in the critique forum the subject of cropping versus not cropping has come up.

it has been suggested that if one forgets that one has a cropping it challenges one to take a better photo.

for the virtual newcomers i am not sure what to look for, what it important and what is not. to me what might look good and included, i find later though that it is unnecessary clutter.

i understand the reasoning behind "not cropping" as perhaps i permits someone to think "that's okay, i'll crop out what i don't need later."

however, i possess very little knowledge and when i offer a shot for critique the crop is an essential learning tool.

also not having a wide array of lenses, i am unable to get in closer or further away. so should i go with the absolute no crop and force my self to look for more subject matter or crop away until my heart's content !! :D

not really, but for right now i am unsure of what makes a good shot and lots of things get included that perhaps should not. is it a good way to learn or not ?

it was suggested that i open this topic here as it, as was correctly pointed out, detracting from a critique in question.

thanks

threelions that's a great topic here :D:D

i have found that the best way to learn is to force yourself to get it right on camera first.... you don't need to go all the way not cropping in post, but don't depend on it!

It is true that one lens is frustrating... I remember a few years back (about 10 basically) when i had just one zoom lens to work with 28-90mm and couldn't understand why anyone would stick to just a 50mm lens and not feel the need to get another... until i learned that i shouldn't be afraid of moving in and out myself...of course you can not always do that!

Back to cropping... the only reason you really crop in post processing, is due to framing... so when you place your subject properly in your frame, you will not need to crop....(which btw is something that is done in the darkroom as well as software)

Framing properly in my opinion is about the following:
1- Centered: usually works best when you are playing on symmetry or working with circular objects that are almost filling the frame
2- off center, in "un-photographic" terms, is intriguing... unusual.... so creates more of an interesting visual

Basically you want to attract attention not just to the photo, but to the subject of your photo... you can do this in many ways, but since here we are talking about cropping... it is enough to say:

1- Usually you don't want to center your subject, unless it is important that you do....

2- You don't want to have in the frame anything that distracts from the subject.... for that... it is important that you don't rely on the way you see with your eyes... what this means is... we have as humans selective vision in our minds... so something which is in our view we do not see because our mind chooses not to pay attention to it... which is why you find out later that there is some "unnecessary clutter".....when looking through the viewfinder...just keep looking all around the viewfinder making sure there is nothing unwanted there!

3- Use the elements around the subject to help in bringing attention to the subject (when applicable of course)

Just as long as you don't make yourself too comfortable on the field, thinking you could always fix it in post!

That's my humble opinion anyway!
Marc

Nice choice for a thread 3lions :) Since Marcus mentioned the 50mm, here's an excellent exercise to try... Choose one focal length on your lens and resolve yourself not to zoom in/out or crop any shots for say a week. This will make you focus a lot more on your composition. If you want to take it a step further, take all of your shots with a tripod. You will pay much closer attention when you also have to think about positioning a tripod for your shots.

I agree with Aarons comments. I hit the composition more often with the Canonet 40mm than I do with the Olympus 510. But with that said I always try and put a little extra around the image because I never know how I want it printed up. 8x12, 11x14, who knows. Sometimes you can't go back and if you get in to close sometimes it limits you when you go to print. Nothing looks worse than a crowded shot in a matte. So when I am out I try and think of how I want the final print to look. Well stated Aaron, I think everyone should try a fixed focal length, if nothing else it's great practice. So, yes when I am out shooting I think I can crop if I like in PPing, but also agree that getting as much right in the field as possible saves time and effort later.

I agree with Aarons comments. I hit the composition more often with the Canonet 40mm than I do with the Olympus 510. But with that said I always try and put a little extra around the image because I never know how I want it printed up. 8x12, 11x14, who knows. Sometimes you can't go back and if you get in to close sometimes it limits you when you go to print. Nothing looks worse than a crowded shot in a matte. So when I am out I try and think of how I want the final print to look. Well stated Aaron, I think everyone should try a fixed focal length, if nothing else it's great practice. So, yes when I am out shooting I think I can crop if I like in PPing, but also agree that getting as much right in the field as possible saves time and effort later.
I have to agree with you there. For years I years I only had Prime lenses and a soft zoom one of the very first ones. You have to compose you shots for many reasons and if you can't get either farther back or get closer you have to change lenses.

