This is something I have been thinking about for a little while now. I should be able to bring it all together next month after the Christmas crunch is over and we get our profit sharing checks from work. After the "Thoughts On Scanning" (http://forums.photographyreview.com/showthread.php?t=38949) thread I thought it might be fun and educational to start a thread on it. I am open to equipment recommendations as well as layout suggestions and just overall input on your own experiences.

Here's the basics:

The Room - Below you will find a diagram of my bathroom. All dimensions are in inches. The tub is actually a clawfoot tub and a little more rounded with a halo above for the shower curtain. The door is on the left wall by the toilet and there is a window on the opposite wall beside the tub. This window is on the backside of the building so not much light. I plan on doing prints at night to help alleviate the possibility of light leaks. Obviously the darkroom will need to be broken down after use and I have space to store everything. This also means I would really like to take a K.I.S.S. approach so it's reasonably quick and easy to set-up and take down.

The Budget - I will have about $500 to spend. This also includes chemicals and paper to get me started. This pretty much rules out purchasing new.

Requirements - Other than keeping it as simple as possible, I will need the ability to process both 35mm and 6x6 negatives. As far as prints, I don't plan on doing anything bigger than 8x10's for now and I would like to experiment with some toning.

I thinking on the far wall, where the window is, I could put a little stand for the enlarger. On the other side, in front of the toilet and sink I could put 3 11x14 trays for developer, stop bath, and fixer. In the bathtub I thought about putting in one of those dish tubs for washing the prints. Across the halo over the bathtub I could put a line for hanging prints to dry.

So that's the basics of it. As you guys know, I have NEVER done any darkroom work and don't know how well this will actually work. What do you guys think? What am I forgetting? I'm open to any input.

Aaron

So, you're talking about putting a stand for the enlarger against the wall near the end of the tub? I guess the door is by the toilet? If you plan to do fiber prints you'll want a fourth tray for perma-wash, but I recommend you start with RC, at least until you understand the basics. Fiber takes a little longer to develop, which is no big deal, but it also needs much more thorough washing, hence the perma-wash. Main reasons to start with RC are that it's quicker and cheaper.

Finding an enlarger that will do both 35mm and 6x6 should be no problem but you will need a lens for each and a negative holder for each. You should be able to print 11x14 just as easily as 8x10, so go ahead and get an easel for 11x14. You'll want the enlarger to be at a comfortable height so you don't have to hunch over too much when you're adjusting the easel, dodging and burning, and focusing...you'll be doing that a lot.

You could put the final print washer in the tub and just let it overflow. A washer that holds the prints vertically is best, with water coming in the bottom and overflowing from the top, to maintain consistent flow. It would also take up less space. It shouldn't be too hard to find a way to connect it to the tub faucet for water supply. Just make sure the temperature doesn't fluctuate too much. It's nowhere near as picky with temps as film developing, though.

You could probably lay some boards over the tub to put the trays on. Keep in mind when you move the prints from tray to tray you will drip some chemicals. You might want to build a little platform with short sidewalls and then seal it so your spills are contained. That would be cheap and easy, but you could get by with out it.

An extra tray or two will come in handy, so you can put things off to the side when necessary, or so you can take a wet print out of the dark room to view it under a real light.

Oh, and make sure you have room for a radio. You can't print with out tunes. :cool:

Paul

Below you will find a diagram of my bathroom. All dimensions are in inches.

Not to pick on you, but this is kinda funny! I'm used to working with drawings for buildings that are bigger than that in feet, so frame of reference... :) And kinda sad because the bathroom I mentioned is maybe half as big as yours! :shocked:

Anyway - I have no print making experience either but what about an exhaust fan? Keep searching Craig's List, Ebay and local camera shops (if applicable) for a used enlarger. It'll probably cost at least as much as the enlarger to actually ship the thing! Don't worry too much about the lens that comes with the enlarger, but if you can swing it you can go top of the line on ebay fairly inexpensively.

Seems like you are well on your way. Its just important to have a dry side and wet side. You don't want wet chemicals on your dry enlarger area, just makes a mess.

And kinda sad because the bathroom I mentioned is maybe half as big as yours! :shocked:

Haha! That "shocked" smilie is cracking me up. Never noticed that one before.

So, you're talking about putting a stand for the enlarger against the wall near the end of the tub? I guess the door is by the toilet? If you plan to do fiber prints you'll want a fourth tray for perma-wash, but I recommend you start with RC, at least until you understand the basics. Fiber takes a little longer to develop, which is no big deal, but it also needs much more thorough washing, hence the perma-wash. Main reasons to start with RC are that it's quicker and cheaper....

