemental here. That's not my intention. People are very quick to get defensive whenever anyone starts to challenge whether their work is "real" art. But I'm not saying there's anything wrong with snapshot, family, flower, or other representational photography. I understand that people take pictures for many reasons. Not everyone is interested in taking pictures that encompass something larger. But to claim that all photography is art is to undermine and devalue the word, "art." ART is different. That's we argue about it and that's why it's important. It's hard to define - especially the line where a piece goes from being representational to art. But once again, a technically perfect photo does not necessarily qualify as art. That doesn't mean it's bad or the photographer isn't doing valuable work, though. It just means the content is different.

I'm glad Irakly started this thread. I think it's a good one and I think we can take advantage of it. A bunch of people said that he should go somewhere else because this site just isn't an artistic site. I take issue with that. I have a fine art background. I'm not really doing artistic photography these days, but I want art on this site. One of my unspoken goals for PhotographyREVIEW.com is to challenge photographers and get them to expect more of themselves and each other when it comes to photography. If you read the critiques I post on the Photo Critique forum you'll know that I occassionally start talking about meaning, symbolism, and understanding your own motives. These things are important for "real" art. And while talent is a real issue, I believe we can all improve our work ad make it more artistic. We can't all be great artists. But we call all be better artists. ut we have to have an open dialogue about art and we have to speak the right language and understand what art actually is.

I propose that we create a new forum specifically for art photography. That way, if you're interested you can share and participate. And if you're not, you can ignore it. But I believe this site can become more artistic and we'll all benefit. It will raise the level of the site and encourage and inspire us all to expect more from our photography. I know I miss mixing with photographers who are concerned with a deeper kind of work.

Irakly, would you be willing to moderate a new forum?

Again (as stated in my post above), if Art is subjective, how does the "artist" (photographer) determine if he has a snapshot or a work of art if he has fallen in love with his image, but others (including the moderator) view it as "crap?"

In no way am I saying it won't work - I already agreed it's a great idea. However, I think it needs to be "critiqued."

Where are you Irakly? We need your input too!

Liz

Hi Liz, I too have this concern. Was Rembrandt not an artist because his paintings were so real? Is Van Gogh AN artist because they're not?

Some people on this site think photographic "art" has to be B&W. Others think it needs to be diffent or wierd (of course, in their terms of whatever that means!) While others like a heavy hand in PS. And on, and on. Remember, pnd1 described "arty" as a term to use when you like something but can't describe why in classical terms. Does that mean everything has to be abstract or not depict reality?

I believe a persons creativity and vision produces art. Wherever that brings them. IMO, mastering the easel and brush, or becoming an excelent drafstmen, is no different than furniture making, or architecture. All of these require a vision and a mastering of the medium to make an end product.

Then again, sometimes serendipity produces great art. However, even in these cases it's usually helps if the person has mastered his craft. In other words, knowing what to do when the situation arises, or how to make it arise. Consider people who think art with photography is playing with shutters speeds, camera movement, and flash sync.

In other words, there's almost no good answer. I do (I think) understand what PJ is trying to say. I too often see praise of an image of a drop dead gorgeous paid model posing nude in front of a window with diffused light. While this often does produce wondeful results - diffused light from a window I mean - more often than not the praise is about the model. As PJ told me while we were discussing this once, "great model, now show me some good photography." But, this brings us back to the masters like rembrandt. So I suppose it is art too!

Wow, I went on for a while! Very tough question.

Mike

Wow, what a king size can of worms. I'm not quite as well versed as others, nor do I see myself as an artist. I understand and can teach technique in both still and moving pictures. I can appreciate the way texture can bring you into a shot and the how lighting can add dimension to an otherwise flat world that we reproduce. I may not get expressionism or cubism but I can appreciate the heart, soul, hard work and vision of the artist. I shoot to freeze that moment in time, to savor the memory and keep it near and dear to my heart. I teach the technique that I've learned to my young souls, hoping to inspire or maybe awaken the artist inside them. I'm a self professed visual mechanic, good at some things, better at others. But most importantly, I've learned that, and I'm paraphrasing a stolen quote here, wisdon isn't how old you are, or how much you know. Wisdom is how much you are willing to learn from the people and the world around you. I plan to keep showing up and learning. How about the rest of you?

I understand the frustration you are feeling at times. Sometimes out of great angst, comes great art.

MJS

I do not think that this is a good idea to try to define art as something "real" or "not real". Things that make a photograph {a painting, a sculpture, a poem for that matter) artistic have nothing to do with how real the reality is depicted in that piece. Work of art is something that has a meaning, and it is clear that the artist was able to bring this meaning to the viewer and make the viewer FEEL. It is kind of a primitive definition of art, but it's all I've got after a two-mile run :)



Hi Liz, I too have this concern. Was Rembrandt not an artist because his paintings were so real? Is Van Gogh AN artist because they're not?

Some people on this site think photographic "art" has to be B&W. Others think it needs to be diffent or wierd (of course, in their terms of whatever that means!) While others like a heavy hand in PS. And on, and on. Remember, pnd1 described "arty" as a term to use when you like something but can't describe why in classical terms. Does that mean everything has to be abstract or not depict reality?

I believe a persons creativity and vision produces art. Wherever that brings them. IMO, mastering the easel and brush, or becoming an excelent drafstmen, is no different than furniture making, or architecture. All of these require a vision and a mastering of the medium to make an end product.

Then again, sometimes serendipity produces great art. However, even in these cases it's usually helps if the person has mastered his craft. In other words, knowing what to do when the situation arises, or how to make it arise. Consider people who think art with photography is playing with shutters speeds, camera movement, and flash sync.

In other words, there's almost no good answer. I do (I think) understand what PJ is trying to say. I too often see praise of an image of a drop dead gorgeous paid model posing nude in front of a window with diffused light. While this often does produce wondeful results - diffused light from a window I mean - more often than not the praise is about the model. As PJ told me while we were discussing this once, "great model, now show me some good photography." But, this brings us back to the masters like rembrandt. So I suppose it is art too!

Wow, I went on for a while! Very tough question.

Mike

My friend, if I may be so bold, I think you just hit the nail on the head. Now if I could only have the wear-with-all to even think about enjoying a 2 mile run.

Mike,

You're made some excellent points. The thought occurred to me that the work of some artists were not recognized as "art" until years after their death. Some of them suffered tremendously during their lifetime just trying to make a living.

Maybe this is a bit off the track, but here goes. I have a book (catalog) "Photographs for the Farm Security Administration 1935-1938" which includes numerous prints of Walker Evans. I love these photographs - I love his work. This was his job. They are not all technically perfect. Is he an artist? He's captured my heart along with the hearts of many others with his incredible images.