threelions, I appreciate your starting a thread here about a worthy topic that began in the Critique forum. I think though that your thread title might be a bit misleading as to your actual concerns, if I'm not mistaken.
I don't think there are many of us that would argue for not cropping at all. Cropping is something that has been done by photographers since the beginning of the photographic process.
Basically the way I feel about it is one should try to get everything as best as one can in the camera so there is less to do afterwards. This includes cropping as well as exposure and other technicals.
However, this does not mean that you should not leave yourself a litle wiggle room when composing in the viewfinder. It's better to have a little more picture to play with than to have too little to be able to do anything with.
Landscape photographers have the luxury alot of times to be able to get things just as they want with little cropping afterwards. Sports photogs have it alot different. They are basically firing off rounds of frames at the action on the field/courts in the hopes of nailing that golden moment, knowing they will be cropping later. With the fast paced action of sports photography, it is too difficult to get the framing just right most of the time and so you can say that they rely on cropping later on.
Try to get it as best you can from the get go, and nothing wrong with cropping to your satisfaction later on.

maybe the title is a bit misleading but hopefully those who read the my "intro" will understand the quandary.

when learning what does or doesn't make a photo, the beginner such as myself really doesn't have much of a clue as to what makes a good (or even great) photo and we tend up including all kinds of unwanted clutter.

therefore as a leaning "tool" in and of itself so far it has become invaluable.

perhaps not such much in the way of improving something but when a more learned eye looks over it, and suggest a different crop or give an example, again not necessarily trying to make a bad photo a great photo, it illustrates to me at least, what things i should be concentrating on. rather than just including just about everything including the kitchen sink. (now there's a thought for something to take on location with you, and i guarantee would make MY photos a lot more interesting :D ) i might find what to leave in and what to leave out of the next photo.

even with rules of thirds and horizons and basic information which i have read, i am still only at the entry stage as to learn what to put into the foreground, what to chose or leave out of the background which all might emphasize the subject better.

i have found that i inadvertently actually crop out while taking shots, and now actually try to look at things a bit differently.

that only came about through reading posts here and looking at photos submitted.

i could change the title of the thread "to crop as a learning tool or not ?" but again with a limited array of lenses sometimes a crop seems to me at least now, the ONLY solution for newcomers to the "art."

however, i find that even very good shots can be made better and even these examples have shown me to look in more depth for subject matter. to the very untrained (but hopefully more trained than before and more to come) eye though it is very hard to do.

i don't believe that i have the talent to become anything other than a very enthusiastic amateur, but i would like to think that with help, and cropping is the example that is that for me, i can become better.

at least i hope so.

even so, i am getting more enjoyment when i try to shoot something differently and try now to look at many ways i might take something before i actually do. the next part is to take those shots from those different perspectives to see what they actually look like.

i have received such great advice and i suppose my statement "i am struggling with cropping right now" sparked off the "debate." basically i meant that and perhaps didn't phrase it so well (english although my native tongue is about as good a my photography) is that i am not sure what to leave in or cut out. by understanding what goes into the difference helps me try to improve the next time out and perhaps "narrows" my vision better.

A few things to consider....
So much good advice and contributions here it is difficult to single out any one of the posts as the one who hit the nail on head, and certainly mine will not either...

1) we need to know what purpose our photo will be used for...e.g. Is it going to be printed? If so what size?
Is it going to be used in a web site? If so what size? 640x480 was the normal size and now it it 800x600 or larger..
Is it Landscape or Sports as was mentioned by Gary? Huge difference here...

2) What effect does the Camera have here as far as MP go?
If we shoot with a 6mp or 10mp and will print only a 6x4 then there is no difference in print quality or web quality...

But if we shoot with a 10mp we have way more room to crop and end up with the same good quality printing at 6X4...Or am I mistaken?

I often shoot sports and car racing and I shoot always at max res, but in order to catch to the subject I often have to shoot with a farther focal range ( 300 instead of 400) and then I crop out the junk I don't want...I do this with out a loss of detail because on my 10.2MP camera the largest I print is 8x10 and usually will post 800x600 on the web...

So these are things to consider...

