Getting a 580EX & so confused!

[JETA]

Here I was so proud of myself for wrapping my brain around my 1D just a bit......

My b-day was in Oct. and my gift is/was a flash. I just had to pick it out.

So I decided the 580EX is probably what I need. What is confusing to me is there is so much too it and tons of lingo I do not get yet.

Here is my questions. Do I need a turbo battery pack & cord? Also I ask another stupid question since I'm on a roll.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

If anyone has other flash suggestions I'm more then open to it. I'm not sure I'm even gonig down the right road. I'm so hands on. I've read and read and now I need to get so I can start playing to grasp it all.

[mjs1973]

Hey Jeta,

Welcome to the wonderfull (confusing) world of flash. I've had the 580EX for a few months now, and I have yet to spend the time practicing with it to figure out how to use it properly, but I can answer your first question for it. No, you don't need the battery pack and cord. The flash itself runs on 4 AA batteries. If you find yourself in situations where you need faster recycle times with your flash, the battery pack would help with that.

Does your 1D have a built in wireless trigger for the flash? If not, I would consider getting either the off shoe flash cord, or wireless transmitter for it. Of course, figuring out the flash is first on the list.

[JETA]

Learning more with every "click"

Michael, I love this!

I'm really not too bright. I have no clue if my 1D has a built in wireless trigger or not, but I'm thinkin' I doubt it? I'm off to go research shoe flash core and wireless transmitters later this afternoon.

Never in my wildest dreams did I think flash would be so complicated. Well, at least it is to me. lol

Thank you for your guidance!

[JSPhoto]

JETA,

Don't let the 580EX scare you, it's JUST a flash. I have shot three full football games with 1 set of batteries. So whether you get the battery pack or not isn't a big deal. The only advantage is you buy fewer batteries abd recycle times are a tad better, but it's one more thing to lug around.
As for how to use it, the simplest and easiest way is to set it ETTL II (it will just say ETTL) and then press the little lightning bolt button which will put it into fill flash mode....then shoot away. If you need to, which you shouldn't you can manually up or lower the flash output with the dial .

JS

[JTcooper]

Jeta, don't worry much. I love it so much I got two of those flash, one on each camera. go for it, its the best you can get and make sure let us know how you like it ehh...

[flowremix]

I'm eying to get the 580ex too. So this post caught my attention. Someone mentioned about wireless trigger...i was wondering if the 20D has a wireless trigger or would you have to get the transmitter? I rented one from Calumet, i loved playing with it. But it would want to try to shot off camera shots. thanks.

[JTcooper]

yes, you could either get the PW or the STe2 to trigger the 580. and also if you used the pocket wizar you might want to turn off the auto off on the flash it self, other wise you would have to run back and to flip the on/off button every minute.

[Glen A Ford]

jeta, you may be aware of some of this info, so ignore if you are. the 580 is as complex as they come with flash but it is a good flash gun, most of the features you may never need to use, but they are there for those who do.
a few things to note:
* the flash fires a pre-flash just before the main flash to check the light and it uses this reading to set the main flash. you barely notice the pre-flash. The system is very sensitive to white/black subjects and will under/over expose if you do not adjust. e.g. person in white shirt. i am always adjusting the flash exposure - mostly up - according to the subject (e.g. white clothing, etc..).
* also there is a flash exposure lock, which is useful if the background is really bright (e.g. window) - this feature sets the flash to ignore the background and acts like a spot exposure reading.
* i tend to use a diffuser on mine, to soften the direct flash.
most people find flash a very difficult one to understand, so don't feel to alone. have fun.

[JETA]

Thank you Glen. I am not aware of any of the things you wrote & appreciate the time you took to do so.

It scares me this thing is so complex. I'd just like to be able to point and shoot for things like the holidays and not worry......

Thanks again for the info Glen.