At any rate, it will be interesting as well as a challenge. I think there is a place for this forum on PR. I think we have to be sensitive to the newbies and others who enjoy just doing snapshots and seeing the results as their works of art. We've all been there. ;)

Liz

"I'm not quite as well versed as others, nor do I see myself as an artist."

You certainly did a great job of expressing what you feel. I loved reading your post. It is both true and inspiring.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I was truly inspired. You're quite well versed. :)

Liz

Liz, once again...
Being a newbee or a professional has nothing to do with artistic ability. I have been teaching creativity in photography for quite some time and can tell you that there are some people who take a camera in their hands for the first time and immediately start producing stuff so amazing that technical imperfections just do not matter. There are few of those, unfortunately. Others have to develop their artistic ability, but one can do it only after he or she realized that there is something to be developed.
Sometimes, however, a person with a great artistic ability does not regard it as such. The best example is Guy Bourdin who repeatedly refused to exhibit his photos, or publish a book. He reasoned that he was just doing fashion photography, therefore he was merely a craftsman with no artistic vision. Fortunately, his son did not share this opinion and published a stunning book, which is an intensly humbling experience to look at for anybody who thinks that he can shoot fashion, or who regards himself as a photo artist.



Mike,

You're made some excellent points. The thought occurred to me that the work of some artists were not recognized as "art" until years after their death. Some of them suffered tremendously during their lifetime just trying to make a living.

Maybe this is a bit off the track, but here goes. I have a book (catalog) "Photographs for the Farm Security Administration 1935-1938" which includes numerous prints of Walker Evans. I love these photographs - I love his work. This was his job. They are not all technically perfect. Is he an artist? He's captured my heart along with the hearts of many others with his incredible images.

At any rate, it will be interesting as well as a challenge. I think there is a place for this forum on PR. I think we have to be sensitive to the newbies and others who enjoy just doing snapshots and seeing the results as their works of art. We've all been there. ;)

Liz

Ok, back to that idea about a separate art forum.

I like that idea, but it scares me that it would be critiqued. In my mind, I post for a critique when I think I could do better. Right away that goes against the idea of posting your "best". I'm not going to post something that I think is wonderful knowing that everyone else will be looking at it to pick out the flaws, or tell me that they think the bird should have been on the OTHER side of the volcano and the shot would have been improved if a meteor had been falling through the clouds as I shot. :D OK I'm exaggerating...I haven't gotten that kind of critique here, but I have gotten that kind of critique from other professionals.

On the other hand, people should say <U>something</U> about the posts. We already have the Gallery that nobody comments on. :(

But I think if you open up a forum that asks for "the Best" "Art", you have to be ultra sensitive about not hurting the fragile feelings of anyone opening up their soul to display what they think is their best art. It should be expected that people give some thought to what image they're posting, but that everyone else should respect that person's vision, whether they agree with its merit or not. It might turn into a total BS forum: "oooh, I like it" ... "wonderful image" ... "oh, great color" ... etc., but maybe that's OK. More artists might post if they know their egos will be stroked. We all seek Validation.

After all, over yonder in Critique, accepted comments include those about technique, equipment and general composition. Comments about the actual subject matter often don't go over well. When someone questions your vision, your viewpoint, your intention, it hurts. And I would suspect that an Art forum would be all about vision, and therefore extremely personal.

These are my thoughts as seen through a sleepy brain after staying up all night watching Ivan make landfall on CNN. I hope I haven't been too blunt.

Thanks for replying Irakly,

Just to clarify that my reference to newbies was meant as part of the bigger "picture."

I think we have to be sensitive to the newbies and others who enjoy just doing snapshots and seeing the results as their works of art. We've all been there.

My concern isn't for the newbies per se - it is for anyone who sees their snapshots as a work of art. Point being - we need to take into consideration that in their view, their work is Art. As you mentioned on an earlier post, it is important to be clear about what is considered "appropriate" to post.

Your post did help to clarify some things for me. I think I have a better understanding of your "vision" and goals. I think some "reactions" are due to the "surprise/shock" of how this all evolved. Other reactions might be due to some lack of clarification of vision, etc.

Actually, the more I read, the more I understand, and the more I understand, the better I like the idea. Hope that's clear. :rolleyes:

Liz



Liz, once again...
Being a newbee or a professional has nothing to do with artistic ability. I have been teaching creativity in photography for quite some time and can tell you that there are some people who take a camera in their hands for the first time and immediately start producing stuff so amazing that technical imperfections just do not matter. There are few of those, unfortunately. Others have to develop their artistic ability, but one can do it only after he or she realized that there is something to be developed.
Sometimes, however, a person with a great artistic ability does not regard it as such. The best example is Guy Bourdin who repeatedly refused to exhibit his photos, or publish a book. He reasoned that he was just doing fashion photography, therefore he was merely a craftsman with no artistic vision. Fortunately, his son did not share this opinion and published a stunning book, which is an intensly humbling experience to look at for anybody who thinks that he can shoot fashion, or who regards himself as a photo artist.

I do not want to make anyone do stuff that they really do not want to, but I want you to think about your being actually able to create something with your very own mind, eyes, hands and a camera, and not just "something", but a piece that will stir emotions, bring memories, spawn an associative chain in a viewer. Another words, create something that will make a viewer live through your experience, feel what you felt.
And now I ask you Irakly; when is an abstract photograph considered art?

But back to art in general; where people live, how old they are, what they know, their history, their artistic background, their social status, etc, these are all things that influence how we perceive certain photographs as art (whether we are the ones making it or viewing it). This board is also a reflection of all those different people, so take that into consideration.

The truth of the matter is that there is no broad definition of art. What might be considered art by you and even millions of other people doesn't automatically label it "art".

I do agree with you that people should try to take more than just a carbon copy of what they see, but not me, not you or anyone else can define what art really is and so we're back at square one; how are we going to moderate a forum like this? Sounds more than a fair question or not?

For what it's worth, I see the new forum as a way for us to challenge each other and discuss vision, with the act of posting images ala critique as secondary.

IMO, a new forum devoted to photography as art will be a virtual minefield of issues that may cause as many problems as it solves.

If the intent is indeed to focus on better quality work with more dynamic meaning (as Irakly implies), then by nature the forum MUST be exclusive, IOW there must be standards, guidelines for posting, maybe even juries, otherwise it will no different than Viewfinder, Critique, and the Gallery and will be made up primarily of images people only THINK are artistic, in effect taking AWAY from those forums.