Yes and yes on the stand and the door. I had planned on starting with RC as from reading seemed like fiber would be a little more difficult to work with. Plus, wouldn't I need a press or something for it???

Finding an enlarger that will do both 35mm and 6x6 should be no problem but you will need a lens for each and a negative holder for each. You should be able to print 11x14 just as easily as 8x10, so go ahead and get an easel for 11x14. You'll want the enlarger to be at a comfortable height so you don't have to hunch over too much when you're adjusting the easel, dodging and burning, and focusing...you'll be doing that a lot...

I was leaning towards 8x10 max for now just due to budget reasons. For example, 25 sheets of Ilford Warmtone Variable Contrast 8x10 paper is $22.95 while the same thing in 11x14 is available in 50 sheet packs for $78.59. So your talking over 50% more cost wise per sheet.

You could put the final print washer in the tub and just let it overflow. A washer that holds the prints vertically is best, with water coming in the bottom and overflowing from the top, to maintain consistent flow. It would also take up less space. It shouldn't be too hard to find a way to connect it to the tub faucet for water supply. Just make sure the temperature doesn't fluctuate too much. It's nowhere near as picky with temps as film developing, though.

You could probably lay some boards over the tub to put the trays on. Keep in mind when you move the prints from tray to tray you will drip some chemicals. You might want to build a little platform with short sidewalls and then seal it so your spills are contained. That would be cheap and easy, but you could get by with out it.

An extra tray or two will come in handy, so you can put things off to the side when necessary, or so you can take a wet print out of the dark room to view it under a real light.

Oh, and make sure you have room for a radio. You can't print with out tunes. :cool:

Paul

I had planned to do the washing in the tub. I had also thought about cutting a sheet of plywood to put over the tub to work on but, that would be a pain when it came to washing.

I was wondering about the radio though. The question is can I find a modern radio that doesn't throw off a bit of light from LCD's? Or will the tiny bit thrown off even really matter?

Not to pick on you, but this is kinda funny! I'm used to working with drawings for buildings that are bigger than that in feet, so frame of reference... :) And kinda sad because the bathroom I mentioned is maybe half as big as yours! :shocked:

Anyway - I have no print making experience either but what about an exhaust fan? Keep searching Craig's List, Ebay and local camera shops (if applicable) for a used enlarger. It'll probably cost at least as much as the enlarger to actually ship the thing! Don't worry too much about the lens that comes with the enlarger, but if you can swing it you can go top of the line on ebay fairly inexpensively.

The bathroom already has an exhaust that works real well in that little bathroom. I do plan on getting most if not all of my equipment off of Ebay/Craigslist/local classifieds. It's a risk but, prices are way more to buy new. I may put up a "want to buy" thread at APUG as well.

Seems like you are well on your way. Its just important to have a dry side and wet side. You don't want wet chemicals on your dry enlarger area, just makes a mess.

It should work out that way. I hopefully will have my trays on one end and the enlarger on the other, with the tub for washing in the middle.

About the radio, just cover anything that glows with lots of black electrical tape, always worked well in our darkroom, or buy an old ipod shuffle, they had no lights really.

About the radio, just cover anything that glows with lots of black electrical tape, always worked well in our darkroom, or buy an old ipod shuffle, they had no lights really.

Duh! I seriously hadn't even thought of that...LOL I'm a little slow some days :o

Yes, fiber paper is a little more difficult to work with, but nothing to be afraid of. It curls like mad when it dries, so you will have to find a way to press it flat, and a stack of books will not be enough. :) That's the worst thing about it. You should start with RC, but you will want to use fiber after you get in the swing of things...at least for your best prints. You'll pick this up fast. Making a decent print is easy. Making a masterpiece is probably extremely hard, but I wouldn't know. Fiber lasts forever when it's done right. RC probably lasts a long time too, but it's newer technology, so nobody knows for sure. Most gallery exhibits or print sales are fiber paper, because it is considered archival.

As far as the paper size is concerned, I agree with starting small. In fact, I used to buy the 100 packs of Ilford 5x7 to use for proofs. If I liked them, I'd go back and make them bigger. What I meant was that when you buy an easel (print washer too), you should get one that can handle 11x14 paper, because any enlarger will be able to handle 11x14, and you'll eventually want to print that size....especially those 6x6 negs.

A little red light on a radio is no big deal, as long as you don't put the paper close to it. If it's one of those really bright LEDs then it could be a problem. Either way a piece of tape is probably a good idea, or you could just throw a towel over the whole thing.

