General standards for critique are those used in Salon Photography which governs everything from high level competitions among professionals to the quality judgements related to photos that are accepted to high quality scenic, travel, or other specialty magazines and forums.

The efforts in creating these standards have been to go beyond personal opinion to a set of guidelines, or rules, that can be used in a more objective manner to judge artistic and photographic quality. Whether you like them or not, whether you think they are pompous or not, they are nevertheless fundamental to the nature of quality photography.

These guidelines or rules fall into two separate but integrated areas. Just as paint, brush, palette and canvas are the tools for some artists, the camera, lights, flash, tripod, lenses, are the tools of the photgrapher. The first area is technique and proper use of the tools of photography. The photographer has choices related to the use of certain camera functions and accessories to make a high quality photo and the first major rule is that all those choices MUST contribute to the quality of the photo. If they do not,...as in fuzzy focus, poor lighting, loss of detail, wrong shutterspeed,....in effect mistakes or bad choices, then the photographer has a lot to learn and should get back to studying his camera. In the world of professional competition there is no sympathy. Come back when you have done your homework and paid your "dues" so to speak through hard work, effort and dedication.

The elements of design or composition from the artistic field are used in judging the artistic value of photos. There is some science involved here in the sense of how the eye moves through a photo, what attracts it, the effect of colour, texture, shape, line, contrast etc., and a study of photos that almost everyone would judge as top quality, artistic works.
It is easy to get a list of these judging criteria from major competitions in photography or even find them in some art curricula or books on design, fine art and photography.
The major one is a strong centre of interest that immediately attracts the eye, communicates something to the viewer, and every other aspect of the photo from technical to artistic details contributes to the strength and power of the centre of interest and what it communicates to the viewer. As I remember the sphinx and the jet was extremely effective in that regard and what was interesting was that there was TOTAL agreement from all the postings.

Now, some people like to praise all photos. They are definitely not helping anyone and even more negatively, encouraging mediocre photography. Those perpetual praisers may be nice people but they desperately need to do their research on what constitutes a quality photo. Take a course, buy books, join a photography club, but d**** it, take the time to really learn something about critiquing photos, and what constitutes quality work.
Stop the silly excuses and the "shirtyness" to borrow a term from one of the moderators.

Ronnoco

Ronnoco,
You make some very good points about critiquing methods. However, I feel you have missed a few points. Critiquing doesn't need to be harsh to be effective and some of the sugar coated critiques may actually teach more than a harsh critique.
You are correct that the world of competition is "dog eat dog" and that is well understood, but one of the wonderful things about this site is that we don't eat dogs, and yet we learn. I have been in the competition world of music, I have written some poetry, and now I take pictures. I have been harshly critiqued and I have had many critiques that were sugar-coated. I have actually learned more from the sugar-coating. Now, it is true that some people will learn better by the harsher critique, but there is room for both as long as the critiquing is meant to improve and, especially on a site like this, we keep in mind that most people here are just learning or only in it for the enjoyment of photography.
I think your points are exceptional when it comes to competition, but when you are trying to teach, in my experience and IMHO, it is usually better to be positive and by being positive, bring out the best in an individual. Positive critiquing does not perpetuate mediocrity, but harsh critique may cause someone to feel like they have nothing to offer. And regardless of the mediocrity, everything and everyone has something to offer.
I hope that you understand that I respect and understand your post completely and hope that you understand that I feel there should be more to critiquing than the limited options you offered.
I have appreciated many of your critiques, but feel many times that you could have said the same thing without being so harsh. Enjoy everything that is photography whether it be poor, mediocre or a masterpiece. And when you critique...try to teach, not look down on!
Thanx for you insights.
Ken

Ronnoco, my impression of this site and forum is that it is a place where people of ALL experience can come and post and learn. I've never come here thinking that it was a forum for "professional competition" or critique in that sense.
One thing that you might need to do is take yourself back to some of the members' earlier photos and see the improvements that HAVE happened through this forum. I know I've felt like this was a fabulous learning experience, even without someone hovering over me with "technical" terms and such. I've also learned more about the critiquing process through the people here, and again...maybe I don't use the correct terminology, but I can certainly tell someone what I think works in their photo, and have it be understood.