[Glen A Ford]

jeta, you're are welcome. this is what i do when using my canon flash:

when i am shooting indoors or the light is very low, then i set the camera to manual and pick a shutter speed of around 80 and an aperture of between 4 and 8, dependent upon the subject. if i want shallow depth of field or want to let in lots of ambient light, then i set the aperture to f4 or less. if it is a group of people, then i will use f8. the flash is in etl mode and i adjust the flash exposure compensation using buttons on the camera, if the subject is light (e.g. light coloured clothing) to say +2/3 stops. i also use a diffuser to soften the light, and the pictures normally come out fine.

outside, i normally work in av mode and set the aperture to suit but making sure the shutter speed is within the sync speed (125 or 250, depends on which camera i use). the flash is then firing as fill-in light. you can use FP mode (super flash), which will work at any shutter speed, but the flash power is much less, so i tend not to use.

if the background is really bright (person standing indoors in front of window) then i will use the flash exposure lock (FE), which is a button on the camera. this fires the pre-flash and the camera holds the exposure reading (from the subject) until i fire the shutter.

second curtain option is quite useful, although i rarely use. it sets the flash to fire at the end of the exposure rather than the beginning. this is useful if you are using a slow shutter speed and want to give a feeling of motion. it means the light trails will be behind the subject not in front.

note, if you set your camera to programme, it should work fine, but you will still need to adjust if the subject is light and the aperture will be fixed (you cannot vary). that is why i use manual. if you use av or tv mode indoors, then the camera will still be in fill-in mode even though the light levels are obviously too low for hand-held use, and the shutter speed is likely to be too slow and cause camera shake.

i have attached a few examples. picture inside is well exposed and a nice balance of flash - not too much, not too little. the second one is an example of fill-in flash outside on a very hot sunny day. probably too much flash, but far better than none (strong shadows). the third picture is an example of under-exposure. The white dress and light background caused the camera to reduce the flash level - i should have set +2/3 or even +1 stop flash exposure compensation when i took this, but forgot.

if you can get the hang of it, then you have bought a very good flash. best, Glen

[QuadJunkies]

YAY! JETA, Im soooo glad you posted this! Im a little nervous myself, and yet very excited to do my 1st indoor race with mine! Ill do my best to out all this to test next wk end and I too am confused by all the fancy "lingo" in the manual. I had to just STEP AWAY... lol

So I am assuming a rechargable battery is not reccomened on the flash,correct?
Also, should we use Lithuim assuming you get better life out of them than alkaline(sp?).

[Glen A Ford]

you'll get much better cycle times with rechargeable nimh than alkaline. always carry spares though, because when they lose power it is all of a sudden.

[QuadJunkies]

I bought a 10-pack and charger.

[QuadJunkies]

whats a good setting for the Flash on indoor Stadium racing?
I have used Shutter Priority mainly indoors and am using handheld.The areas I am in have very small space to get in with any type of Pod to be used

[Glen A Ford]

i don't do any of this, so here's my guess. I am guessing the light levels will be not so high, you will be using a longish telephoto lens and the distance from you and the action will be quite a lot.

You will need to make the best use of available light, use a high enough shutter speed to avoid camera shake and stop the action. The setting on the flash and the camera will need to ensure your flash power will cover the distance required. So here’s my suggestion. Apologies, the answer is a bit long.

i would set on manual or shutter priority. if there is a lot of ambient light then shutter priority will be okay if not then manual. here's the setting for manual: set the shutter speed to your flash sync (this is the speed at which the flash will be able to fire normally and you still get a picture). it will be 1/125th or maybe higher. check the manual.

use as high an iso rating as your camera will give good pictures - 400 or 800.

for aperture, use the lowest number your lens has (the largest aperture). Your camera is now set to let in as much available light as there is but maintaining the highest shutter speed you can get away with. if there is too much available light (check this with the camera) then use a smaller aperture or lower iso. In this case, probably best to use shutter priority mode and set the shutter to the sync speed.

for the flash make sure the zoom on the flash matches your focal length, as this will give you the best flash. It should do this automatically. the flash will only be able to reach a certain distance, but with the 580 this will be a long way (check your manual - it will have a table). Don’t use any diffusers (too much loss of light).

