Photoshop and Windows PIcture and Fax Viewer

[Mando327]

Hello guys,

I have the Canon 20D, and when i adjust the color balance in Photoshop and then see the same picture in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer (WPFV), after saving the changes, on WPFV, the images have a reddish tint to them. I open first in photoshop and then at WPFV and compare them side by side, and it appears reddish on WPFV. Why is this? I have Windows XP and Photoshop 7.0.
I also noticed that when i open the file in photoshop and click on color settings and switch between sRGB and RGB, the RGB setting looks kinda reddish like when i see it on WPFV. I had the impression that Windows operated with sRGB? I don't mind making the images RGB on photoshop i guess, but I'm under the impression that a lot, if not most photo printers (proffesional ones) operated under sRGB. I originally shot the images in sRGB. What do you guys usually shoot your pictures in, sRGB, or RGB? Do photo labs print in RGB?
Another weird "phenomenon" is when i open the images on Windonw's Paint, and save a duplicate, the picture looks the same on Paint, WPFV, AND Photoshop. Why? Hope i didn't loose anyone :-)

Thanks,

Armando

[Michael Fanelli]

Hello guys,

I have the Canon 20D, and when i adjust the color balance in Photoshop and then see the same picture in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer (WPFV), after saving the changes, on WPFV, the images have a reddish tint to them. I open first in photoshop and then at WPFV and compare them side by side, and it appears reddish on WPFV. Why is this? I have Windows XP and Photoshop 7.0.
I also noticed that when i open the file in photoshop and click on color settings and switch between sRGB and RGB, the RGB setting looks kinda reddish like when i see it on WPFV. I had the impression that Windows operated with sRGB? I don't mind making the images RGB on photoshop i guess, but I'm under the impression that a lot, if not most photo printers (proffesional ones) operated under sRGB. I originally shot the images in sRGB. What do you guys usually shoot your pictures in, sRGB, or RGB? Do photo labs print in RGB?
Another weird "phenomenon" is when i open the images on Windonw's Paint, and save a duplicate, the picture looks the same on Paint, WPFV, AND Photoshop. Why? Hope i didn't loose anyone :-)

Each piece of software renders colors differently. Different imaging programs, different browsers, different viewers, etc. all do their own thing. Color managment is needed to sort it all out. Some applications use color management, others do not. Worse yet, even if you have strict color management in place, that doesn't mean that the person viewing your image has color management. You never really know what anyone is going to see.

I don't know what windows uses as a default color profile. But the color profile should be matched to the output device. The sRGB profiles are good for on-screen viewing. I am pretty sure that my digital rebel uses sRGB. Other aplictions, such as high quality printers might require RGB or maybe even CMYK (ink primaries + black). Some graphic artists I knew used to swear by LAB. You have to choose what you like best and what works for you.

Hopefully, someone else here can provide more specifics but this should get you headed in the right direction.

[Trevor Ash]

This is a complicated subject. Your questions don't have generic or easy answers. I'll try and cover them quickly:

I have the Canon 20D, and when i adjust the color balance in Photoshop and then see the same picture in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer (WPFV), after saving the changes, on WPFV, the images have a reddish tint to them. I open first in photoshop and then at WPFV and compare them side by side, and it appears reddish on WPFV. Why is this?

This is because WPFV isn't using the ICM (Image Color Management) provided by the operating system but Photoshop does. As a result, the color information is interpreted differently in each program. The difference in interpretation of the colors is the reason for the reddish tint.

I also noticed that when i open the file in photoshop and click on color settings and switch between sRGB and RGB, the RGB setting looks kinda reddish like when i see it on WPFV. I had the impression that Windows operated with sRGB?

Windows itself doesn't "operate" under any specific color gamut (sRGB is a color gamut). Only applications that understand how to use the ICM use this information. When not using a color profile the application has to make an assumption about how to interpret the colors. I have to admit I don't quite understand what goes on when no profile is involed (it's probably application dependent) but I can say that it ends up appearing identical in color to sRGB. That's why when switching between aRGB and sRGB it looks similar when set to sRGB.

I don't mind making the images RGB on photoshop i guess, but I'm under the impression that a lot, if not most photo printers (proffesional ones) operated under sRGB.

You need to ask the lab or manufacturer what it uses because they don't all use the same. As for what the most popular is, I hear conflicting stories all the time so I don't trust either argument.

I originally shot the images in sRGB. What do you guys usually shoot your pictures in, sRGB, or RGB?

There are many arguments for which is better to "shoot" in. In the end, what matters and makes the choice for you is your overall workflow from photo to final result whether it be for print, screen, or something completely different. For example, some people take images straight to a printer from the camera where the printer doesn't support aRGB and the colors would end up looking bland if they shot in aRGB. Another example is that some people like to shoot in aRGB because it is a "wider" color gamut than sRGB but then later convert the image back to sRGB for web display anyway. What you'll need to learn about your question is what gamuts are, how they're different, and which is best to use under what circumstances. Then you can make your decision.

Do photo labs print in RGB?

Ask them, not us. We don't work at the photo labs.

Another weird "phenomenon" is when i open the images on Windonw's Paint, and save a duplicate, the picture looks the same on Paint, WPFV, AND Photoshop. Why?

This is expected. When the image was opened in WP it had the aRGB profile embedded into it. But when you saved the image that second time the profile dissapeared because WP doesn't know how to deal with it. Since no profile was emdedded in that second image, Photoshop had to make an assumption about which profile to use. Photoshop assumed that it needed to be sRGB and NOT aRGB (See earlier question explaining that sRGB looks identical to having no embedded profile). FYI, Photoshop can be configured to operate differently when it opens an image with no profile. For example, you could configure PS to ask you what you want it to do instead of automatically assuming sRGB.

Hope i didn't loose anyone :-)

This is a very complicated subject that's hard to understand. I hope this helps you a little. As for recomendations...I recommend to the average (non techy) photographer that they setup their camera's to shoot in sRGB and then I have them configure Photoshop's working color space to sRGB. By doing that, the images will always do what they expect and they don't have to understand all the complexities of color conversions. I recommend the same for you for the time being. You will find the sRGB gamut most acceptable for your needs. Most of the highly saturated colors you can get from the aRGB gamut won't make it to web viewing or printing anyway. There are still persuading arguments for using aRGB during the entire process where possible but it just complicates things.

Good luck.

[jbarber]

I was doing a search on "color gamut" and "digital camera" because I had some workflow issues regarding sRGB and web publishing. Maybe this link from Microsoft will help color spaces I was having problems with clients seeing the wrong colors and saturations when soft proofing photos I have retouched for them and giving them a preview in their email. This explanation helped as the vast majority of clients are using Windows and a gamma of 2.2 whereas I use a Mac with gamma of 1.8. Furthermore I prefer to work in Adobes RGB 1998 color space as it has a wider gamut.