Finally, my first baseball of the season

[Homer]

Eventhough baseball has been going on for a month or so here the baseball park where I have complete access to has just started. Most of my baseball work is with parents hiring me to shoot their son / daugher playing baseball. So here are a few shots of my first game. This kid got up to bat twice but didn't swing one time, so no action shots of him batting.

Just a shot of him going to first after being walked.


He was a little upset after striking out and wasn't much for having his picture taken, so I just waited for him to peak from behind his glove.


Just a fun shot of him jumping while catching a throw to him.


Jim

[Old Timer]

Maybe not the greatest action but these are the kind of shots that parents treasure. Nice job as usual.

[swmdrayfan]

Love that bottom one, Jim.
BTW, if you don't mind my asking, what are you charging? Little League has just started up here, and I might be looking to try my luck with parents myself.

[Homer]

Thanks OT & John. Price is a touch subject, not for me, but when I tend to say how much I charge it usually opens a can or worms, oh well, nothing better than a can of worms.

When I'm hired to shoot a single kid during a game I charge $75 for the first hour and then $25 for each additional 1/2 hour. If I'm hired to shoot the whole team during a game then it's $25 per a parent / player with a minumum of $250. All of my pictures are given to the parent / team as digital files on a CD / DVD, depending on size.

I will say that I do this on the side, more for the enjoyment of shooting and excitement knowing that people are buying my work. I have a full time job that pays the bills, this just gets me the extra money to buy the equipment I want.

Thanks again for the comments.

Jim

[swmdrayfan]

Thanks OT & John. Price is a touch subject, not for me, but when I tend to say how much I charge it usually opens a can or worms, oh well, nothing better than a can of worms.

When I'm hired to shoot a single kid during a game I charge $75 for the first hour and then $25 for each additional 1/2 hour. If I'm hired to shoot the whole team during a game then it's $25 per a parent / player with a minumum of $250. All of my pictures are given to the parent / team as digital files on a CD / DVD, depending on size.

I will say that I do this on the side, more for the enjoyment of shooting and excitement knowing that people are buying my work. I have a full time job that pays the bills, this just gets me the extra money to buy the equipment I want.

Thanks again for the comments.

Jim

I'd say that's a fair price. If the parents had a problem with it, they'd say so, I'm sure. I don't think you'd get any argument about the quality, and as long as you're providing the service, then you should charge accordingly. Nice work.

[Homer]

Hey John, usually people take the other side of this saying I don't charge enough and they can't believe I give up the files, so that's what I meant about a can of worms. I just want everyone from the single parent soccer mom on a budget to the sports family with the Excursion to have the opportunity to get quality action shots of their child for an affordable price. Thanks again for the comment.

[livin4lax09]

i wouldnt give them full res files for that price, I would just give them low-res. I understand where you are coming from with wanting everyone to have good children photos, but undercutting pricing by that much doesn't do anyone in the business any good.

[Homer]

That's why everything is so expensive and the average person can't afford to hire a photographer, but instead has a family member with a camera take the shots. Not taking it wrong, I think what it comes down to is that we'll agree to disagree on pricing.

[JSPhoto]

Jim,

The problem I see isn't with the parents, but the working photographer who is trying to survive and keep his family fed, they are the ones who you would have a problem with, by undercutting them your taking from their business. Believe me, single parents, low income parents and so on hire pro photographers. I had a struggeling sngle mother hire me to shoot her daughter before a prom and she paid $250 on the spot for time and prints without a problem, meanwhile, her daughters boyfriends parents are well to do and didn't pay a penny. Needless to say they didn't get a single print either. If they want them they will pay the same rates as everyone else. When I was a track photographer I had a couple of women who bought every single print of their husbands that I had each week, spending as much as $100 a night, and some nights more than $200, and these people were not even close to making $20,000 a year but they bought pictures and put a race car on the track each night, and had kids to feed.