My suggestion to you would be to teach by example with your critiquing. Rather than creating a whole new thread in this forum about the "Standards for Critique", and rather than critiquing the critiques, concentrate on trying to help people who have posted photos improve their photos. This is your goal, right? It should be, if you're posting here.

Emily

Huh? Wa?

Seems to me that the meat of this message gets obscured by the pedantic tone.

We are not professional critiquers just like many of us are not professional photographers. It takes a lot of nerve to submit anything to review from your peers, so I would never be harsh in any of my critiques. Be harsh or overly blunt doesn't make that critique any more valid. I would never want to discourage anyone from posting a picture, or from ever taking another picture. Photo contests are subjective anyway, it all comes down to personal preference of the judge no matter what they say.

The guidelines for this forum have been clearly posted and recently updated by the moderators. The other responders to this thread have also stated well the tone of this particular forum. So let's have a look at you for a second shall we since you are so eager to admonish all of us.

What I rather resent is that you have 365 posts but only 20 threads you have actually started. Of those 20 only 3 have been in the critique forum and only one of those had an image attached to it, and a rather oblique image it was at that, which you basically defied anyone to criticize and refused to explain The rest of your posts seem to contain some various forms of braggertry or condemnation depending on your whim.

To be honest I'm pretty full up of your lip and kindly invite you to put up or shut up. You qualify yourself as a professional but maybe you can just afford the professional equipment. From what I've seen of YOUR work I'm none to impressed. So let's see what you've got, because according to your profile you've got no cred., no references, not even a website. I think you're just stirring the pot and I intend to avoid you like the plague from now on.

To be honest I'm pretty full up of your lip and kindly invite you to put up or shut up.

Can I get an AMEN brother!

Ronocco - some good points and I recognise most of what you were saying. For myself, I am a member of a local photoraphy society with a programme that includes a lot of competitions. I have done some judging myself at these events. The interesting thing is that, invariably, the very best judges are those who are able to critique an image fairly while continuing to be encouraging - after all, this is a hobby for most of us, not a career. It is possible with almost any image to make fair points about how a picture might be better, while accentuating the bits that the photographer got right. I agree that it does nobody any good just to praise an image with obvious faults, but surely it is possible to sweeten the faults with a little sugar - remembering that the aim of the judge is to help people take better pictures and not to destroy their confidence. Another point is that good judges will make allowances for the level of photographer. My own club has two classes: intermediate and advanced - and most judges will be "kinder" to the intermediate than to the advanced. This too is fair, I think. In this forum we have people just starting out, and we have some obviously experienced and gifted photographers. I think it right and proper to take this into account when submitting a critique - an experienced photographer can take (and probably wants) a little more technical criticism than a beginner. Finally, thank you for your kind words about Ramses and the Jet (a photo which, incidentally, I have entered into a local exhibition).

Mike

While everyone has said it far nicer than I think you deserve, I'll agree with the gist of their suggestions. Most of us here are not looking to be perfect. We want to just be better. We enjoy what we're doing and enjoy sharing each others works. If we all strived to meet your standards, many of us would simply stop taking images altogether. Because most of us will never meet that level of expectation. We want to have fun, not necessarily make money. Those that wish to get to that level, probably aren't hanging out at this forum, or at least not depending on our critiques to get to where they want to go.

Some of us simply want to improve our snapshots. We don't want to really delve into the rule of thirds, or hear about balanced lighting and composition so much as to keep in mind not to cut off the feet or the head and maybe leave a little more room for Aunt Marge's hair, and watch out that trees don't grow out of their heads.

There's a cliche that states "If you want anything done right..." so my suggestion, since this forum obviously isn't going to bend to your wishes, is to go off, start your own and attract folks more in keeping with your ideals.

Ronnoco, I want to have your babies. We can shout at little Janey when she doesn't get straight A's and whip little Billy when he tries to play with himself. Ahh, one can only dream...