Hi Folks
OK, here is a pic of a fire house I took yesterday...This picture is original except for the resize so it fits in here...Yes the picture is lousy but my point here is to show that this picture would be greatly enhanced with a crop...In CS2 I would crop and ''rotate'' the photo to make it square...At the same time getting rid of the upper window all together...Would any one care to try and crop this picture to see if we can't improve upon it?..Bad thing is that I used my 6.1 Mp instead of my 10.2, but for web purposes it should be ok.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4930/firehousecp9.jpg

to be honest, i am nowhere remotely close enough to think of a print right now. basically i am trying to find where i don't just take "snaps" which is fine, don't get me wrong) but i think if i can learn a bit more about detail, then my "snaps" will actually be printable in the not too distant future.

provided i can actually find a focal point to make attractive to the eye, then i can narrow the field down somewhat as i will have less clutter and leave more photo, which seems to be the reverse as of right now.

:blush2: :blush2:

:D

threelions
I believe if you are going to be printing photos, then the crops are even important because once they are printed, then they are printed..

i understand that, however my problem is very much more basic i guess.

trying to decide what goes in and what doesn't should allow the later need for minimal crop ~ should i be lucky enough to be close enough to the subject, or only a little more crop should my only other lens not be strong enough.

perhaps i am not explaining it well enough, but i find that i have much more clutter than photo right now.

working with a crop helps others explain ~ illustratively ~ what goes into a better shot.

right now my prints would be about a 2 x 2 !!

picture those sunday coupon clippings that your mum used to do ~ a 1/2 x 1/2 coupon ~ and about 3 pages of sunday paper lying on the kitchen floor !!!



:blush2: :blush2:

:D

Perhaps you should post a pic so we can see it..This way, we will be on the same page.

okay, i took this both as a reminder of how beautiful la jolla looks but also as hopefully something that i "might" be able to hang on the wall. not brilliant but not bad imho.

however i find really no centre of focus so to speak now.

what could i do to help me in future to know what to include and what to leave out ? what to make the centre of the shot and what should be the surrounds ? with my lens limitations i will still have something to edit more than likely most definitely at least for the foreseeable future.

if it falls into the "does nothing for me" category, what could/should have been the focal point ? i still like it from the perspective of a beautiful day and a beautiful place so nothing will change that.

again, that seems to be my problem. how can i begin to train my eye in "what to actually look for" when i am out and about ? (apart from taking 20 -30 shots as time was a constraint).

Threelions..
I like the pics..On the first pic, I would not crop anything out, but I would clone out the adults on the beach and leave the kids...
On the second pic, I crop out half the sky right below that cloud on the right to give the picture more of a landscape wide look to it...I would also darken the sand a little..

But really those are some nice pictures...

I missed the start of the discussion. Basically I never crop because it rarely looks right afterwards. I figure that it just has to look right to the eye and if I try to remove things afterwards it doesn't work.

There are two things that don't look right to me in your image. The first is the guy cut off on the left-hand side. You can have things entering and leaving the image on the edges, it adds a certain dynamism. But it looks out of place on a calm, harmonious image like this one.

The second is the patch of sand just below the little girl, in front of the breaking wave. To me this is where the main subject should be - and it's empty. The little girl should be the subject, but she's crowded up with the cut-off man.

I can explain why an image looks right or wrong after the fact, but when I'm shooting I don't think too much. It's just practice and developing your eye.

First off, kudos for a great topic!

I'm a fan of shooting as close to the end result as possible but I'm not perfect. A lot of times it is possible to find a picture within a picture later. One way to play around with this is to make an uncropped print, then study it for awhile. Use a couple of scrap pieces of mat board (shaped like the letter "L") and move them around the print to see if it works. The sample mat boards at framing stores are great for this, or you could even cut out posterboard in the same shape.

Galen Rowell used to talk about bracketing the composition. A lot of times you're pretty sure of your exposure, but take a moment to really decide what you're trying to show us with your photograph. Maybe you need to move to the left, step forward or back - or maybe there's some detail that really sums up the whole idea even better than the wide view you were looking at. Sometimes a vertical works better than a horizontal too, even if it wasn't at first how you saw the shot. "Previsualize" was the term I learned from him; while you're out there shooting, you decide what you want the print to look like and then get it on film (or memory card...).

Of course this technique is a whole lot easier with things that don't move, like rocks, trees and buildings. Sports and any moving subject adds so much more complexity to it that I wouldn't recommend trying this technique with that kind of shooting just yet.