With that in mind, I can tell you that it is next to impossible to make a single forum on a site exclusive without hurting someone's feelings or causing resentment from those that don't "make the grade".

If not handled properly, an Art Forum will be viewed as elitist...

As Hodgy and Elysian point out, the best way to deal with this problem is to make an entire site exclusive, either by making it a pay site, or open only to pros, or having the posted work judged for the ENTIRE site. This way the site markets itself to those truely interested and willing to play by their rules.

We also have the problem that Kelly addresses, one I think most advanced shooters and pros would agree with: we are never going to post our best work here. I'm sorry but I believe it's true. Anyone past a certain skill level or point in their career will concentrate almost exclusively on showing their work in the REAL world or on personal web sites that they've invested much time and money in, NOT on these forums or galleries.

So, what we will most likely have if we create an art IMAGE forum are (again) newbies and "inbetweeners" that THINK they are artistic but not really sure and are trying to get better at it, and that will be no different than what we have now...

IMO, a new Art Photography Forum will only succeed if the emphasis is NOT on the posted images, but rather the PHILOSOPHY of photography as art, the VISION of photography as art, the TOOLS and TECHNIQUES of photography as art, the WORKFLOW of photography as art, and the BUSINESS of photography as art.

What I mean is the discussions of this forum will need to be MORE ABSTRACT and celebrate the WORLD of art, the PASSION of art and how we can all tap into our creativity and be a part of it if we really want to...

If we set it up that way, it may actually work...

Once again Steve says what I'm thinking... :rolleyes:

I do not think that this is a good idea to try to define art as something "real" or "not real". Things that make a photograph {a painting, a sculpture, a poem for that matter) artistic have nothing to do with how real the reality is depicted in that piece. Work of art is something that has a meaning, and it is clear that the artist was able to bring this meaning to the viewer and make the viewer FEEL. It is kind of a primitive definition of art, but it's all I've got after a two-mile run :)


Hi Irakly,

I do not try and define art as something real or not real. My point is basically my taste in art and yours may be way off from each other on some things and the same on others. But, neither of us is wrong!

It still comes down to the same thing. What you view as having meaning and bringing it to the viewer might not do the same for me. I enjoy well composed AND technically done landscapes and it does have meaning to me. I do consider it art. Whereas, I look at other things and think to myself that is "arty." Mostly because I don't know how else to explain it. But it does absulutely nothing for me!

My question is if we have an "art" forum would this landscape belong? Recently, someone here asked for posts of "arty" nudes, which, by her terms, had to be B&W and abstract. There was nice stuff posted. But, IMO, most of it _I_would_ consider illustrations because of such a heavy handed post processing PS approach.

Now, I'm back to Elysian's comments. What gets to be posted there as opposed to the photo critique forum (or any other forum)? Can a landscape be posted there? What kind of landsacpe? Surely not a post card photo (hah)? What about a senior studio shot? Or even a "catch?" One of Sante's most well known shots was taken after the session as the model was driving away.

You also brought up craft or art. Of which, I think is an imaginary line. A well crafted piece of funiture, or a neat architerctural work, has as much meaning and brings as much feeling to me as a good painting or photo. I too tend to view myself as a craftperson. Does that make me not arty? When I see something that has a heavy handed post processing approach and I see the poor capture technique (camera, lighting, etc), it begins to lose meaning for me as a "photography." Yet, I sometimes still enjoy it as art.

To end this, what will difine this forum over the others? Who's opinion will that be? I get the impression you have an idea of what you think art is. Which may not hold true for others.

What I mean is the discussions of this forum will need to be MORE ABSTRACT and celebrate the WORLD of art, the PASSION of art and how we can all tap into our creativity and be a part of it if we really want to...

Steve,

I think you made some excellent points which taps into the essence of the problems that could evolve. 2 comments:

1) How will we ever know if Irakly's ideas and PJ's suggestion of a separate forum will work unless we try it?

2) I wonder if we really need an actual "forum" for this vs. one of those long sticky threads with options to continue. I could be totally off base and wrong. But, I just wonder if there is enough interest to make this a forever-forum. We've had similar discussion many times. Maybe something like this should begin with a thread.

3) I think your idea of these types of discussions is excellent. However, it's totally different from what Irakly was talking about. Maybe we have two good ideas here. :cool: Or maybe both could be incorporated into one forum

Just typing as I think.....which could be dangerous. ;)

Liz

This is exactly the point. To my mind, anybody can post anything that he or she considers art, and it is up to audience to discuss it and to decide whether it is art or not. That's how people learn. I anticipate that some discussions can get quite heated, but personally I do not find that it is bad :)
Again, another topic for discussion is whether photoshop makes or kills photography, does it help us create art, etc...

Irakly

Hi Irakly,

I do not try and define art as something real or not real. My point is basically my taste in art and yours may be way off from each other on some things and the same on others. But, neither of us is wrong!

It still comes down to the same thing. What you view as having meaning and bringing it to the viewer might not do the same for me. I enjoy well composed AND technically done landscapes and it does have meaning to me. I do consider it art. Whereas, I look at other things and think to myself that is "arty." Mostly because I don't know how else to explain it. But it does absulutely nothing for me!

My question is if we have an "art" forum would this landscape belong? Recently, someone here asked for posts of "arty" nudes, which, by her terms, had to be B&W and abstract. There was nice stuff posted. But, IMO, most of it _I_would_ consider illustrations because of such a heavy handed post processing PS approach.

Now, I'm back to Elysian's comments. What gets to be posted there as opposed to the photo critique forum (or any other forum)? Can a landscape be posted there? What kind of landsacpe? Surely not a post card photo (hah)? What about a senior studio shot? Or even a "catch?" One of Sante's most well known shots was taken after the session as the model was driving away.

You also brought up craft or art. Of which, I think is an imaginary line. A well crafted piece of funiture, or a neat architerctural work, has as much meaning and brings as much feeling to me as a good painting or photo. I too tend to view myself as a craftperson. Does that make me not arty? When I see something that has a heavy handed post processing approach and I see the poor capture technique (camera, lighting, etc), it begins to lose meaning for me as a "photography." Yet, I sometimes still enjoy it as art.

To end this, what will difine this forum over the others? Who's opinion will that be? I get the impression you have an idea of what you think art is. Which may not hold true for others.

Steve, you are so smart that sometimes it almost frightens me :)
You've made several exellent points here. Now poor PJ has so much to think about...

I would prefer to leave the debate about what is art and what isn't for the art forum, because it can (andbelieve me, it will) detract us from the point of this discussion.