Ronocco; Are you standing on the top of a mountain with a megaphone to your mouth as you spout out all this? Jeez! What verbal diarrhoea.

What he said is valid about hardcore pro competition, but this forum is a different form of critique, I think. Not all critiques are the same in terms of their aim. We don't critique simply for the sake of poking holes, as the intial post invites us to do.

We critique to improve our game. I think this forum is like a group of golfers trying to take shots off their game. We're not all PGA masters and if we bogey a couple holes we shouldn't be written off, metaphorically speaking. And when it comes to improving at anything, positive, constructive approaches invite the photographer to improve and try new things. I think that's what we're here for. The art world too often fills with snobbery, but I like to think this forum does away with that and lets the average Joe try his hand at photography and at improving his game... and you'll only get better if you recognize that room for improvement is there.

I always get a good laugh from your posts in this forum. You do make some valid points in other threads elsewhere. I have yet to be to a competition tht doesn't have a category based on experience. If there are seperate cat. for each level, then obviously it must be judged with experience as a consideration. If experience were irrelevent (as you suggest), there would be no beginner or intermediate category.

The PSA (photographic society of america), sponsers many competitions with these categories. As said, not everyone wants to be a "pro" anyway. Being a "pro" can be a pain. Besides, if you really know anything about business you would realize that to sell to the masses you must only be a good saleman. Many companies sell crap everyday to the masses, because they market thmselves the right way, it has nothing to do with quality.

Furthermore, many MANY people use this forum to expirement. Sometimes just letting them know it appeals to a viewer is enough, because they are talented enough to reshoot and provide a strong finished product.

In the last judging I attended, the judges almost always started out with "interesting photo" or " strong elements" and was followed by a "but". Even first place awards were followed with a "but". True judges are also coaches.

You can say what you want, and think as you wish. However, this forum is what it is, and whatever that may be to you, to some it is inspiration and lessons, no matter how sugar coated. It has helped me a great deal, as well as many others.

However, I am sure in your mind many of us are nobodys. Then again, I really don't care if you think I am a nobody. Unlike you though, our creds. are available to anyone who wants them, and we post here regularly.

ronnoco, it is a same that you are such an pompous ass. You have great suggestions and have a lot of knowledge to offer this community, but it is all wasted when it comes across offensive and abrasive.
It seems to me your despicable attitude is a blight on a rather great forum.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6834/puke4xj.gif

It appears to me we have two camps here...Those who post images for critique and those who critique,,a few of us do both..
I challenge those who only critique to post a few images in this forum ..In other words put up or shut up..Another gripe of mine,,those who only critique rarely have images in galleries on this site..You know who you are,,we are watching you!!!

(Taking my soap box,,placard and thermos of weak tea and crawling back into my hole)

Jurgen
Australia

1. Sometimes I just like to 'show and tell' so I deposit my photos in Viewfinder or Sports.
2. Sometimes I need to find out where my photography is headed, so I post in Critique

I don't mind a suggestion about how to improve. While I don't want to have someone flog me, I support good strong critique. I've been on the recieving end of some of that, and while it isn't easy to swallow, it's always something that I try to absorb and put to use. I don't mind a little sugar either. Ronnoco is maybe asking us to be a little stronger, and a little less willing to hand out the sugar. Some of us don't feel comfortable being "harsh" or blunt with our critiques of others' work. While his experience makes it easy for him to look at photos with the critical eye, most of us feel better just using a gentle nudge.
As Emily pointed out, if you go back and look at the progress a lot of us have made, I think you'll see that critiquing to help has far more merit than the other way.

what a critique is and has always been to me is based on one principle - there is always room for improvement. so when i would do a critique, i would try something more along the lines of - "i like that you did this, maybe you could try this too"....

