Moderators...

[adina]

Are we going to see any images from you guys?

[Asylum Steve]

adina,

The mods have been in discussion lately about how we're going to guide this forum, and hopefully dissuade folks from simply posting shots with the obligitory "is it art?" , or "what do you think?" tag.

Part of that will include us posting some of our own work, but we don't want to do that without having a meaningful discussion to go along with it, and that takes a bit of time and thought to work out, both of which (for me anyway) are in short supply right now.

I know Megan is chomping at the bit (so to speak, heh heh), so perhaps you'll see some stuff from her soon...

Are we going to see any images from you guys?

[Irakly Shanidze]

soon soon soon
let me finish preparing for two upcoming shows

[shesells]

Maybe it could start with just giving suggestions on the work that people do post. This forum is kind of dead. I thought we were going to be discussing the pieces that people post and that the moderators would lead the discussions. so far, it doesnt feel anything like the excitement there was before it was opened. It seems like we have to judge our own pieces by seeing if they are commented on or not. If not.. well, I guess its not art or not good art or sucks. It would be nice to hear things like " Have you thought of doing this, or this" or give some kind of assignment to the person who needs to see a point. Something like "While that's attractive, you could have seen that scene in a more creative way, so can you take it again and ignore what the scene is. Just find one thing in the scene that you can express in your own special way".

I can think of tons of things like that I would like to say to spur someone on to do better, but I don't have the clout. You guys do, thats why we can learn from you. I don't pretend to know what it's like to moderator but if this is going downhill, we better all do somehthing to fix it. I'll be glad to help in any way. All of us have the job of telling the truth, in a kind way of course, Then saying what we have learned that may push others to advance. We have all learned different things about art and we can share them. There is no right or wrong, and I think that idea has stifled this forum. Some have had formal schooling, some are born artistic, so we can all contribute, not just hold out someone as the ultimate source on the matter. The thing is, someone has to lead. So how bout it? You can start on my recent pic. lol.. I, and everyone else on this forum want to get better and better, so please, if you know something I don't know, please tell me.My hope is that this forum can become exactly like Steves "hello" thread. Exactly!
Thanks,
Kit

[Trevor Ash]

Maybe it could start with just giving suggestions on the work that people do post. This forum is kind of dead. I thought we were going to be discussing the pieces that people post and that the moderators would lead the discussions. so far, it doesnt feel anything like the excitement there was before it was opened. It seems like we have to judge our own pieces by seeing if they are commented on or not. If not.. well, I guess its not art or not good art or sucks. It would be nice to hear things like " Have you thought of doing this, or this" or give some kind of assignment to the person who needs to see a point. Something like "While that's attractive, you could have seen that scene in a more creative way, so can you take it again and ignore what the scene is. Just find one thing in the scene that you can express in your own special way".

I can think of tons of things like that I would like to say to spur someone on to do better, but I don't have the clout. You guys do, thats why we can learn from you. I don't pretend to know what it's like to moderator but if this is going downhill, we better all do somehthing to fix it. I'll be glad to help in any way. All of us have the job of telling the truth, in a kind way of course, Then saying what we have learned that may push others to advance. We have all learned different things about art and we can share them. There is no right or wrong, and I think that idea has stifled this forum. Some have had formal schooling, some are born artistic, so we can all contribute, not just hold out someone as the ultimate source on the matter. The thing is, someone has to lead. So how bout it? You can start on my recent pic. lol.. I, and everyone else on this forum want to get better and better, so please, if you know something I don't know, please tell me.
Thanks,
Kit

Speaking only for myself....

I don't see how we can expect the moderators to lead critique discussions. That's just too much work and energy. And I don't think this forum was meant to critique artwork, but I think that's just what it is becoming.

For me, it's a LOT of work to take the time to figure out how to tell someone in a nice way that I don't like their photo. I start by trying to find something nice to say about it so that they'll read the whole critique. Then I follow that by saying the things I don't like about it.....worded as nicely as possible....and then I finish it up with another "good job" just so I ensure that the time I took to write the whole critique isn;t wasted to the photographer choosing to ignore the bad stuff because they got defensive.

I can do this on a couple of photos but eventually it's just too much work. I'm sure the moderators would be more compassionate that I am but I would also think it would take even more energy to think about and then articulate a good response.

Maybe I'm just biased as I've mostly given up provding real critiques a long time ago. Does that make me shallow? It probably does.

I wonder how many other people feel close to the way I do?

[shesells]

Speaking only for myself....

I don't see how we can expect the moderators to lead critique discussions. That's just too much work and energy. And I don't think this forum was meant to critique artwork, but I think that's just what it is becoming.

For me, it's a LOT of work to take the time to figure out how to tell someone in a nice way that I don't like their photo. I start by trying to find something nice to say about it so that they'll read the whole critique. Then I follow that by saying the things I don't like about it.....worded as nicely as possible....and then I finish it up with another "good job" just so I ensure that the time I took to write the whole critique isn;t wasted to the photographer choosing to ignore the bad stuff because they got defensive.