Most certainly, the way people see and perceive the world is influenced by the surrounding, and it is wonderful. Sometimes this influence is so strong that merely by looking at a fine art nude photo I can fairly precisely determine which city in Poland or Czech Rebublic it came from. I came from society that was closed for the outside world for almost seventy years, and believe me, I now how bad is not to be able to share your work with people of different cultural backgrounds and to see what they do. Having a forum that would enable diverse population of photographers share their artistic vision will be a great thing.

I am not sure yet how this type of forum has to be moderated. I am not even sure that it needs to be moderated at all except of course censoring obsenity and porn. I've been teaching creative side of photography for two years, and have seen discussions that my students went through. It seems to me that on this level things tend to resolve themselves.

And now I ask you Irakly; when is an abstract photograph considered art?

But back to art in general; where people live, how old they are, what they know, their history, their artistic background, their social status, etc, these are all things that influence how we perceive certain photographs as art (whether we are the ones making it or viewing it). This board is also a reflection of all those different people, so take that into consideration.

The truth of the matter is that there is no broad definition of art. What might be considered art by you and even millions of other people doesn't automatically label it "art".

I do agree with you that people should try to take more than just a carbon copy of what they see, but not me, not you or anyone else can define what art really is and so we're back at square one; how are we going to moderate a forum like this? Sounds more than a fair question or not?

IMO, a new Art Photography Forum will only succeed if the emphasis is NOT on the posted images, but rather the PHILOSOPHY of photography as art, the VISION of photography as art, the TOOLS and TECHNIQUES of photography as art, the WORKFLOW of photography as art, and the BUSINESS of photography as art.

What I mean is the discussions of this forum will need to be MORE ABSTRACT and celebrate the WORLD of art, the PASSION of art and how we can all tap into our creativity and be a part of it if we really want to...
Workflow, business, tools and techniques of photography as art? Mmm... I sense that you're thinking more of a forum for philosophers than a photograpy art discussion forum...

First of all, I'm in favor of having the forum, whatever it turns out to be...

What I meant in my first post was if it becomes simply a venue to post pics that we give the thumbs up or down and argue why they are or aren't "artisitc", I'll probably lose interest in pretty fast.

Joe, as you already mentioned, simply creating a new forum for this purpose alone will not in any way guarantee a quantum leap in the quality of images over what we already have...

To me, a vibrant forum dealing with the artistic aspects of photography should be similar in scope to the other specialty forums, IOW a meeting place for our members that either want to explore their creative and artisitc potential through their work, or actually pursue part time or full time careers as photo artists.

The things I mention that aren't image related (at least in the sense of posting images) are often just as important in exploring one's art. This means topics like how to nurture ideas, how to go about expressing ideas through imagery, how to organize, present, show, and market your artwork.

And yes, how to create certain types of images through discussions of equipment and technique.

Just throwing out ideas...

Workflow, business, tools and techniques of photography as art? Mmm... I sense that you're thinking more of a forum for philosophers than a photograpy art discussion forum...

Steve, you are absolutely right. This forum has to become a hang-out place for photo artists where all topics related to creative side of photography will be discussed.
Irakly


The things I mention that aren't image related (at least in the sense of posting images) are often just as important in exploring one's art. This means topics like how to nurture ideas, how to go about expressing ideas through imagery, how to organize, present, show, and market your artwork.

And yes, how to create certain types of images through discussions of equipment and technique.

Just throwing out ideas...[/QUOTE]

Steve, you are absolutely right. This forum has to become a hang-out place for photo artists where all topics related to creative side of photography will be discussed.
Iarakly, several times you wrote "I agree John", "I agree Steve", "you're so smart Steve", but I still have no clue what the connection is between an art photography forum and your comment which was: "I wrote this because I am just so blarsted bored with pictures that I see here!!!".
I really think it's time for you to speak up for yourself and tell us in the most honest way what you really meant with your initial post, instead of turning this into a discussion about a forum.
Please explain to me (because I really don't get it) how your frustrations about all these boring shots will end once you have 'your' forum. I quote for the 2nd time what you wrote: "I wrote this because I am just so blarsted bored with pictures that I see here!!!".
You don't share your ideas about art in the critique forum that needs it most (strange, because you do organize workshops), but at the same time you're the strongest supporter of this new forum. Sorry to say so, but that tastes like snobbish elitism to me.

Anyhow, I think the forum is a good idea, but allow me to have my doubts, which doesn't mean that I won't put any effort into it to MAKE it work.

Ok, I've spent enough time in this thread and I have no intention to hijack it.

C'ya around

I'm all for an Art forum to creatively challenge us as photographers, irregardless of anyone's skill level, and I suggest Irakly to be the first one to post and be critiqued! :)

Ray

That's exactly what I wanted. I wanted a new forum for photo artists that everybody can read and discover for themselves what art of photography really is. I do not want "my forum", I want to see art here, that's all.
I used to post in the Critique forum a lot, but it was no use. Most people there are not really interested in improving their vision. Not everybody, I have to admit, but most.
Irakly


Please explain to me (because I really don't get it) how your frustrations about all these boring shots will end once you have 'your' forum. I quote for the 2nd time what you wrote: "I wrote this because I am just so blarsted bored with pictures that I see here!!!".
You don't share your ideas about art in the critique forum that needs it most (strange, because you do organize workshops), but at the same time you're the strongest supporter of this new forum. Sorry to say so, but that tastes like snobbish elitism to me.

Anyhow, I think the forum is a good idea, but allow me to have my doubts, which doesn't mean that I won't put any effort into it to MAKE it work.

Ok, I've spent enough time in this thread and I have no intention to hijack it.

C'ya around[/QUOTE]

Gladly :) Meanwhile you can bash whatever I have in the Galery.

I'm all for an Art forum to creatively challenge us as photographers, irregardless of anyone's skill level, and I suggest Irakly to be the first one to post and be critiqued! :)

Ray

WIth photography it is easy, you just press a little button. Countless "artists" who do not put any effort into taking a photo other than pressing that little button do really undermine reputation of photography because they create a steady stream of substandard, mindless and simply boring photos that can tickle fancies only of those who took them.

Have you ever gone to a county fair way outside of a major city and seen the art contest section? You'll never want to see another crappy watercolor of someone's rosegarden again. The banal is everywhere. VF is where we post our crappy rosegarden watercolors :)

We're at all levels here. I only partially agree about the technofiles always trying out new equipment. But if I never heard someone talking about this new camera they tried, I still might be shooting my Minolta X-370 and never tried out a Holga.