Thanks again Paul :) The press I should be able to keep in a separate room right? I figure I will only do a handful of prints at a time so I should be able to keep them in the washer til I'm done printing and then take them to the other room to press them right?

Is this what I would need for doing Fiber prints? - http://www.adorama.com/PET2C.html

I always just air dried my fiber prints, but I also had access to a matte press, and we amtted everything we did. We had an RC dryer but I remember something about not being able to dry fiber based in it. I say stick with RC for basics and when you really find a print that you want to keep forever, then switch to fiber and have it matted. Realize that even the kind of paper you use affects tonality and zone calibration.

Once a print is in the fixer, you can turn the light on and look at it...just give it about 20 seconds to make sure it's fully submersed. No darkroom is needed after fixing. You can do the perma-wash, the final wash, the drying, and the pressing in another room if that works better for your set up. Having an extra tray or two would be handy for moving wet prints from room to room, if you do that.

I'm not certain, but it looks like the link you provided is just for a dryer. You don't need a dryer. It would speed things up, but it's not necessary. The print doesn't get pressed flat until after it's completely dry. You would probably wait until the next day to press the prints, if you don't have a dryer.

Just like with film, washing is very important, and over washing is pretty hard to do. If you don't get all the chemicals out, the print will turn yellow and eventually fall apart, so it's best to err on the longer side of recommended wash times.

Just remembered one other thing. For fiber prints, you'll want to squeegee the prints before you hang them to dry. Clean your bathroom mirror and slap the print up on it like a wet noodle. Hold the corners and squeegee the back side of the print. Water will run everywhere, so you'll need something at the bottom to catch it. Or, you could find something else to use instead of your mirror, but it needs to be smooth and clean to protect your print....a piece of plexiglass would do. I guess maybe you could get away with out the squeegee, but I'm not sure...never skipped the squeegee myself.

I second the squeege

Thanks guys :D Stupid question on the squeegee. I've scratched negatives using them. I plan on doing glossy prints. Will I run into any scratching problems with the squeegee? Should I squeegee the back of the print?

Thanks guys :D Stupid question on the squeegee. I've scratched negatives using them. I plan on doing glossy prints. Will I run into any scratching problems with the squeegee? Should I squeegee the back of the print?

As long as you put it on a nice clean flat surface, face down, and squeegee the back, it should be fine. Just don't slide it around too much. I never had a problem. Of course, you shouldn't be too rough with it, because it will tear easier than RC.

I will tell you though, fiber glossy prints are not as glossy as RC or inkjet. They look more like pearl finish on other types of prints and if you get matte, it is really dull...like plane paper.

The resin coating on RC paper generally makes it shinier, stronger, and less absorbent than fiber. It exposes, develops, washes, and dries a little bit faster than RC. But, there's just something about the look of fiber prints.

This is all just technical junk that will make perfect sense once you've done it a few times. The hard part is getting the exposure, contrast, and dodging and burning, the way you want it. And that's more or less the same.

...The resin coating on RC paper generally makes it shinier, stronger, and less absorbent than fiber. It exposes, develops, washes, and dries a little bit faster than RC. But, there's just something about the look of fiber prints...

I'm confused by this part... So RC is glossier but develops slower, while fiber processes faster but isn't quite as glossy? My only experience with seeing fiber prints were with them mounted and framed behind glass. Sorry, been reading most of the day so brain is kinda jello...LOL

I fond development to be about the same, depends on the negative. RC is stronger, cheaper, and much more glossy, but not intended for archival work. Fiber takes longer to wash upwards of 20 mins for 8x10, while RC takes about 5. RC also dries much quicker. I've had fiber prints take longer than a day to dry completley. I find if you wet the squeege a little before you actually squeege the scratching isn't really an issue.

Z

Thanks Z :D

Get a piece of plywood cut 64" x 16" inches. Find a local newspaper or large print shop. Look in their dumpster or ask an employee for two or three blankets. They will be rubber on a canvass backing with metal ends. They can be stretched over the plywood, stapled on at the edges and sealed. This makes an excellent shelf for a home darkroom. The rubber will be easy to clean and prevent the trays from sliding. You put your developing and fixing on the shelf and your wash tray at the bottom of the tub. I use lithographic tape to seal doors. I also have red film that can be used with the tape to do windows. I can send you a few sheets if you need some. I will use the film with tape at the bottom of doors. I just run 1" thick lithographic tape 1/3" in from the edge of both faces of the door, namely the inside and door jam faces.