Here is some theory and also if you want to calculate without the table. all flashes have a maximum distance they can reach. this is determined by (1) the power of the flash (2) the zoom setting on the flash (3) the iso you use (4) and the aperture setting on the lens. Light falls off very quickly with distance. the distance doubles or halves for each two stop change in aperture or iso. shutter speed has no impact on flash as the duration of the flash is much, much shorter than the shutter speed. shutter speed is important for setting the amount of ambient light is let in. Each flash will have a “guide number” for each zoom setting, which you can use to calculate the working distance. Here is how it works on the 580….

for the 580 at the max zoom setting of 105mm the guide number is 190 feet. if you are using iso 400 then you can times this by 2 (two stops extra means double / half the distance) which makes it 380 feet. To get your working distance, then divide this by your aperture. so if it is an aperture of 4, then you are at 85 feet. which means the flash at max power will reach 85 feet. if less than 85 feet then the flash will just use less power. if you used iso 100, then the figure would be 47.5 feet at the same aperture and at max power. so you can see, the aperture has the most impact upon the max distance of your flash.

If you don’t like math, then just look at the screen on the back of the flash, this will indicate the distance for your camera / flash settings.

Using a telephoto lens with a wide aperture is the key for this type of photography, but they don’t come cheap. Hope this helps.

[QuadJunkies]

You are AWESOME! Thank you!
I got a migraine trying to understnad the manual,I was completly lost..Still am lol but not as bad now

I actually shoot for close up shots of riders,so I do zoom in for individual shots. Before I upgraded my lense, I was shooting ISO all the way to the highest it will go,4.5 and shutter Shutter speed was only at about 80 with a but I suspect it should be higher with the 2.8

I played with it today and had it set to Slave, I am totally clueless to a flash, I got lost on the having several Pre -set ups for distance??And of course, all that math.... Yup... I was lost alright!
lol

So Ill need to measure the flash each time I shoot the riders?They are fast moving objects, so there will be dif. distances
Ill see if I cant find a pic of the track and postit, but there is a ton of Flourescent lighting,yet its somewhat Dark,especially behind the rider.

[QuadJunkies]

this is an old pic off a Camcorder,so the pic itself is notgood.. But gives you an idea of the lighting


I like to do alot of shots like this :
I am sooo glad I finally will have a faster lense this wk end! Im about tired of Blur and alot of grain

This one was shot with as much sunlight that could beam into the building threw the doors and I still have alot of shadows and darkness


All the Haze from Exhaust fumes doesnt help matters either



JETA,hows your results so far?
I got some pretty good ones of my kids Quad rebuild, I cant believe how much a flash makes a difference!

[mwt]

I bought a 10-pack and charger.

what mah rating?

There is a wide spectrum of mah batteries out there

mike

[Glen A Ford]

flash is about as complex as photography gets, so if it seems hard work then don't feel alone - even pros can struggle when it comes to understanding flash.

your 2.8 lens v 4.5 will make a huge difference. you can control (down) the ambient light with the shutter speed, as is normally the case, but your flash will be able to cover much larger distances with a 2.8 aperture v 4.5. your max shutter speed will be your sync speed (check the manual it will tell you).

as for checking distance. there is no need to do this for every shot but just be aware that if your settings on your camera mean that your max flash distance is 50 feet and the subject is 150 feet then this will be why the picture will be bad - you can't overcome physics. so long as the working distance of camera to subject is within or close to the max distance, then you will be fine. if it is closer, then the camera will adjust down the flash power, so long as it is not too close. the screen on the back of the 580 will give you a guide.

shutter speed of 80 is low for what you are doing, i would use 125 or whatever your sync speed is. you will need this to avoid shake / blur.

the slave setting on the 580 is used when you have more than one flash. the camera allows you to fire other canon flashes using infrared. so if you had another 580 or a 430 then you could fire two (or more) flashes all at the same time. the other flashes are then set to slave mode and the main flash is set to master. it is good for studio work or for large indoor areas (not stadium) where you want lots of light fired from different locations.

[QuadJunkies]

what mah rating?