I do see your point and your frustration. But I don't know if the goals of this website, which are commercial and to promote review and discourse about *equipment*, jive with that view. Ya know? :) I feel your pain - but I also like coming here and seeing people grow with there photography. It does happen....
Megan

Megan-
I believe we can address both needs without hurting the site. If Irakly and others (like me) are willing to cultivate and nurture a new section, people will use it and it will grow. And ultimately it will enrichen and help the site as a whole.

Megan-
I believe we can address both needs without hurting the site. If Irakly and others (like me) are willing to cultivate and nurture a new section, people will use it and it will grow. And ultimately it will enrichen and help the site as a whole.

have you ever had a photo contest (with no prizes---that way you don't get an influx of crap entires for prizes) that people or administrators select photos on really tight standards? I know critique has it's own "chosen photo" but maybe if you incorporated that photo as an automatic finalist and then added others...more of a "premier" type of gallery...don't know how much trouble...but maybe in a way that people could cast votes. just throwing ideas out....I was really impressed in the VERY old forums at the gallery(was it vision or something likethat) that had the most amazing work....anway my two pennies

..and maybe have a beginner....amateur...and advanced section...that way people could select which category as their skills grow...

A couple of days ago I posted a photo in the Gallery, and it was deleted. Given how uptight some people are, it came at no surprize to me, but got me thinking... If we have the Art Forum and possibly a gallery for it, we should expect to see different forms of artistic expression there, some of which may be hard to swallow for the aforementioned uptight individuals. Therefore, both forum and gallery must have certain rules on who can look at them, and also there must be some technical means to prevent certain events. My biggest concerns are offending some members of the audience (everybody knows that it takes only one offended to ruin a great idea) and offending artists by censoring their work with a blunt instrument of narrow-mindedness of people in chharge (whoever that may be).
The first problem is fairly easily addessed by standard methods like access bariers with disclaimers, age limits, etc.
The second problem requires a very effective policy. First, the forum and the gallery should have several moderators who cannot make unilateral decisions on removing someone's artwork permanently. On the other hand, if someone posts a photo that is clearly offensive and has no artistic value, moderators have to have some means to deal with it immediately. I think it can be done by a temorary suspension for, say, 24 hours. During this time other moderators will see the offending material and make a collective cool-headed decision on how really inappropriate the piece is, and what should be done about it.

You know, I have been reading this, yet staying out of it. However, I simply can't sit back and absorb it any longer.

Irakly -- Your dialogue leaves me to believe that you are a spoiled and petulant human being with misplaced arrogance. While you may come one here and imply that your bogus venom is a "rally cry" for people to put up better work, it's nothing more than an attempt to stroke your own ego.

I have seen your work on this board and on your site. I admire it and believe that you do a nice job. No better than the local photgrapher in my town, but nice nonetheless. I could only hope to understand lighting, angles and posing as well as you and he understands it. However, it does not give you license to come in here and p|ss and moan about how everyone else sucks and you need a board all to yourself so you don't have to mix your stuff in with the little people.

I respect those who have made this a civil thread, particularly after the initial post, but I do not have half as much class as they do. Instead I recommend to those that spend all their time sniffing out other's "crap", those who whine about the boards policies, and those who are offended by amateurish imagery, simply find a site that fits your needs -- which appears to be ego based. Given some of the other sites I have seen, I suspect that you are afraid of being one of the little people elsewhere.

A few months ago I discovered this board and I have gained knowledge and inspiration since. Almost on a daily basis. I have tremendous respect for my peers criticism and suggestions. Whether it be toward one of my images or someone elses. I am here to LEARN. I'm a long, long way from mastering this art. The people here will bring me that much closer.

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175></TD><TD class=alt2><!-- message --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

I used to post in the Critique forum a lot, but it was no use. Most people there are not really interested in improving their vision. Not everybody, I have to admit, but most.
Irakly
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Really? under what name? I was interested in seeing your criticism those in the critique forum but when I checked your profile there is not a single post by you in critique forum. This is a shame, because you probably could help since you teach creative photography. Prove me wrong if you can, but since most of the threads started by you are about your "workshops", I think you just wanted to stir things up so people would feel that they need your classes. I honestly don't know of a single photographer that isn't interested in "improving their vision" ! Try not to use us.
Kit

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<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175></TD><TD class=alt2><!-- message --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

I used to post in the Critique forum a lot, but it was no use. Most people there are not really interested in improving their vision. Not everybody, I have to admit, but most.
Irakly
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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Really? under what name? I was interested in seeing your criticism those in the critique forum but when I checked your profile there is not a single post by you in critique forum. This is a shame, because you probably could help since you teach creative photography. Prove me wrong if you can, but since most of the threads started by you are about your "workshops", I think you just wanted to stir things up so people would feel that they need your classes. I honestly don't know of a single photographer that isn't interested in "improving their vision" ! Try not to use us.
Kit

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Kit,

Irakly has been here longer than me, and I have been around since 2000. This board only show the stats for the NEW forum, he used to be much more active. I can see where you think that he's trying to "push" his workshops, but believe me, after everything he's done here for myself an others in the past, it's MORE than fair to let him push his business as little as he has.

One may question Irakly's methods here lately, but certainly not his motives...

He is the venerable Austin Powers from the old site, and has probably been around here longer than most of us. Between the user name and site format changes, one would never be able to grasp the true scope of his participation simply by looking at his current profile page unless you knew him from before.

As for his workshops, trust me, the powers that be are quite happy that he promotes them on this site and wish him all the success in the world with them...

Kit,

Irakly has been here longer than me, and I have been around since 2000. This board only show the stats for the NEW forum, he used to be much more active. I can see where you think that he's trying to "push" his workshops, but believe me, after everything he's done here for myself an others in the past, it's MORE than fair to let him push his business as little as he has.Seb, I didn't know there was a new forum, and only went by the date on the profile. Thank you for telling me that. Beleive me, I have no problem with people offering their services to those on forums. I know that this is how it is done quite often, and accepted as ok. What I do have a problem with is judging others in a condesending way. Not only is their work judged by him as "crap" but their motives are questioned. Not too brilliant if he is trying to drum up business. If someone was good to you in the past, would you let them abuse you now? Would you go about this in the way he does? no, you wouldn't because you are a kind person not an egomaniac. I don't appreciate it.
Kit

Kit,

I guess it's just a matter of differing viewpoints. I for one welcome someone with his experience and professional background to tell me my work is "crap" and to question my motives. I will never improve if I sit content in my mediocrity. On more than one occasion Irakly has put down my work, and he was right. It just took me a while to realize that.