Another thing thats a potential problem is low res vs high res, even a half descent low res file can make a half descent 8x10. When you give a file you have no clue how many copies they will get made of these. Even if you give them a paper stating they can print 2 or 5 who's to say they won't get 10-20? Sports 4x6's go for between $3 and $15 each around here depending on the sport, and CD's where the photos cannot be printed go for $25-$75 while those you can print are from $50-$200. Again, it depends on the sport, and again when you undercut the working pro it's going to cause problems for them and thats not a pretty sight when they catch up with you.

I had one local "pro" (used loosly) come up to me at a game once and tell me I had to leave. He started such a scene that the game had to be stopped. He ended up being told to leave because he refused to to listen to anyone. He, without asking why I was there just assumed I was taking business away from him, and he refused to listen to the fact that I was there for the paper.

JS

[livin4lax09]

Everything is so expensive as far as hiring a photographer because of the ridiculously high prices we have to endure. Would photographer prices be nearly as high if 1d's were $100? no. But you have to understand there are people making a living doing this. If you undercut them so greatly, it makes it almost impossible for those kind of people to get jobs. There was just a whole article on strobist, and it's ruining jobs for people who depend on doing it to make money. Why would a family pay someone hundreds of dollars to do it when some amateur is offering it for free or a lot cheaper? all of a sudden, the pro is out of a job. The average person can't afford to hire a professional photographer, yes. So they take shots themselves. What's wrong with that? The average person can't afford a BMW roadster so they drive a ford. there's nothing wrong with that. everyone knows if you want a fast, nice car, a BMW is the way to go. but not many people feel the need to buy it. Same with photos. Everyone knows if you want quality photos, you can buy it. But some people don't. so they settle for their own photos. All I'm saying is that when you charge so little, you are not only robbing pros of business, but you are hurting yourself as well. You have to realize that there is a fine line between being nice and being taken advantage of. If you don't feel comfortable charging a ton, do some bartering. Many members on here have done just that. But I'm done. I'll just say it makes it very hard for people such as me who DON'T have another full time job on the side. When someone comes in saying oh ill take photos for free, or "I'll shoot an entire game for only 20 dollars." it basically puts me out of a job, and it's frustrating.

[Homer]

I'm just going to say I'm sorry, I should have thought it out before my fingers did the typing and bow out of this before I say something that I will regret. I disagree and just leave it at that.

Jim

[Beamer]

You know, I kinda have to stick up for Homer. No ill will intended to the professionals on this board, but if someone can't hire a professional, what's wrong with them hiring an amature?

It's true people who can't afford BMW's do buy Ford's or GMC's, but they don't ride a bike. They still have a car, it's just not BMW caliaber. While you guys maybe the BMW's of photography (something I respect), I think Homer is a Ford at this point (don't take that the wrong way, as I am something of guloppy at this point), but as such, he should be able to charge Ford prices. What would be a real shame, is you paid BMW money for a Ford or Chevy car.

Anyway, just my to cents, the Market is always changing, and I think if Homer so chooses to just attempt to cover his equipment, then I don't have a problem with it. I don't see BMW getting to upset with Dodge for the introduction of the NEON car, BMW knows the difference between the products, and understands that it's customers do to...sometimes it's best to agree to disagree and move on.

[JSPhoto]

There is one real problem with your thoughts here Beamer, and this comes from a person who considered himself a hobbyist in photography, not me. He said the moment he accepted money he was no longer an amature, but a professional, and thats how everyone I know of considers it as well. once you start accepting payment you are then considering yourself a professional and therefore must accept the fact that you have to act as a professional, and part of that is by not stepping on other pro's toes so to speak, this includes your pricing of photos and hourly & daily rates.
Some may consider a prefessional photographer as someone who has been published, but there are those who consider the above to be correct as well. My personal feeling is BOTH are correct. Someone who does nothing but portraits may never get get published, yet they are still a pro at what they are doing. Same goes with people who make a living at kids sports, they may never get published but they are making money at it.

