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  1. #1
    Not Just a Junior Member
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    Nighttime Photography

    Those of you interested in unusual photographic methods might be interested in the following article on nighttime photography.

    The November, 2005 issue of Optics and Photonics News contains an article on nighttime photography by Dr. Joseph A. Shaw, Associate professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Montana State University. Illustrating his thesis with several nighttime photographs (one included here) he shows that the colors of the night sky and of the landscape it illuminates are the same as those found in the daytime. In other words it is possible to take the same pictures at night, without flash photography, showing the same colors, as would be taken in the daytime. This is a result most of us would not expect since what we see at night appears mostly black and white.

    Shaw observes that the primary source of light, day or night, is the sun, and the nighttime sky is illuminated mostly by sunlight reflected from the moon. The nighttime sky appears black and white to us because of the physiology of the human eye under dim light conditions. But cameras do not have this limitation and can produce accurate color where we see only black and white. This is especially true of digital cameras, which produce pictures under an exceptionally broad range of illuminations. Film doesn’t do quite as well. It is less sensitive at long exposure times (called reciprocity failure). Of course if we want to take photographs using moonlight, and have them appear like daylight photographs, we have to use very long exposure times. Shaw calculates that exposures under full moon conditions have to be about 500,000 times longer than in daylight. A photograph made at 1/1000 second at f/5.6 in daylight would require an exposure of about 8 minutes at f/5.6 at night. Stars appear as streaks in these pictures due to the rotation of the earth during the exposure. If you point your camera toward the North Star you will find that these streaks form circles around it.

    Exposure time varies with the phase of the moon and the location of the moon in the sky. Shaw did not discuss photographs taken when there was no moon. Starlight alone will be hundreds of times darker than moonlight and may not have the same color spectrum, so that pictures taken without the moon might show different coloring. If you want to take nighttime pictures try to find locations where there are no city lights, because they can overpower the natural light, a problem astronomers contend with on a regular basis.

    So go try this and post some results. Dr. Shaw says he will answer any questions you might have, and I’d like to know if you found this posting of value.

    Photo Dad
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Nighttime Photography-nighttime-photograph.jpg  

  2. #2
    Member anew's Avatar
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    now that is impressive!!!

    i have experimented with extremely long exposure times at night - mainly due to a fascination with this theory, but never found out about the technical facts regarding it, and that photo is an amazing example of this idea!

    thanks for posting this up, and i intend experiment as soon as i can. if i get anything of interest i'll post it.

    thanks
    anew.

  3. #3
    Jared Pose's Avatar
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    I'm on it! Give me a couple of days and I'll see what I can get.

    -Jared

  4. #4
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Your Photo?

    So you did it! I'd forgotten about this project. I'm glad you posted it. Your condensed version of the story is excellent. Is the photo yours? If so, where was it taken?
    Photo-John

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  5. #5
    Hardcore...Nikon Speed's Avatar
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    Hey PhotoDad,

    Interesting article. And moonlight is definitely required to get this effect.

    For those that may be interested, the sun shines at magnitude -26. The moon shines between magnitude -10 to -13, depending on how full it is. Each magnitude represents an increase (or decrease) in brightness of 2.5 times. So basically, the sun is about 100 times brighter than the moon.

    Also of note, while reciprocity failure will shift the colors on most films, some are noted for their ability to hold a true color. Provia 100 has long been a favorite of astronomers for it's lack of color shift.

    While you're experimenting, try using different films, and use print film as well as slide film. You'll get some interesting results.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Your Photo?

    Dr. Shaw took the picture. Pretty amazing isn't it!
    Photo Dad

  7. #7
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    Speed:
    Thanks for the input. I see that you list astronomy as an interest. I usually use Provia 100 film and I didn't even know it didn't shift color for long exposures.
    Photo Dad

  8. #8
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Mt. Diablo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Dad
    Dr. Shaw took the picture. Pretty amazing isn't it!
    Photo Dad
    It is nice. Is it Mt. Diablo?

    I guess the moon must have sunlight-balanced reflective surface

    If it was really made of green cheese, this image would have some green cast, right?
    Photo-John

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  9. #9
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    This is very interesting. I will have to give this a try one weekend when I'm out in the country.
    Sean Massey
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  10. #10
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    Re: Mt. Diablo?

    I don't know what mountain is in the picture, but I believe Dr. Shaw teaches at Montana State University in Bozeman, MT, so I suspect the pciture was taken in Montana.
    Photo Dad

  11. #11
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    Smile Re: Mt. Diablo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Dad
    I don't know what mountain is in the picture, but I believe Dr. Shaw teaches at Montana State University in Bozeman, MT, so I suspect the pciture was taken in Montana.
    Photo Dad
    Hi all,

    I'm glad you are finding this posting interesting. The photo is one I took just outside of Bozeman, Montana in summer 2005. The camera is pointing nominally northward, toward the Bridger Mountains. Right now I'm looking forward to skiing on the backside of the same mountain this weekend...

    If you want to see the original article referred to in Photo Dad's posting, it's in the November issue of Optics and Photonics News, published by the Optical Society of America. The title is "The digital blue sky at night" and it can be read online:
    http://www.osa-opn.org/abstract.cfm?URI=OPN-16-11-18

    We have a full moon this weekend, so give it a try.

    Cheers ...