And overall I have to agree with him, this site is for the most part a sea of mediocrity. Those that rose above it have moved on to other sites where their skill and talent are pushed to even higher levels. I wish this site could have been one where their talents would have been nurtured and they would have stayed.

Is there something wrong with the majority of work here being nothing special? No, absolutely not. As many have said, some never desire to move past that. But for those that do, this site isn't really made for them. And I think that's what he's trying to say.

When it comes to art, there will always be someone telling you it's garbage. They are not always wrong. The best thing to do if you want to improve your art is to listen to both sides with he same gratitude and respect. It's gotten to the point that I ignore most of the good things said to me and only listen to the bad. They are usually much more honest and made with more of a desire to help me improve.

I think for the most part those that are upset by Irakly's statements might be because they are insecure about their own work and feel attacked. I can understand that, but once you get past that and start to listen to what people like him are saying, that's when you start to open up to new levels of understanding yourself, your work, and how all those things interact.

Is he being condescending? I don't think so. I think he's being blunt. But I know damn well how that can backfire.

For all those offended by his posts, I say take a long hard look at yourself, take a deep breath, and rethink where you stand. Put ego and pride aside before you post. What he's saying has been said to me before, and it has been one of the best things to ever happen to me. No matter how good you think you are, no matter how good others tell you you are, you can be better. And frankly, if a majority of people are telling you your stuff is great, they either don't know any better, or they are lying to you.

Irakly's been here since the very beginning. He originally posted under his own name, then as Austin Powers, and since we introduced the current forums, as Irakly again. His participation has waxed and waned, but through it all he's loyal to the site and I don't think he really meant to ridicule anyone. As I said before, I'm sympathetic to his message. There is photography that is different than purely illustrative. And it's that symbolic, meaning-based type of work that this discussion is really about. He and I would both like to see more work like that on the site and that's what the new forum would be for. It would be for discussing meaning in photography and other art, and not so much for discussing technique or equipment.

And I agree that it's time to bring back the Vision Gallery. I haven't put any thought into exactly how to do it. There are a few technical issues. The new gallery is a great platform, though. I just have to figure out how to make the Vision concept work within the new gallery software.

I used a nickname Austin Powers, but on the new forum I registered with my name. There are people here who still remember it, and I met some fine idividuals like Seb, Lauren and Steve personally. Believe me, I am not trying to use you or anybody here, when I need new students I just say so. Also, when you say "use" you seem to imply that all I do is just to get paid. It is a bit unsubstantiated, don't you think?

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175></TD><TD class=alt2><!-- message --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

I used to post in the Critique forum a lot, but it was no use. Most people there are not really interested in improving their vision. Not everybody, I have to admit, but most.
Irakly
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Really? under what name? I was interested in seeing your criticism those in the critique forum but when I checked your profile there is not a single post by you in critique forum. This is a shame, because you probably could help since you teach creative photography. Prove me wrong if you can, but since most of the threads started by you are about your "workshops", I think you just wanted to stir things up so people would feel that they need your classes. I honestly don't know of a single photographer that isn't interested in "improving their vision" ! Try not to use us.
Kit

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John, Seb, Steve, thanks for support. I guess, people who question my level of expertise and my motives are right in that sense that I started all this without getting folks to know me. It is my congenital restlessness that made me burst instead of bringing this art forum/gallery idea in a slow and civilized manner.

Ok everyone, I think this thread is starting to get to the Dark Side of things now and people need to step back a little and think about what is really being said here.

Irakly (formally Austin Powers) yes has been around for many years and has in the past generated a lot of interesting replies, ideas, pushed people up the ladder of experteise etc and is again trying to do that in his own way.

Photo-John said that this forum is going to happen, I like the idea of suspending a post for 24 hours to allow other moderators to view the post and suggest the handling of such a post. Deleating a post without consultation (except in a moderators own forum they are responsible for, which isn't done lightly) is not a good thing for a forum and edges on the side of Nazism.

What most people have missed here, is a good idea to get Artistic imagine onbaord and an avenue to help others that might be struggling to achieve something with their own imagry that they can't resolve. I for one, would welcome a forum where I can ask someone that is a working professional exactly how to achieve something and hopefully endup with an example of how that is achieved to be able to try that myself. Not having a network like some have, I have a trial and error factor to my photography which can be disheartening at times, stiffling my own personal development.

Irakly has made some good points and it may be seen as condesending, elieteism, what ever one wants to call it, it really is irrelevant. It is a good idea, if handled and presented correctly and should develope these forums into a better place to visit and learn and share our common interest, which is Photography.

The amount of people that give of their time here to others without any thought of gain for themselves, really shouldn't be questioned here. Most of us give of our time and thoughts freely to others and do so willingly, I'm sure we all know who they are.

You know, the amount of posts that are listed next to ones Username is really irrelevant, it is the quality of those posts that is never shown, which are the most important.

Please also remember, that there are people that visit these forums from all over the world and more often than not, English might not be the first language of the person posting, and we all need to remember that. Interpretation of what one writes, how it is read, and then reinterpreted, can often not come out the way it was initially thought of in one head.

Maybe this thread needs to be locked now and we all move on a little from it.

I don't think there is, nor was there any intention to use anyone in these forums by anyone, except those that post 1 post and advertise there wears and often spam the forums with the same posting, which really annoys me.

To have the kind of site you invision means one thing. No beginners. This site is open to everyone and that means all different levels of skill and talent. Beleive me, I've had teachers in college who would not accept mediocre or even advanced work. You're right that it does spur you on to bigger and better. I'm not arguing for myself (beleive me, my work is crap and I know it lol) but for those who are trying to get a handle on the whole art thing. They are at the stage where they should be encouraged. Not lied to, but told in an encouraging way what they are doing wrong. You don't talk to people like that. Why defend someones bad behavior that hurts others? It's almost like a mother making excuses for their childs rudeness. I do understand that if someone has meant a lot to you, you overlook their faults. You also understand him better than those of us who never heard of him before his recent post. So, I'll concede to your judgement of his motives.

Irakly: Maybe you are trying to help.. but coming out of nowhere and giving an all out judgement to a group of people about their passion isnt the way to do it. Who set you up as judge and jury? How is your opinion any better than others? I value Sebs opinion and feel that Photo John is objective, so I feel I may have judged you harshly. We'll see.

Why not have a positive learning experience from here? Irakly, or anyone could give an assignments to the whole site, and those who want to can submit their work each week in a thread for criticism. We could then see for ourselves how we measure up to others That would stretch the minds of those participating and also of those critiqueing. It would also force us to practice techniques that we feel uncomfortable doing, like say portraiture, panning , action etc. We could use a number system for grading how each person accomplished the assignment. Whoever wins can give the assignment for the next week. Just a suggestion.