Moving in and out (a.k.a. zooming with your feet) isn't the same thing as changing a focal length. Standing in one spot and zooming in because you want a tighter view is easier and sometimes better - but work with one focal length to get used to how that works. If you have a 50mm lens, great - otherwise just keep your zoom on 50mm or whatever you choose. Acutally I think it would be a good idea to try this with wide and telephoto lenses too, just to see how they really work.

I guess my main point is to slow down when you're shooting and really try to figure out what it was that made you want to pick up the camera in the first place. Keep at it!

It appears to me that by asking about cropping along with your other composition questions asked in other threads that you are trying to find what makes a good or great photograph.
Sometimes something looks great in the field and then disappoints you when you see it.
That's when you use your editing to crop, adjust levels, whatever..or maybe go crazy with some wild filters or something. You try to get it right in the field and if it takes some crop, then you crop. I recently had a stray piece of grass coming in on the left of one of mine and with just a little crop on the side it was gone. I could have cloned it but chose to crop as I could also then get a good balance with a dark foreground by cropping just a bit of the bottom.
What you need to decide is whether or not YOU like the picture and if it can be improved or not. I've been deleting a lot of junk lately, myself.
When you see a photograph you like a lot, take notes about why you like it so much. Then look for those elements in what you shoot but don't limit yourself either. Your eye learns.....mine does and will continue to I hope.

franglais ~ thanks. that's the kind of information that i can use next time around.

without cropping or not cropping. first of all, make sure that you don't cut people out of the picture. that's something that is informative for the next time. an illustratively cropped shot sometimes explains better than just the explanation or perhaps the explanation plus the crop to illustrate.

i would like someone to crop a picture and then i can compare the two to see what in future to include and what to leave out ~ not in a crop but in the actual frame. even if it is an "insignificant person" that i have cut in two.

before i would not even LOOK for that. as for the little girl ? good point. next time i will be able to (and possibly find) that interesting "little girl' and make her the feature.

another view ~ i love the input. great insight and offering something that i didn't know. good idea about the mat board. again something that i can use in future.


frog ~ great input, as per usual. i joined this forum as i am sure did others, not only to have my work "critiqued" perhaps as a finished article but more as "how can i improve" and in that it has been invaluable. i would have to say that i am not specifically asking "what makes a great picture", but more what can i learn from the picture that i took, cropping it to make it more focal and then to take that information and apply it next time out.

a book is a great "teacher" but when you read something and think "what about when x = y ?" and you can't ask a book a forum is a great place to come. there are folks who are have been where you are now, and they want to get where the "next" person is.

forums are an alive book so to speak.

perhaps the title wasn't quite what i meant, more so perhaps "can a crop be used as a learning tool" or similar.

i don't think that i will anytime soon, quite know what makes a picture a great picture. there is another forum that i read a lot and one of the information pages says something about "what sometimes you leave OUT rather than leave IN can make a great picture."

all i am trying to do, is what it seems even the more "qualified" on here do is learn more e in order to share a great "hobby" for most and perhaps what might make a great photo that might win an award, or one that everyone just is gobsmacked by.

me ? i will settle for one right now that i get to "keep."

there are pictures that i like that evoke memories. i think that i would like to put them on my wall as a reminder of where i was and in whose company i was at that time. not necessarily it was a great photo.

BUT learning and putting into thought something that i learned that could turn that same photo and by moving in or out, including or excluding would make it so much BETTER.

then i would have the satisfaction of saying to myself, "x' months/years ago i wouldn't have even SEEN that, but thanks to a lot of helpful folks who donated the time and input to help me. made it what hangs right there."

national gallery or houston museum of fine arts, CLEAR A SPACE I'M TELLING YA !!

