What is 'Copy' in file saving?

[OldClicker]

When using Save File As in CS4, there is the option (or often requirement???) to save the file as a 'Copy'. What is the difference? What conditions require it to be a 'Copy'? Why don't they show up in the Lightroom Catalog. - TF

[drg]

I answered part of this in the other post. The first part is was the file ever in or imported in to Lightroom to start with?

We'll get to part two after that!

[OldClicker]

The RAW is Imported with LR from the camera/reader into the 'date' folder (as I set it up to do) and into the Catalog.

I send a RAW file to CS4 (through ACR) to work on. I immediately Save As a PSD file. I do my layers, adjustments, etc. and Save As a different PSD. I then add my borders, resize, final sharpening, flatten the layers into one [EDIT: change Image>Mode to 8-bit] and do a Save As a jpg for posting. If I do not 'Flatten' the layers it requires a 'Copy'. Sometimes it requires a 'Copy' even if I do 'Flatten' the layers???

I go back into LR and the original RAW and both PSDs are in the Catalog. Often the jpg is not. It may be that it is not there only when it was a 'Copy'???

'Copy' does not seem to have anything to do with the same file name being used.

TF

[drg]

If I understand the problem, there is some variation in what happens even if you are doing the same exact sequence of using Photoshop CS4 as an external editor from Lightroom?

Probably it is not a difference but some small variation in what you are doing with a file.

1. Set Maximize PSD compatibility to ON to let LR recognize layered PSD files.
2. Be aware that Lightroom has more limited choices for Color Space options than does Photoshop and in various releases this may cause some anomalies, though usually in appearance as opposed to performance.
3. Be sure that your CS4 is running on the same version of ACR as LR.
4. Save the File, not a separate copy and you should return to Lightroom. No need to save a duplicate with everything turned on as you can step back through history and the original RAW in Lightroom is untouched. The beauty of non-destructive editing!
5. Why do you want the JPEG version to appear in Lightroom? You have both the untouched RAW and the PS-CS4 edited version that you will generate the JPEG from so why do you need the JPEG and a second copy of the PSD file?
6. You may want to Edit a Copy. You want Lightroom to make the copy, not Photoshop, to keep the database straight. If you do something at the file level in Photoshop CS4 it may not reflect correctly back to the Lightroom database.

I've searched some older posts and I have not found the one I think I'm looking for so I'll write up a more detailed step by step procedure to go back and forth between LR and an external Editor. Or if I find the post I want I'll link it in to this forum.

If I'm not on the 'right' question yet, let me know as there is some step or two in the procedure you are referring to that is missing or not needed.

[OldClicker]

I've done some more digging and can now reproduce the problem.

First - #5 “Why do you want the JPEG version to appear in Lightroom?” - I want everything in the catalog. For me that's what a catalog is for. If I have to use another program to see what images I really have, there isn't much reason for a catalog.

Copy= Saves the image in the file format specified but retains the image in CS4 in the current file format.

The problem is that it makes a Copy when doing a Save As whenever there is something in the current image that the file format (jpg in my case) does not support. Layers (when I forget to Flatten) is one and Alpha Channels is another. I know nothing about Alpha Channels, but if you Save a Selection (which I often do when selecting what I do and don't want sharpened and/or noise filtered) it is An Alpha Channel. This is what was forcing the Save As jpg file to be a Copy. [EDIT - I have not found a way to Delete a Saved Selection and get rid of the Alpha Channel.]

OK, now why would a standard Save As show up in LR and a Save As-Copy not???

TF

[drg]

OK, now why would a standard Save As show up in LR and a Save As-Copy not???

TF

The simple answer is that the Copy hasn't been entered into the Lightroom database as it wasn't created by, or imported to LR. It is an action that occurs outside of LR.

Originally you had to 'Save' a copy of a file in Photoshop the first thing. Before you made any changes. Now, a PSD file is automatically created from the information sent by LR to PS via a blind *.xmp file. So there is already 'a copy'.

You can still Save (with full functionality turned on in both programs) and you will get the filename+ (little different in each CS2,3,4) 'copy' appended to it. As long as you haven't made any changes in Photoshop. That's because it has already created a physical file.

Save-As forces another copy of the full PSD file to be created. Just be sure you know where it is for maintenance if you don't return to Lightroom!

Both Lightroom and Photoshop may handle non-RAW files differently than RAWs because of the presence of Camera RAW. Tags and metadata can force a non-RAW file to get looked at by ACR if different programs don't agree on file handling!! This part of the reason I asked why you are saving JPEGS. After all, either LR or PS can generate a jpeg at any time, and LR can always show you a 'jpeg' version virtually without the actual file taking up disk space or being frozen in a specific version.

Check your right click options (and if you have a Mac, get thee a right click mouse!!) to see what 'else' you can do from LR.

There are a bunch of questions floating around that indicate some clarification about the interaction of LR and Photoshop is needed. I am thinking about how to do this the best way.

The Photoshop - do x,y, and z approach - doesn't always work well with LR when it comes to some of these topics. The reason is, you have to set up your workflow one time, and then it is one step and there's little or no need to mess around with all the particulars of file types and locations as it is handled via mostly the Metadata in Lightroom. Lightroom looks at groups or collections of images where Photoshop is built for optimizing 'one' image.

Some of the 'better' third party books on the market were written with a very specific version/build of both LR and PS available and there have been many many changes. I've also harped on the fact that some of the books were just wrong from the start.

You may need to download all the NOTES from ADOBE and ADOBE Labs forums to find that one little piece that is new or the sequence of changes to establish an efficient workflow.

[OldClicker]

I now understand why I do not need to Save a PSD as soon as I open the file in Photoshop and have quit doing so.

Maybe my actions would be clearer knowing that I have no need for working on groups of photos. I use Lightroom mainly as a catalog and also for preliminary, non-permanent adjustments. (I actually prefer the Catalog in Elements, but it is sooo sloooooowwwwww.) I save jpg files because 90% of what I do ends up uploaded here on PhotographyReview as a jpg.

TF