I have a Besler 45MX, with 50mm lens and 35mm carrier, plus a Gra-Lab 300 timer and a 16''x20" easel, for $250, plus shipping.
It's in great shape and hasn't been used by me.
Looking good!
:thumbsup:
Brian

Brian, pm coming your way :thumbsup:

I'm confused by this part... So RC is glossier but develops slower, while fiber processes faster but isn't quite as glossy? My only experience with seeing fiber prints were with them mounted and framed behind glass. Sorry, been reading most of the day so brain is kinda jello...LOL

You got it backwards. RC develops, exposes, washes, and dries faster than fiber. The washing part is why you want to use perma-wash with fiber. It speeds up the washing and helps ensure you get it clean for archival reasons. The resin in RC keeps it from soaking up as much chemicals and water, so it washes and dries faster than fiber.

Thanks Paul. Going back and rereading your original post makes perfect sense today. Sometimes I need to take the short bus to work :cryin: ...LOL

Well here we are 2 months since my last posting here. Think it's about time I posted an update :o There is a light at the end of the tunnel now. I either have everything I need on hand now or it's en route, so I should be up and running the end of next week (at least according to Fedex tracking). So here's the final shopping list to get myself up and running:

Equipment:

Simmons Automega B-7 enlarger with 50mm, 75mm, and 90mm lenses; 4x4, 6x6, and 6x9 negative carriers; 4 blade masking attachment; 2 supplementary condensers; various lens cones and mounts - $100 on Ebay

35mm glass negative carrier - $11.49 on Ebay

Bellows attachment for B-7 to allow for manual focusing - $10.49 on Ebay

GraLab 300 timer - $28 on Ebay

Premier 11x14 adjustable easel - $9.99 on Ebay

Paterson MF contact proof printer - $21.03 on Ebay

Premier 11x14 print washer (non archival) - $26.99 from Freestyle Photo

Premier 5x7 OC safelight - $29.99 from Freestyle Photo

3 bamboo tongs - $3.99 from Freestyle Photo

print squeegee - $9.99 from Freestyle Photo

3-8x10 trays - $13.50 from Freestyle Photo

3-1 gallon storage jugs - $9.57 from Freestyle Photo

Total equipment cost (not including shipping): $275.03

Chemicals:

3 bottles Ilford Muligrade Developer 500ml - $22.47 from Freestyle Photo

Kentmere Indicator Stop Bath 16oz - $5.39 from Freestyle Photo

2 bottles Ilford Rapid Fixer 1L (non hardening) - $19.18 from Freestyle Photo

Total chemical cost (not including shipping): $47.04

Paper:

3 box lot of Ilford Ilfospeed 8x10 Glossy RC; ~75 sheets Grade 2, ~12 sheets Grade 3, ~90 sheets Grade 4 - $5.59 on Ebay

2 boxes Arista RC Plus 8x10 Glossy Grade 3 - $17.58 from Freestyle Photo

Total paper cost (not including shipping): $23.17

OVERALL TOTAL: $345.24

NOw this is just a basic set-up for now so that I can learn the fundamentals. Burning and dodging tools will be made from coathangers and cardboard. Eventually when I get a little better I hope to move into fiber prints at which time I will add a archival print washer and toning supplies. So how am I doing, did I miss anything?

Aaron, you forgot the most important item...a radio, or at least an iPod. :D

Sounds like you have everything covered. You are probably already know how to deal with dust, but if not, I would recommend an anti-static cloth and some canned air. It's a lot easier to keep dust spots out of prints than it is with scannning, but it can still be a problem.

Why is your print washer non-archival? I don't understand how the washer makes a difference.

I'm so jealous. :cryin:

Paul

...I'm so jealous. :cryin: ...

Jealous? Anyone could set this up. Just takes a little cash, stubbornness, and a very understanding wife/husband/partner/etc...LOL So what are you waiting for? :p :D :thumbsup:

I may eventually get a radio or ipod to use but, I plan on using a metronome to time my dodging and burning. I should have dust pretty well taken care of microfiber cloths and blower bulb.

Why is your print washer non-archival? I don't understand how the washer makes a difference.

The washer I got is just a tray washer (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=1604&pid=1330). It provides adequate washing of RC prints but, not enough to water movement/agitation to fully clean fiber prints to archival standards. For that you would want a vertical washer (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=1604&pid=1295) which allows for full separation of prints while washing and sufficient agitation to fully remove all fixer/hypo from any fiber print. Of course those are in a whole other ballpark price wise :( I've been watching Ebay and other classifieds and you can find nice used 11x14 archival washers for for around $150-$200. Even less if you don't mind some bumps and bruises.