I don't mind a suggestion about how to improve. While I don't want to have someone flog me, I support good strong critique. I've been on the recieving end of some of that, and while it isn't easy to swallow, it's always something that I try to absorb and put to use. I don't mind a little sugar either. Ronnoco is maybe asking us to be a little stronger, and a little less willing to hand out the sugar. Some of us don't feel comfortable being "harsh" or blunt with our critiques of others' work. While his experience makes it easy for him to look at photos with the critical eye, most of us feel better just using a gentle nudge.
As Emily pointed out, if you go back and look at the progress a lot of us have made, I think you'll see that critiquing to help has far more merit than the other way.

You are right to a certain extent. The difference in handing out sugar is whether you are handing it out to a photographer who through his/her photo has shown that he/she has made an effort to learn the basics and is part way there, or whether you are complementing poor focus, poor technique, and no centre of interest whatsoever. I checked out the web site of one praiser and found that he demonstrates no eye at all for quality work. Some "praisers" have a lot to learn about critique and I am bluntly indicating a need here.

Those who are reluctant to be "harsh" or "blunt" about another's work, should realize that false praise does not really encourage anyone. Moreover if characterizations are used to ignore valid but direct critique, then the photographer is inhibiting their own growth and improvement as well.

There have been some pretty silly characterizations, that some have used as excuses but they are not at all valid. I have lots of varied photographic experience and have acquired a good eye as a result. Anyone who wishes to characterize that statement as bragging or pompous as some have already, does not have the attitude or intelligence to become a good photographer. I apply my critical eye equally to my own work, by the way, as one of the moderators will confirm.

Ronnoco

It appears to me we have two camps here...Those who post images for critique and those who critique,,a few of us do both..
I challenge those who only critique to post a few images in this forum ..In other words put up or shut up..Another gripe of mine,,those who only critique rarely have images in galleries on this site..You know who you are,,we are watching you!!!

(Taking my soap box,,placard and thermos of weak tea and crawling back into my hole)

Jurgen
Australia

I agree with you that people who post critique need to post images as well, but some of us don't have the means to post our images. Whether it be lack of a digital camera, scanner, or funds for a lab to put images on a cd. I do my own darkroom work at my school and rarely have someone else develop my prints. If this makes my critiques less valid then I will gladly not do so until I have the means to put images on this forum.

I only want to make other people feel better about taking photos, and hopefully by looking at enough of others and making points about theres it will help my own photography. I don't take your post as harsh and I hope you don't take mine the same.

Zack

Ronnoco,
Thanks for making this post. I haven't had any kind of internet access for the past few days and am just getting back to the forums.
Like everyone has said you make some great points, in this and the other post you made.
I feel the comments you are making are helpful but only to a degree. I feel that some of your suggestions work only for competitions and not for an online community of photographers whose experiences are widely varied.
I am of the opinion that you get out this community and others like it, what you put into it.
I am been apart of the print competitions you speak of as well as some good old fashioned face to face critiques, so I for one have developed the thick skin needed to handle tough criticism, but a lot of people haven't. So coming here, behind the anonymity of being online is important to them.
One thing you you haven't seem to hit on, is that photography means a lot of different things to everyone that comes here.
As much as I would like to see better comments, I think people are getting what they need from here, and that's a good community of photographers.
Ultimately, the community should dictate what they want from here.
Brian

You are right to a certain extent. The difference in handing out sugar is whether you are handing it out to a photographer who through his/her photo has shown that he/she has made an effort to learn the basics and is part way there, or whether you are complementing poor focus, poor technique, and no centre of interest whatsoever. I checked out the web site of one praiser and found that he demonstrates no eye at all for quality work. Some "praisers" have a lot to learn about critique and I am bluntly indicating a need here.


Ronnoco

Ronnoco, if I'm the praiser with no eye you're referring to, I'll admit I've got a looooong way to go as a photographer. I'm constantly trying to improve and need all the help I can get. Feel free to critique any time.
John

Is it me but where's the photo to critique - surely this should be in the help forum.

As for myself I am happy for anyone to critique no matter what level they have attained or what eye that they cast over my photo's. I'm even happy for people to e-mail me about the photo's I have placed on my web site if they wish.