I personally love it here. Thank you for offering it to me and everyone else. Anything that is done for improvement I'm all for.
Kit

Kit, you are mistaken. I really hope that the new forum will be as comfortable for beginnners as for experienced photographers. The key idea here is that there are different types of beginners: those who have artistic vision, and those who need it developed. There is the third type, though: people who do not need an artistic vision, but they by default will not be interested in the Art Forum. They will gradually develop skills that will make their photography more... let's say... predictable in terms of obtainability of desired results, but its artistic value will not improve. I am not saying that they are bad people, all I am saying is that I am not interested in seeing their photographic work, that's all.
I am trying to help, and I will put in the new forum as much energy as I was putting it the old one, and I truly hope that it will help many people discover something that they have never thought of about photography.
Irakly

To have the kind of site you invision means one thing. No beginners. This site is open to everyone and that means all different levels of skill and talent. Beleive me, I've had teachers in college who would not accept mediocre or even advanced work. You're right that it does spur you on to bigger and better. I'm not arguing for myself (beleive me, my work is crap and I know it lol) but for those who are trying to get a handle on the whole art thing. They are at the stage where they should be encouraged. Not lied to, but told in an encouraging way what they are doing wrong. You don't talk to people like that. Why defend someones bad behavior that hurts others? It's almost like a mother making excuses for their childs rudeness. I do understand that if someone has meant a lot to you, you overlook their faults. You also understand him better than those of us who never heard of him before his recent post. So, I'll concede to your judgement of his motives.

Irakly: Maybe you are trying to help.. but coming out of nowhere and giving an all out judgement to a group of people about their passion isnt the way to do it. Who set you up as judge and jury? How is your opinion any better than others? I value Sebs opinion and feel that Photo John is objective, so I feel I may have judged you harshly. We'll see.

Why not have a positive learning experience from here? Irakly, or anyone could give an assignments to the whole site, and those who want to can submit their work each week in a thread for criticism. We could then see for ourselves how we measure up to others That would stretch the minds of those participating and also of those critiqueing. It would also force us to practice techniques that we feel uncomfortable doing, like say portraiture, panning , action etc. We could use a number system for grading how each person accomplished the assignment. Whoever wins can give the assignment for the next week. Just a suggestion.

I personally love it here. Thank you for offering it to me and everyone else. Anything that is done for improvement I'm all for.
Kit

Kit,

Really believe that the site we envision WILL allow for beginners. As Irakly stated above, there are many different types of beginners, we cater to only a few of those types, and the others leave. We would like to make it so different areas of the site encourage different people at different levels.

Look at the studio and lighting forum. It doesn't get much use but it's a great resource, and every now and then it is added to by people from all levels of skill and experience. It didn't take away from anything, neither did the digital forums, or the video forums, they all add to make it easier for people to find exactly what they are looking for. And that is how I envision the new "Art" forum, whatever shape it may take.

Believe me, PJ will never let this site change from the fundamental community that it is, his desire is only to add to it to help those in the community grow without having to search out other places.

Kit-
I understand your concern. But this doesn't need to an either/or situation. PhotographyREVIEW is a big site with lots of people. Just because we add something new doesn't mean that everyone will abandon the old standbys - like the ViewFinder forum. Personally, no matter what we've added to the site, I find I come back to ViewFinder to share most stuff. It's our living room. It's where most of my friends are. But not all my needs are met in the living room. And why should I have to go to a completely different site to get what I need?

I've found that posting serious, art-related stuff on ViewFinder usually doesn't work. People aren't interested, don't understand, or are just focused on other things. I would like a place for artists on the site. It should bring in new blood and inspire people with artistic tendencies. I don't see it as an exclusive club for a few elite. Like the rest of the site, it should welcome everyone. But it should have a different approach, language, and paradigm for discussing photos. It shouldn't compete with the Photo Critique forum, either. Ideally, it will be more about breaking down and discussing meaning and symbolism than lighting, exposure, composition, etc.

Beginners are always welcome. If they have questions about exposure, what camera to buy, or just want to share photos, there are places for them to do that. No one wants to change that. But if someone comes here and wants to talk about art and meaning in photography, it would be nice to have a place for them to do that without anyone telling them their exposure is wrong or they need a different lens. And if beginners want to post on the Art Photography forum, that's great. They're images will just be looked at and discussed in a different way. And if tey're looking for technical help, they'll be directed to the correct forum. It's no big deal.

I promise.

Kit, you are mistaken. I really hope that the new forum will be as comfortable for beginnners as for experienced photographers. The key idea here is that there are different types of beginners: those who have artistic vision, and those who need it developed. There is the third type, though: people who do not need an artistic vision, but they by default will not be interested in the Art Forum. They will gradually develop skills that will make their photography more... let's say... predictable in terms of obtainability of desired results, but its artistic value will not improve. I am not saying that they are bad people, all I am saying is that I am not interested in seeing their photographic work, that's all.
I am trying to help, and I will put in the new forum as much energy as I was putting it the old one, and I truly hope that it will help many people discover something that they have never thought of about photography.
IraklyIrakly, I am very much interested in having an Art Forum. Thank you for trying to help get that established. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you and I'm really upset over this whole thing. I never ever get in fights even in real life unless I'm defending the underdog. I guess I saw you as a bully and felt you were insulting good people. I would like to get to know you better and see what others see in you. Thanks for taking the time to answer when I was irate. It all sounds promising and you do seem sincere. I apologise for jumping to conclusions, and no I don't really think you were trying to use anyone. I was wrong.
Kit

This is probably the most wasted thread I've ever seen on this site. I personally take great offense to all of the statement made by Irakly Shanidze. And I would expect a very sincere and thorough apology from him to all members of this site. I have absolutely no respect for him, and I would hope he is removed from this site permanently. I'm not going to sugar coat this- he's just not the kind of person we need here. I will refrain from name-calling, since I would end up listing every name there is. Normally I would premise a post like this with "I'm sorry but..." But I'm not sorry- Irakly should be sorry. You don't come into our little world here and start trashing on us expect us to not get royally pissed off. And I'm quite impressed with everyone remaining so decent and humane over this one- a real tribute to the quality of character of the members here. People like Irakly are so below us, you have to dig to find them. I for one will not be kind or constructive- Irakly simply needs to go. Period.
There, I'm done...