I can do this on a couple of photos but eventually it's just too much work. I'm sure the moderators would be more compassionate that I am but I would also think it would take even more energy to think about and then articulate a good response.

Maybe I'm just biased as I've mostly given up provding real critiques a long time ago. Does that make me shallow? It probably does.

I wonder how many other people feel close to the way I do?

Trevor, thanks for replying. And Yes i do feel like you. I don't expect the moderators to do all the work, but just get the ball rolling. Otherwise, why would you take that job? Anyone posting here has to be willing to learn. That will cut out half the work.

First of all, our critique cannot be critiqued. Second, every post has to be critiqued.If not, , then what is the whole point? We can all share the burden, then it won't be a burden. All I ask is just dont have people posting and it just slides down to the bottom of the page without any input. It really doesn't matter whether we like a photo or not, but if we can see something in it we should mention it and if we see what it lacks we should tell. Basically, when I post, what I'm saying is "please tell me what is missing or what could make it better". Yeah, once in a while its nice to hear that someone loves it, but even when they do, I still start thinking how I can do it even better. Thats what we all want. To do better. We need others input for that. Thats why we read books. Well, maybe we have learned something we want to share. One person may already know it but maybe someone else reading it wil think "hey, i never thought of that". If everyone contributed, then the work wouldnt fall on a few.

The thing about this forum that can be different than say "photo critique" is that we push each other to go past that perfect photograph. It's hard to think creatively for some people. We can inspire them , and ourselves at the same time to do that.
Kit

[adina]

I think the moderators are here to make sure things don't get out of hand. Like some religon or political discussions on Viewfinder, or when someone posts a nasty critique, or something of the like.

Also, if you want a critique, I would think the critique forum is the place for that. I was under the impression that this would be more of a discussion kind of forum. Sort of like the Viewfinder, but with an alternative view on photography. And I don't expect the moderators to lead things.

But I do know that Steve, Irakly, and Megan are all very talented photographers, and I do enjoy viewing their work. Which is why I asked.

So, now that I've gotten my response, I'm going to wait patiently.

adian

[shesells]

I was under the impression that this would be more of a discussion kind of forum. Sort of like the Viewfinder, but with an alternative view on photography. And I don't expect the moderators to lead things.
adian

That's just the point Adina, you have one impression. I have another, everyone hast their own impresson of what this forum is. No one knows what to do! It's obvious by the constant guessing that is going on and the non participation. Someone has to make it clear what to do in this forum or it wil fizzle. Who do you think should do that?
Kit

[Asylum Steve]

My thanks, too, trevor. You hit the nail on the head...

First of all, my view (and I think shared somewhat by the other mods) is that moderators should try to remain in the BACKGROUND as much as possible, and not "lead" discussions by any means.

Granted, this new forum was specifically planned to be different to the other ones, and with that in mind I, Irakly, and Megan fully expect to take a more active role in things, but like I said, the plan is a long term one, and for the time being we're just trying to get comfortable and figure out a strategy (think the three-headed giant in Monty Python's Holy Grail)...

Now Kit, I think a misconception that you, and perhaps others have is the posting pics thing. This forum is in NO WAY supposed to be a "thumbs up or down" evaluation of someone's work. Simply posting a pic and asking for opinions is the wrong way to participate here, and in time we will be correcting those that do that.

While of course, it IS perfectly acceptable to link to an image to begin a thead here, the burden is on the CREATOR to also give as much background info (such as motivation or emotional states or intent) as possible, as well as start a specific discussion that is much deeper than only asking for others opinions.

That is what I have found frustrating so far. I could post one of my images and talk for hours about it: what it means to me, how I visualized the shot, how I treated it to change it into a more meaningful expression for me, how it fits in with a series of other images I may have, or even its place within the entire body of my work.

Unfortunately, no one else seems to want to do that...

I realize that talking about one's work this way may not come naturally to a lot of members here, and trust me, we WILL post some guidelines soon and follow that up by interacting with folks to help create the "sense of direction" that I know you all want from this forum.

I promise, scout's honor... ;)

[shesells]

That is what I have found frustrating so far. I could post one of my images and talk for hours about it: what it means to me, how I visualized the shot, how I treated it to change it into a more meaningful expression for me, how it fits in with a series of other images I may have, or even its place within the entire body of my work.

Unfortunately, no one else seems to want to do that...

I realize that talking about one's work this way may not come naturally to a lot of members here, and trust me, we WILL post some guidelines soon and follow that up by interacting with folks to help create the "sense of direction" that I know you all want from this forum.

I promise, scout's honor... ;)

Excellent Steve! You already started. I don't think that people didnt want to do that, they just didnt know by the directions so far to do that. Geez, thats wonderful. So we discuss our ideas openly about our work and explain why we did what we did. Great idea. Thank you so much and please know that I am in no way criticising anyone, just asking for that knowledge so this forum can get up and running.
Call me a sucker, but I always beleive "scouts honor".