However, one thing that is now beginning to annoy me is the arrogance that you (Ronnoco) seem to show. I have not yet seen any of your photo's on here for critique even if the moderators have. But it would be useful for you to place your perfect photo's on here so that the rest of us can learn from them.

I have sat through critique's at photog clubs and frankly I don't always agree with the professional who critiques at these places, purely because my taste differs from his. I also believe that rules are, on occasions, meant to be broken, e.g. centred v rule of thirds.

Your critique on occasions is not tough but downright unhelpful and nasty and puts people especially beginners off coming to forums like this for help in improving. Some beginners come here with no knowledge of the rules and it is up to us to point out to them what they are doing wrong and what they are doing right in a polite, encouraging, and helpful way.

Can I suggest politely that you think about the person you are trying to help and not be so brash in your responses.

On my photos feel free to let rip cause I can take it - I'm old enough to work out what your saying without taking offence.

Roger

PS. Your points you gave for critiquing are good points and will help people think about the photos, however a load of us already apply those rules and a few more besides. Photography is subjective and always will be.

This by far is the best response yet. I agree with you 100%.

Now, some people like to praise all photos. They are definitely not helping anyone and even more negatively, encouraging mediocre photography. Those perpetual praisers may be nice people but they desperately need to do their research on what constitutes a quality photo. Take a course, buy books, join a photography club, but d**** it, take the time to really learn something about critiquing photos, and what constitutes quality work.
Stop the silly excuses and the "shirtyness" to borrow a term from one of the moderators.

Ronnoco

I spend much time looking at the photos here. Reading and never posting.

First I study a posted pic, form my opinion and then read the responses. For me it is a great learning tool.

My photography for the most part is sports, but I have recently started trying taking some portrait type shots of my daughter & really need help with them. For me to put her pic up here to be told she has something wrong with her that I should PS out and to have a snarky critique is the reason I don't post pics here. I'm not a pro photog & probably will never be. However, I love the photography & spend a lot of time working on it. It would be a valuable tool for me to get advice but I'm not interested in a specific type of professional critique. It is those types of critiques that make me keep my pics outside of sports to myself & my sports shots stay on the sports board.

On the sports board I'm always commenting on pics I like. I'm trying to stop because it seems silly..... Then again, maybe someone may be a beginner such as myself and appreciate that. It takes a lot of courage to post my pics on the sports board and everyone has always been so kind to me there. If they were cruel I would have been long gone and missed out on many wonderful things I've learned there. I've also had other newbies thank me for putting myself out there because they've learned from the questions I've asked & then had the courage to ask their own.

Help is something I appreciate. Some comments I've read here are brutal and imo guised as professional. It reminds me of the donkey in racing silks analogy. No matter how you dress it up, it's still a donkey in racing silks.

Can I get an AMEN brother!



AMEN!
:rolleyes: ;) :p :D

I spend much time looking at the photos here. Reading and never posting.

First I study a posted pic, form my opinion and then read the responses. For me it is a great learning tool.

My photography for the most part is sports, but I have recently started trying taking some portrait type shots of my daughter & really need help with them. For me to put her pic up here to be told she has something wrong with her that I should PS out and to have a snarky critique is the reason I don't post pics here. I'm not a pro photog & probably will never be. However, I love the photography & spend a lot of time working on it. It would be a valuable tool for me to get advice but I'm not interested in a specific type of professional critique. It is those types of critiques that make me keep my pics outside of sports to myself & my sports shots stay on the sports board.


Jeta,

Thank you for being so brave and posting this response - I was once like you eager to learn but the Internet wasn't around in those days.

Please post some pics so that we can help as this is what this forum is all about. By the way I'm not a pro photographer and I have never claimed to be a pro and in my critiques I try to give what I believe will help the photograph and the photographer.

Don't be scared - post away as that is the only way to learn. I looked at some of the posts you made on the Sports forum so I don't think you've got much to be worried about.

OH! by the way according to some of Ronnoco's rules some of Lord Patrick Lichfields portraits would get a slating and they sell for £1000's - go figure!

Roger