A lot of people felt insulted by Irakly's original post. But from your response I'm guessing you haven't read through the whole thing. I apologize if I'm wrong. In any case, I don't believe it's as simple and black and white as you seem to be seeing it. I think the initial post might have been worded better. But for me, this is one of the best discussions I've seen here for a long time.

Awesome :D Would you like to step oudside? It is always an immense pleasure for me to read posts where someone speaks for everyone else just to create an illusion of his words having some bearing. Good job, bro. If this thread results in the Art Forum, I wll be extatic, not sorry. I genuinely want to help here, and I will stay to do that. If you have a problem with that, just try some breathing technique, or cold shower and read this thread again before calling it wasted. If it does not help, well... I have heard some people hit their heads against the wall until it helps. I can only hope that you won't need such anradical form of anger management.


This is probably the most wasted thread I've ever seen on this site. I personally take great offense to all of the statement made by Irakly Shanidze. And I would expect a very sincere and thorough apology from him to all members of this site. I have absolutely no respect for him, and I would hope he is removed from this site permanently. I'm not going to sugar coat this- he's just not the kind of person we need here. I will refrain from name-calling, since I would end up listing every name there is. Normally I would premise a post like this with "I'm sorry but..." But I'm not sorry- Irakly should be sorry. You don't come into our little world here and start trashing on us expect us to not get royally pissed off. And I'm quite impressed with everyone remaining so decent and humane over this one- a real tribute to the quality of character of the members here. People like Irakly are so below us, you have to dig to find them. I for one will not be kind or constructive- Irakly simply needs to go. Period.
There, I'm done...

Kit, no hard feelings. I am sure that we will be able to build something outstanding and unusual here with our mutual effort.
Irakly

Irakly, I am very much interested in having an Art Forum. Thank you for trying to help get that established. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you and I'm really upset over this whole thing. I never ever get in fights even in real life unless I'm defending the underdog. I guess I saw you as a bully and felt you were insulting good people. I would like to get to know you better and see what others see in you. Thanks for taking the time to answer when I was irate. It all sounds promising and you do seem sincere. I apologise for jumping to conclusions, and no I don't really think you were trying to use anyone. I was wrong.
Kit

If you're going to start an Art forum and discuss meaning, don't we need to define "art" and "meaning?" Seems to me there are as many definitions of "art" as there are people out there.

Just a jumping-off point
(PJ you were a philo major right? :) )

Rick

Awesome :D Would you like to step oudside? It is always an immense pleasure for me to read posts where someone speaks for everyone else just to create an illusion of his words having some bearing. Good job, bro. If this thread results in the Art Forum, I wll be extatic, not sorry. I genuinely want to help here, and I will stay to do that. If you have a problem with that, just try some breathing technique, or cold shower and read this thread again before calling it wasted. If it does not help, well... I have heard some people hit their heads against the wall until it helps. I can only hope that you won't need such anradical form of anger management.This is in defence of Outdoorman...I'm defending his right to be hurt by your words.


Geez Irakly, can't you give an inch? I have given you the benefit of the doubt, even to the point of apologizing for reading you wrong. Everyone came to your defence and made sure that it was understood what your true meaning was. Everyone but you. Are you a spoiled little brat? The truth is, you were rude in a big way. Can't you be a man and admit it? I know you didn't mean it the way it sounds but you did step on some toes. Please don't abuse someone then cut them down for being upset. Let's all be friends.
Kit

Kit, in that first post I was vervy very careful not to offend anyone personally, and I certainly did not want to. In general, getting offended and strart acting irrational is a much easier tactics than trying to address an issue. I know that negative reinforcement is not a welcome technique in this country school system, but we are not ten-year-olds. Yes, I am a man and no I am not a spoiled brat, honestly. I need some coffee to write something more persuasive, sorry...

This is in defence of Outdoorman...I'm defending his right to be hurt by your words.


Geez Irakly, can't you give an inch? I have given you the benefit of the doubt, even to the point of apologizing for reading you wrong. Everyone came to your defence and made sure that it was understood what your true meaning was. Everyone but you. Are you a spoiled little brat? The truth is, you were rude in a big way. Can't you be a man and admit it? I know you didn't mean it the way it sounds but you did step on some toes. Please don't abuse someone then cut them down for being upset. Let's all be friends.
Kit

I think this question will be a perfect opening for the Art Forum :) Many people have their opinion on this topic. Some of these opinions are educated, some are intuitive, and for both parties it will be a great educational experience to hear the other side.

If you're going to start an Art forum and discuss meaning, don't we need to define "art" and "meaning?" Seems to me there are as many definitions of "art" as there are people out there.

Just a jumping-off point
(PJ you were a philo major right? :) )

Rick

Kit, in that first post I was vervy very careful not to offend anyone personally, and I certainly did not want to. In general, getting offended and strart acting irrational is a much easier tactics than trying to address an issue. I know that negative reinforcement is not a welcome technique in this country school system, but we are not ten-year-olds. Yes, I am a man and no I am not a spoiled brat, honestly. I need some coffee to write something more persuasive, sorry...
Irakly, Irakly,Irakly... Everytime I read another of your responses, I begin to think you will never get it.

Just let me use your answer to Outdoorsman as an example. You begin by using passive aggressive behaviour to leave your opponent bleeding all over the screen.. ie:"It is always an immense pleasure for me to read posts where someone speaks for everyone else just to create an illusion of his words having some bearing".

You then move on to sarcasm to finish him off.. ie "If you have a problem with that, just try some breathing technique, or cold shower and read this thread again before calling it wasted. If it does not help, well... I have heard some people hit their heads against the wall until it helps. I can only hope that you won't need such anradical form of anger management."

What you don't seem able to do is look at the other persons point of view. If quite a few people were offended it should make you think " Hmm, maybe that does sound a bit harsh". Could you possibly work on that? Or, just keep denying that there is any problem and expect everyone to accept you with open arms. In spite it all, I like you. God only knows why, maybe you're a challenge. lol
Kit

...the more excited I am about the idea of having this new forum.

Being immersed in art communities most of my career, it's been my experience that sharing opinions and experiences about the kinds of topics we will most likely talk about will only lead to positive things, and hopefully enlightenment for many of the members here.

I think ignorance is one of the greatest enemies of art and self-expression. People fear (or are at least less tolerant) of ideas and methods they don't understand.

Yes, the art world is full of bs, and the photographic side of it is no exception, but it's only when we are exposed to a great variety of opinions and ideas that we can begin to sift through it all, sort out what we agree with and what we don't, and get a clearer view of the direction we need to go to continue our own individual journeys as artists.

I think this new forum has the potential to benefit a great amount of people and provide a type of inspiration unlike anything else on this site.

I also