It looks like you got some great bargains. That is very good for all you have bought. Talk about a darkroom on a budget. Just remember who you promised the first print to. Besides Carla I mean, cough, cough.......

Yeah, just don;t forget it's the first print I feel is decent enough not to go in the trash so you could be in for quite a wait...LOL

I am glad you posted this. I think you bought three times the rc paper you needed. I would love to see some of your B&W photos printed on fiber. Matching the qualities in the negative to the properties of the positive is what printing is. Each paper is its own frontier. I think your explorations will be worthwhile. Smoke does look nice on rc film.

Hi reverberation :) I know, it is a lot of paper. The lot of Ilfospeed was sooo cheap though I couldn't resist. Then since I didn't have much grade 3, and the Arista was on clearance, I figured why not. Besides, I'm a "rather have too much than not enough" type of person...LOL At least I have a enough to play with for cheap, so I will have no hesitations with freely experimenting without worrying about throwing away nice expensive paper or worrying about running out.

Hi reverberation :) I know, it is a lot of paper. The lot of Ilfospeed was sooo cheap though I couldn't resist. Then since I didn't have much grade 3, and the Arista was on clearance, I figured why not. Besides, I'm a "rather have too much than not enough" type of person...LOL At least I have a enough to play with for cheap, so I will have no hesitations with freely experimenting without worrying about throwing away nice expensive paper or worrying about running out.

I think you underestimate your photographic skills Aaron. I can see you easily getting good prints within five prints. If you want to try lith prints just let me know because I have some extra lith developer.

I have no doubt that I will be able to attain a properly exposed print fairly quickly. However, I don't consider that as having photographic skill. Anyone can follow a recipe but, doing so doesn't make you a chef. I consider the skill in the creating. Right now I have a handful of negatives I want to work with and I have some pretty specific ideas of how I want them to turn out. Not quite sure how quickly I'll pick up the art of dodging and burning to the point where I can bring what I visualize to reality. I dunno, we'll see I guess. Regardless it will be a fun journey :)

I don't see any contrast filters on your list!

If you don't already have them, I recommend Ilford.

Lookin good otherwise!

Thanks F-15 :) No filters needed. I have graded paper. I do actually have some Ilford filters coming though from a fellow forum member who had some they weren't using anymore. Will need to pick up a filter holder and some VC paper at some point to put the filters to use. Now where the heck is Fedex with the goods? :D

My experience with a darkroom in a laundry is that most importantly you need to separate wet and dry work areas. Also, make sure you have enough bench space for your enlarger and photographic paper (mine was on the floor - not good!). I used to air dry my prints in a different room. You will probably end up doing more prints than you think - buy the box of 250 sheets. You should check how dark or not so dark your bathroom really is at night by sitting in there until your eyes adjust. I made a timber panel for the window that just clipped in when I was working in there. You can buy foam draft sealing strips to fix any light leaks at the door. But having said all that, I suggest you start with a basic set up and fine tune it to suit your work processes. Enjoy - I'm envious!

Jealous? Anyone could set this up. Just takes a little cash, stubbornness, and a very understanding wife/husband/partner/etc...LOL So what are you waiting for? :p :D :thumbsup:

The main thing stopping me is lack of space. I could probably set up a temporary thing in my bathroom, but I don't think that would work for me. Setting it up and taking it all down every time I wanted to print would drive me insane. That's why I got the Coolscan. Hopefully my next house will have an extra room.

Paul

This is one of those thread that's useless without pics!
:biggrin5:
Brian

I don't know what you want a picture of Brian. At this point it would just be a pic of a pile of crap...LOL

I don't know what you want a picture of Brian. At this point it would just be a pic of a pile of crap...LOL

OK then..
But once you get things set up, you had better post some pics!
:D
Brian

LOL... Will do. I promise once the "Ghetto Darkroom" is set-up I will post pics :thumbsup:

Here you go Brian :) This is the set-up I have found works best for the space so far. I may try another arrangement or 2 but, I think this is what I will stick with. I have my developer, stop bath, and fixer trays in the tub. Just outside the bathroom door is the kitchen sink which I filled with water for holding prints until I was done printing, then I washed them when I was finished. So what do you think?

nothing better then a little DIY good job man

In keeping with tradition of my "Ghetto Darkroom", here's my new print drying rack/screen:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2401/2414155023_6963c4ba30_o.jpg

36" x 7' fiberglass screen $6.49:
http://hardware.hardwarestore.com/72-156-window-screen-fiberglass/fiberglass-screen-681837.aspx

1 1/4" x 5/8" capacity binder clips $2.99:
http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?&langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10051&productId=19366&cm Area=SEARCH