Beginning pro's obviously can't charge the same as those in the business many years, but at the same time they can't undercut the longtime pro's either. There is a fine line and many times it will come down to the quality of the photos that determines who survives and who doesn't. That may mean that you have to upgrade your gear. As a beginning pro you have to account for that when starting out, and seriously undercutting the longtimers means it will take you longer to upgrade lenses and bodies. And what happens if your camera or lens dies at a job? Do you have backup gear? What happens when your strobe falls and hits someone, or you swing around and hit someone with your lens? Are you insured? What if your gear is stolen from your car while your in the gas station paying for your gas? (it happens!) These are all areas that the beginner doesn't consider until something happens and suddenly they are trying to cover their tracks. If I injure someone I am covered, if my gear is stolen or damaged I am covered, if my card crashes and I lose an events photos I am covered .... are you? Most likely not, and those costs as well as others are all considered in my photo prices and job rates, so are travel costs, time for post processing and host of other things are all considered when pricing photos and rates. I also have to consider things like car repairs, food, clothing, housing and so on. Now the part timer doesn't have to worry about the last things, that is a savings for them. They can then charge a bit less but not that much less. I charge a bit less because I have no rent to pay, or mortgage. I do however consider my property taxes, especially now as they will double or triple with the next bill.

Someone claiming it's a hobby but getting paid is still a pro, it doesn't mean they are making a living at it, but they must respect those who are by acting accordingly in their actions and that includes pricing and so on.
One final note, the IRS considers it a hobby as long as you don't earn over $400 in a year at your "hobby".

JS

[Beamer]

JS,

I respect your opinion and what you have to say, much like I respect everyones opinion on here. What you say makes sense to me. That said however, I wouldn't ever consider charging your rates for my work at this time. That's not to say the chance to make money on photographs dosen't present itself frequently. Just like what happened at the game I was at yesterday. I was only there trying to practice but a number of parents came up to me and flat out told me they will pay for shots of their kid.

I in no way felt confident enough in my ability to charge the price of a professional, at the same time I am not going to post process the pictures and go through the work of sending them to print for free....so, what do I do in your opinion JS?

Do I tell them to hire someone else? Do I tell them to contact their closest professional sports photographer? Do I tell them I am shooting without a card?

I ask these questions with no arrogance, and no malice....not even any sarcasium...which you know is rare for me....I am just wondering what you would do?

Thanks,

Beamer

[JSPhoto]

Beamer,
No problem.

As for what I did back when the time came was the following.

1: I considered the facts, of course it helped that I knew several pros and I talked to them about the business and the ups and downs, whats expected of me and all the business side of things.

2: I had to decide what to do, so I tried it out for a while and I struggled. I finally decided that just covering local racing wasn't going to cut it in the long run, I needed to do it year round. It was a 4 month trial period and I decided from that experience to go ahead at that point and start selling.

Before I sold my first photo though I knew the ins and outs of the business after basically hanging out for 4 months. In that four months I learned and when I went to the track owner I had enough good stuff to impress him and allow me to join as a track photographer, number 3 of 4 at that track. That fall I had enough experience there that I took a CD to the local paper and was told on the spot they could use me as a freelance stringer.

During that time 4 others had started the same way I did, and those 4 decided they couldn't deal with the pressure of being at tracks 4 or 5 days a week, sometimes more and haven't seen them since, or they didn't want to want to put in the time and money to do it.
The first year I shot with an Olympus C2100UZ and bought an FL 40 flash for it, around $1500. Then I had a choice, get new gear or give it up. Thats when I got the original 1D, sales jumped by 200% immediately, but it cost $6000 to take that plunge. Three years later I upgraded again, and that cost $8500.

Basically you have to decide what you want to do and where you want your photography to go. A lot of people find that when they shoot for someone else, say a parent or a paper, magazine or whatever that they loose control of their creativity, are you willing to risk that? If not then your choice is clear.
Shooting the kids games can be very profitable, it can also be very expensive and time consuming, the latter being why I don't do it unless a parent hires me. At the same time I won't go and shoot a game just to shoot it simply because I don't want parents coming to asking for photos. If I am shooting something and a parent wants copies I simply tell them I am being paid to shoot by someone else.
Before I began selling photos I simply said I am not allowed to sell here or "I'm just learning". Some would get upset, some understood, but everyone understood when I did start selling as the quality had improved 100% over what they saw previously and they glad they waited as they got a better photo.
I also didn't upset the pros, they infact urged me to go ahead and start selling when they saw the improvement, and one went as far as doing the post processing until I had the experience to do it myself.