:D :D :D

thanks again to all who have contributed here and in the critique forum. it's not only when you post your own photos but more likely when someone else does that you learn more.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

One thing that I find is proven over and over again to me, Less is More. sometimes busy shots that are cluttered with various elements work if they are handled right. Most often than not, the less you include in a photo, the stronger it may be. Simplicity is powerful.
The tendancy for amatuers is to try to include "everything" in the scene. This is a common mistake, and as a matter of fact, one of the first pictures I ever posted when I first started out was critiqued as having included too much. Here is a link to one of my first threads to this forum when I first started out. It might be interesting to see the photo and the comments I received.
http://forums.photographyreview.com/showthread.php?t=427

I have only been shooting for about a year now with a SLR. I went digital so I could PP what I shoot. Saying that, I still want to shoot the prefect photo, never having to PP. I strife to take that shot where when I bring it up on my screen and look at it. I can say, that is the best that I can do, and not have to do anything else. But, I am not there and so, PP is part of me taking pictures.
It's my feeling that if we all could take that perfect shot,every time, none of us would have every considered buying a digital.

Saying that, I still want to shoot the prefect photo, never having to PP

I think that post processing in general is a whole different thing, but then of course cropping is a part of PP. Digital images aren't at their best right out of the camera, and even a light touch in PP will make some really nice improvements. I started out shooting slides and I guess I try to make my images look like they might have if shot on slide film, which is a completely different look (it's all in the subtleties). Cropping is one thing, some of the other adjustments are something completely different. IMO, of course.

It's my feeling that if we all could take that perfect shot,every time, none of us would have every considered buying a digital.

People have been doing darkroom manipulation since the beginning, so it's really not a new concept. I really enjoyed the challenge of shooting slides because you're done as soon as you push the shutter release. Sure, you could scan and do whatever you want later in PP but my best results were from using a really good slide (composition, exposure, sharpness) and making the scan look like the slide. If it wasn't for the expense of doing it and the general state of photo labs these days, I'd probably still do it. I really look at digital as just another medium for photography - each (color slide, b&w neg, digital, wet plate) has its advantages and disadvantages.

Well unfortunately for me I have been out of internet reach for a couple of days and have returned to find so much spoken and said...all beautiful points, and before i post my own reply, i would like to apologize should i be repeating something that someone else has already said. If i do, then kindly consider that i am agreeing with whoever said it.

That being said, I agree with frog's comment about specifying that it seems you are looking mostly for what makes a better photo. The clutter you are talking about usually is not solved so much with a crop. The crop, which ends up changing the framing or composition, does improve, but not enough if there were clutter, if the lighting were not "ideal" (or proper) as well as other elements.

I would like to add that, for what you need you should take into consideration something that is best explained by writers (mostly): To become a better writer you need to read a lot.

Hence, to become a better photography, you need to keep looking at photographs. However, like any art, you also need to practice..... trying things out and experimenting is what will make you a great photographer... So my suggestion would be... browse as many photographers websites as you can, and buy books (with photos not necessarily study materials) as much as you are willing to spend on them!

One more you mentioned threelions, is you don't think you have the talent... In my opinion, talent is simply passion combined with practice from an early age. talented people seem to do things naturally and that is simply because of how passionate they are about what they are doing, and because they have been doing it for a while....

If you don't have the talent now, you will soon enough, for as long as you persevere and keep loving the photographic process....

And when you try and when you experiment... go for it all.... during shooting as well as during post (digitally or otherwise)..... hold nothing back..... But most important of all..... DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MAKE MISTAKES!!!!

And that is about all i have to say for now!

Marc

thanks for all of the advice.

Gary ~ i followed your link and hey presto !! that's the same thought that goes through my mind when i take a photo.

i might have mislabeled the title as it wasn't necessarily trying to make a case for either but how to actually learn to crop at especially a beginner stage so that you can see what it is you "should" look for.

the photos in your link made me think the same thing. next time out i will try to narrow my "focus" down.

someone posted that there is nothing wrong with taking pictures at all ~ they are memories.

however, HOW you can make that memory say "something" is an entirely different thing.

Marcus ~ judging by your input i should be a writer !! having read about 1 zillion "pulp fiction" types. as for the talent side of things may i quote you:

In my opinion, talent is simply passion combined with practice from an early age

there's the rub !! i wasted my youth.......