    JShaw

  12. #12
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: Mt. Diablo?

    Quote Originally Posted by jshaw
    Hi all,

    I'm glad you are finding this posting interesting. The photo is one I took just outside of Bozeman, Montana in summer 2005. The camera is pointing nominally northward, toward the Bridger Mountains. Right now I'm looking forward to skiing on the backside of the same mountain this weekend...

    If you want to see the original article referred to in Photo Dad's posting, it's in the November issue of Optics and Photonics News, published by the Optical Society of America. The title is "The digital blue sky at night" and it can be read online:
    http://www.osa-opn.org/abstract.cfm?URI=OPN-16-11-18

    We have a full moon this weekend, so give it a try.

    Cheers ...

    JShaw
    I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but I was curious about one thing. What did you set as your white balance? Was it set to daylight?
    Sean Massey
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  13. #13
    Senior Member srobb's Avatar
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    Very interesting article and image, Dr. Shaw. And welcome and thanks for responding in this thread. This looks like something I would be quite interested in attempting. Still have some Ilford B/W in my camera so may see what it would look like in that. Full moon this weekend, huh?
    "No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit." --Ansel Adams

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  14. #14
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    Re: Mt. Diablo?

    Quote Originally Posted by masdog
    I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but I was curious about one thing. What did you set as your white balance? Was it set to daylight?
    I left the white balance set for daylight and it worked just fine. The night-sky color balance is essentially the same as daylight, there's just a lot less light! I did wonder at first if I would have to play with white balance settings, but so far I have not needed to.

  15. #15
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by srobb
    Very interesting article and image, Dr. Shaw. And welcome and thanks for responding in this thread. This looks like something I would be quite interested in attempting. Still have some Ilford B/W in my camera so may see what it would look like in that. Full moon this weekend, huh?
    Thank you for the welcome... I always enjoy visiting with others who love photography!
    It's an interesting idea to use B/W film. It should work fine, but I'd recommend bracketing pretty widely, especially adding longer exposures than my article recommends for digital photography. And, yes - full moon is Sunday, Feb. 12, on Lincoln's birthday. Good luck...!

  16. #16
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    I discovered this phenomenon a few years ago by accident. That accident is here: Fuji Reala, 24mm lens, 14 minute exposure at f2.8.



    Since that shot, I have taken several more under full moon, or nearly full moon conditions. This shot was taken on the California coastline, exposed for 14 minutes at f4 again on Reala:



    Shot #3 was shot on slide film, Velvia 50 to be exact. 15 mins at f 2.8:



    Remember, without moonlight you still get cool effects! And you can light up the foreground using other means. I used my car's headlights here:



    I don't think you can get good exposures using just starlight. Colors tend to get murky and to get a correct exposure you might have to expose all night.

    I recommend everyone try exposing for moonlight. Unlike the article says, you can obviously expose on film. In fact, I had never heard of someone taking exposures that long with a digital camera before this. Start at f4 for 14-15 mins at iso 100 with the full moon directly overhead and go from there. I'm sure you guys are sick of seeing all these pictures by now but it seemed relevant to the topic

    GL
    Rick
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  17. #17
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    Those photos are great examples. They show that you can do more than just prove nighttime pictures are possible. You can do art as well. Thanks for sharing them.
    Photo Dad

  18. #18
    Hardcore...Nikon Speed's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Apparently, Photography By Starlight IS Possible!

    I found this at Skyandtelescope.com.

    Check out the fourth photo.

    http://skyandtelescope.com/howto/ima...icle_159_5.asp
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  19. #19
    Hardcore...Nikon Speed's Avatar
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    Cool Astrophotography Films

    Great listing of good films to use for astrophotography.

    http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/I04/I04.HTM

    For those that may not realize what it means to "hyper" film, it was all the craze in the 80's and early 90's. In essense, you "soaked" your film in a vaporous gas to make it more sensitive to light. With the advent of better films in the 90's and then digital improving so much, the practice has more or less died off.

    Also, as a general rule, Kodak films are more sensitive in the red end of the spectrum while Fuji films are more sensitive in the blue end of the spectrum. Both companies have some "neutral" films. What your subject is should determine which film you use.
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  20. #20
    My name is Alex, not Eric ;)
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    Those are some awesome photos. I plan on giving this a try as soon as I get my D70s in a few weeks.

  21. #21
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently, Photography By Starlight IS Possible!

    Hmm.. I guess exposure by starlight IS possible! You learn something new every day! Thanks Speedo!
    Walter Rick Long
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  22. #22
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    Re: Nighttime Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    Unlike the article says, you can obviously expose on film. In fact, I had never heard of someone taking exposures that long with a digital camera before this. Start at f4 for 14-15 mins at iso 100 with the full moon directly overhead and go from there.
    GL
    Rick

    Just to clarify, my article does not say that you cannot expose with film. In fact, the opening statement refers to my 1996 article that talks exclusively about photographing the moonlit sky with film. What the article says is that slide film exposures end up being longer than the theoretical values because of reciprocity failure. Because of its enormously wide exposure latitude, print film captures the effect with almost any exposure, but removes much of the fine control that I like to have. So - yes, certainly you can do this with film (I've got hundreds of film shots of this effect from all over the world), but as the article says, be prepared to lengthen your slide exposure from the theoretical values listed in my table. Have fun ...

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