[darkman]

For me, it's a LOT of work to take the time to figure out how to tell someone in a nice way that I don't like their photo. I start by trying to find something nice to say about it so that they'll read the whole critique. Then I follow that by saying the things I don't like about it.....worded as nicely as possible....and then I finish it up with another "good job" just so I ensure that the time I took to write the whole critique isn;t wasted to the photographer choosing to ignore the bad stuff because they got defensive.

I wonder how many other people feel close to the way I do?

I do feel very close to what you're saying. It's takes effort to constructively critique any photo. Be it good or bad (OK, very few are really bad). Thus, I find I'll often wait a day before commenting. To add to this, there is always going to be a clik. This click will (almost) always say "good job" etc. to each other. Plus, quite often they're a click because they like the same styles.

Plus, as art, it will be subjective. Almost every persons collection I've seen has stuff I really like and stuff I really don't like. Even our moderators sites.

And, while I'm probably sounding like a broken record. What is art or arty anyway? I do get the feeling that certain types of shots aren't "arty" by some peoples definition. Yet, the same shot with enough PS is an arty shot? Which leads even further into is this a "photography as art" or "art as art" thread? I do enjoy both, just as I enjoy paintings and sculptures. But I do draw a distinct line between the two.

As far as critiques, as long as it sticks to the photo at hand and not the person, I'm fine with whatever said.

[darkman]

That is what I have found frustrating so far. I could post one of my images and talk for hours about it: what it means to me, how I visualized the shot, how I treated it to change it into a more meaningful expression for me, how it fits in with a series of other images I may have, or even its place within the entire body of my work.

Unfortunately, no one else seems to want to do that...

I realize that talking about one's work this way may not come naturally to a lot of members here, and trust me, we WILL post some guidelines soon and follow that up by interacting with folks to help create the "sense of direction" that I know you all want from this forum.

I promise, scout's honor... ;)

OK Steve, I'm going to go to my post and do just that

Too bad I went to lunch before hitting the return button on my reply to trevor, sorry guys,

Mike

[opus]

Steve, I did what you said on my very first post here. I wrote and wrote and wrote about what it meant to me.

It seemed to be a thread killer. Seems I said everything there was to say about my own shot.

[Asylum Steve]

...perhaps there's a middle ground.

I'm not saying we have to write a page long synopsis to go with every pic we post, but maybe a general or specific theme for discussion or direction. You know, something a bit more than just asking for a critique.

Kelly, I think you discovered that saying too much too soon has the potential to kill the discussion, maybe because folks are afraid to sound like they're contradicting you, or that they can't think of anything to add. So, next time try giving a little less information, and then ask a few questions that might encourage a response.

Believe me, none of the mods are blaming any of you guys for ANYTHING you've posted or written (or not written). We're just saying that you need to be patient for the forum to establish a more clear direction...

I mean, everybody realizes that Irakly's first post was only TWO WEEKS ago, right? If this were the formation of the universe, we'd still be hearing the echo of the Big Bang...

[megan]

Maybe it could start with just giving suggestions on the work that people do post. This forum is kind of dead. I thought we were going to be discussing the pieces that people post and that the moderators would lead the discussions. so far, it doesnt feel anything like the excitement there was before it was opened. It seems like we have to judge our own pieces by seeing if they are commented on or not. If not.. well, I guess its not art or not good art or sucks. It would be nice to hear things like " Have you thought of doing this, or this"

\Well, the argument against that is we'd be duplicating the critique forum. Which is not what we want to do. I don't tihnk tihs forum is *dead* though - it's just finding it's place.

or give some kind of assignment to the person who needs to see a point. Something like "While that's attractive, you could have seen that scene in a more creative way, so can you take it again and ignore what the scene is. Just find one thing in the scene that you can express in your own special way".

Interesting thought. I don't want to take the place of a class though - I'm not paid to do this :P Seriously, though - good suggestion.

I can think of tons of things like that I would like to say to spur someone on to do better, but I don't have the clout. You guys do, thats why we can learn from you. I don't pretend to know what it's like to moderator but if this is going downhill, we better all do somehthing to fix it.

I don't think it's going downhill. We're still just trying to let it find it's way - get into a groove, so to speak.

Some have had formal schooling, some are born artistic, so we can all contribute, not just hold out someone as the ultimate source on the matter. The thing is, someone has to lead. So how bout it?
Kit

Sorry you don't think we're leading enough. I have limited access, I'm doing my best I thought our job was to moderate, though, not lead. Maybe there's a misunderstanding of what's expected of us? I've actually put up a few responses of moderate length, trying to steer and generate discussions, but no one responded to them. (shrugs) I'll keep doing it, but it's not just the moderators that make the forum.

Megan

[shesells]

Megan, I just wanted to voice my concerns, because I
felt that posts and replies in this forum were lacking. Since Steve
posted his reply yesterday, I have a better grasp of what direction the
forum should be going, and feel much better about the
forum, My questions were answered. The good thing is
that now its posted here for others to get a sense of
"direction" to go with as well. It also seems to me
that people are posting differently since this thread,
(I know I am.)
Steve made things a lot more clear yesterday and look
at the difference today! I love his ideas and the one you
posted today is excellent..
This Forum can be made exciting and inspiring if we all
take part.
Kit