:D

i do think though that "talent" is defined as perhaps 2% of the population (gifted and talented) and i honestly don't mind not becoming a GREAT photographer. i teach kids to play "football" ~ soccer ~ and that's where i am lucky in that i have a job that i love. however, i DO want to be a better photographer which is why i joined this (and another) forum.

the help is tremendous and as Gary showed, we all seem to have the same or similar questions at the very early levels (and maybe beyond) and it's kind of like being at a crossroads and not having a guide there to help.

however, reading what you folks input and trying to go out and be adventurous is obviously a next step. however, being armed with some knowledge is preferable.

in football they say "the game teaches" but it still needs help. incorrect technique is still incorrect technique and no amount of practicing will help correct it ~ without input from others who know.

practice makes perfect ~ NO, practice makes permanent.

thanks again for the time and trouble.

onwards and upwards.

seems like this sunday is ANOTHER (extremely rare to get one, let alone TWO in a row)
OFF day.

:thumbsup:

Well unfortunately for me I have been out of internet reach for a couple of days and have returned to find so much spoken and said...all beautiful points, and before i post my own reply, i would like to apologize should i be repeating something that someone else has already said. If i do, then kindly consider that i am agreeing with whoever said it.

That being said, I agree with frog's comment about specifying that it seems you are looking mostly for what makes a better photo. The clutter you are talking about usually is not solved so much with a crop. The crop, which ends up changing the framing or composition, does improve, but not enough if there were clutter, if the lighting were not "ideal" (or proper) as well as other elements.

I would like to add that, for what you need you should take into consideration something that is best explained by writers (mostly): To become a better writer you need to read a lot.

Hence, to become a better photography, you need to keep looking at photographs. However, like any art, you also need to practice..... trying things out and experimenting is what will make you a great photographer... So my suggestion would be... browse as many photographers websites as you can, and buy books (with photos not necessarily study materials) as much as you are willing to spend on them!

One more you mentioned threelions, is you don't think you have the talent... In my opinion, talent is simply passion combined with practice from an early age. talented people seem to do things naturally and that is simply because of how passionate they are about what they are doing, and because they have been doing it for a while....

If you don't have the talent now, you will soon enough, for as long as you persevere and keep loving the photographic process....

And when you try and when you experiment... go for it all.... during shooting as well as during post (digitally or otherwise)..... hold nothing back..... But most important of all..... DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MAKE MISTAKES!!!!

And that is about all i have to say for now!

Marc


Marc
you do not need to say more...That was excellent :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

As the one who started the "crop/not crop" controversy, I'm glad I found this thread. I will just reiterate what I said in that thread, which is that, to me, it seems a lot smarter to spend creative/constructive energy on composition, rather than cropping. But by all means I was not saying one should never crop. I was just saying that when shooting, one should shoot as if they don't have the ability to crop during PP.

I would not steer beginners away from cropping. As a beginner myself, I have found quite a bit of success by cropping pictures to make them look the way I want them to. And in the process of doing so, I learn a bit more about how to better frame the pictures I take next time. Also, someone mentioned sports photography, and they were right on the money. When I photograph a sporting event, my pics always seem to come out looking like snapshots. However, after going through them and cropping, they look like they were taken from Sports Illustrated! (well okay, maybe not)

I would not steer beginners away from cropping. As a beginner myself, I have found quite a bit of success by cropping pictures to make them look the way I want them to. And in the process of doing so, I learn a bit more about how to better frame the pictures I take next time. Also, someone mentioned sports photography, and they were right on the money. When I photograph a sporting event, my pics always seem to come out looking like snapshots. However, after going through them and cropping, they look like they were taken from Sports Illustrated! (well okay, maybe not)

These are my feelings as well..

it seems a lot smarter to spend creative/constructive energy on composition, rather than cropping

I would not steer beginners away from cropping

I think you're both right. Shoot with the intention of getting everything as close to the finished image in-camera as possible, but don't be afraid to look at the images later (with the benefit of hindsight) to see if a different crop works better.

I find that cropping is sometimes an unfortunate requirement. :mad2: I like to shoot wildlife - waterfowl, birds, etc. Unfortunately (?) the city I live in is surrounded by farmland, all fenced and posted No Trespassing and if if you could trespass, you have to watch out for that feisty cow or bull that may not want you around. Most of the ponds with waterfowl are contained within these fenced areas and all I can do is take pictures from the gravel roads. This means unless the birds are close to the road I have to use a long telephoto and even then I get a lot of stuff I do not want, or need, in the image, therefore to get what I want in the final image, I selectively crop parts of it. Notice I said selectively. I try not to crop for the sake of cropping because sometimes the original image is a good picture. :)

Anyway, my 0.02.

WesternGuy