I can't tell you what to do or how, I can just give you suggestions and opinions, from there you have to make your own choices. Both you and Homer have the right idea and are on the right track photo wise, I just think the quality needs to go up a bit and you need to learn the business side of things before jumping in and selling photos and in the long run it will make your lives a whole lot easier than it would if you run into some grouchy pro who thinks he owns the world. They are everywhere, and some are real jerks who would rather sue you than look at you. Some get loud and billigerent (sp?) and that kind of attention can hurt a struggeling beginner. I have met a few of those while I was learning, a couple I can safely say are now friends though

JS

[MonkeyWrench]

This is a tough nut to crack. The same could be said for shade tree mechanics and other talented individuals. I use to get abused for computer repair until I started charging. I think the same could be said for giving your photos away or selling cheap. People will come to expect it and abuse the privilege. Making it hard on yourself and local pros. However having said that while getting paid would qualify as Pro the real definition comes from the quality of work not what’s being paid. I think it would be unfair for a armature/pro to sell photos at PRO prices if the quality wasn't there. And what your saying is then don't sell pictures. You can look at the post in these forums and usually spot the pros. You get what you pay for. Having said that I have seen some quality post by listed armatures. Currently there are no Pros for hire in my area for small time sports. I am not saying they wouldn't do it but they mostly want studio and large events. When I am shooting my Son's track meets its me the local paper and a few parents with anything other than point and shoots. And to much of my amazement not many of those. So I see a need and a void in the community I live in. I am just practicing my craft and getting better with every shoot. In the mean time my Son's cool factor gets to go up when they share the photos with their friends. When I am more confident in my skills and have upgraded my equipment I may think about charging. Until then its all about fun and learning. BTW the numbers you guys are throwing around amaze me. I had no idea the fees were that high. As for not charging enough or giving photos away, you have to understand a beginner doesn't look at it the same way a PRO would. To a Pro it is their lively hood to the armature is just fun and possibly a cool way to make a few bucks. Rarely will the two sides ever agree.

[JSPhoto]

One thing you mention is very true, well two. One being if your giving photos away or charging too little it will bite you later when you do need to charge the higher prices. As for pros and amatures not agreeing, thats true to a point. I thought the same way you do, but I learned the lesson thanks to one guy who wanted to get into the business. He got escorted out of a track by the cops for selling one photo and got a citation for trespassing.

As for filling a void in your area, if it were me I'd keep all the photos for the first year, use them as a learning experiance, then next year sell the new stuff stuff. In the off season set something up with the league(s) to sell and give them 10 or 15%. Parents will be happoer too knowing some of the $$ goes back to the league. If parents ask this year for photos tell them your just learning and need to get some experience. Start talking to the leaders before the season ends so you can start making plans.
During the off season figure up what you need to make off each photo to cover your expenses. You can get prints made at WalMart cheaper than doing them yourself in most cases.
Back when I was doing the track pictures I was charging $3 ea for 4x6 3 for $7 and 8x10's were $12 ea and 3 for $28, prices have gone way up now with higher gas prices I don't bother with 4x6's (which aggravates some) and 7x10's are $20.... an 11x14 is $37.50 and 20x30 is $60 and those are average prices around here. Those selling 4x6's are getting $5 to $9 each. I was selling buttons for $4.50 and now most are around $9..

JS

[Beamer]

JS,

I see your points. Again, I don't think my work is worthy of selling at yet. However, I have been in the situations were I know it would be nice to have a picture of my loved one out their, and even if the quality isn't good I would still like a copy.

I have to admitt I have no problem giving people copies through e-mail of my pictures, but if they want really good shots, I am sure they will be smart enough to hire someone who has more experience, and better equipment.

Thanks for all your input.

Beamer