There is a wide spectrum of mah batteries out there

mike

I bought these AA batteries and charger. I have a freind who has them and he was pleased with them, AA NiMH 2700mAh Batteries

[QuadJunkies]

flash is about as complex as photography gets, so if it seems hard work then don't feel alone - even pros can struggle when it comes to understanding flash.

your 2.8 lens v 4.5 will make a huge difference. you can control (down) the ambient light with the shutter speed, as is normally the case, but your flash will be able to cover much larger distances with a 2.8 aperture v 4.5. your max shutter speed will be your sync speed (check the manual it will tell you).

as for checking distance. there is no need to do this for every shot but just be aware that if your settings on your camera mean that your max flash distance is 50 feet and the subject is 150 feet then this will be why the picture will be bad - you can't overcome physics. so long as the working distance of camera to subject is within or close to the max distance, then you will be fine. if it is closer, then the camera will adjust down the flash power, so long as it is not too close. the screen on the back of the 580 will give you a guide.

shutter speed of 80 is low for what you are doing, i would use 125 or whatever your sync speed is. you will need this to avoid shake / blur.

the slave setting on the 580 is used when you have more than one flash. the camera allows you to fire other canon flashes using infrared. so if you had another 580 or a 430 then you could fire two (or more) flashes all at the same time. the other flashes are then set to slave mode and the main flash is set to master. it is good for studio work or for large indoor areas (not stadium) where you want lots of light fired from different locations.

Well, I guess I have my settings wrong then.(imagine that!lol)
yes, my shutter will be highter this time around, I didnt have much choice beofre, thats why I invested in the lense very recently.
Ill read my manual again before the wk end and play around abit.
Your terminology has been most helpful ;)
Tina

[JSPhoto]

what mah rating?

There is a wide spectrum of mah batteries out there

mike

mah+ Milli amp hours

basically the higher the mah the longer the batter should operate, of course it depends on the current draw of the item being operated. Flash units are battery killers, in that the ciurcuts draw very quick bursts of power. Newer flashes such as the 580EX have much better power control circuits and get about double to triple the flashes.

JS

[mwt]

mah+ Milli amp hours

basically the higher the mah the longer the batter should operate, of course it depends on the current draw of the item being operated. Flash units are battery killers, in that the ciurcuts draw very quick bursts of power. Newer flashes such as the 580EX have much better power control circuits and get about double to triple the flashes.

JS

I knew that I was wondering what rating was purchased in the 10 pack.

My canon battery for my rebel xt is on 700mah . I purchased 1100 mah batteries for my grip and it is great having two 1100 mah hour batteries. Will more than last for a whole day or two of shooting with no worries.

Mike

[JSPhoto]

flash is about as complex as photography gets, so if it seems hard work then don't feel alone - even pros can struggle when it comes to understanding flash.
.

The reason people struggle is because they get a new item, whether it's a camera or a flash and they do not read the manual, but they will come on here and ask questions, normally after they didn't things right. I don't mind answering questions, but do get aggravated when when I find someone has never even opened the manual up. I find the same thing with pro's though.
There is nothing like shooting an event only to find the guy next to you can't get a descent shot because he didn't read his manuals, then asks you why he's having problems....no joke, it happens all the time. The worst part is that witrh pros it's often times the ones who have shot film for 30 years and then switch to digital and just don't get it. They make it much harder than what it is.

Now the 580EX
BTW, the sync speed on the 580EX is 250, BUT, it also has High Speed Sync, aka Fill Flash that works at any ISO and shutter speed. Not that all combinations will give desired results, but the flash will fire.
I have found in the good, well lit gyms an ISO of 800 and shutter of 350-400 f2.8 works well with the flash set to fill flash. For darker gyms change ISO to 1000 - 1250 and shutter 200-250 and flash on fill.
There is nothing better than practice, trial and error......after you read your manuals though.:thumbsup:

JS

[mwt]

don't mind answering questions, but do get aggravated when when I find someone has never even opened the manual up. I find the same thing with pro's though.

JS

Hopefully you are just venting because I read my manuals and frankly sometimes I get more confused and I ask questions here.

Mike