New Guidelines...

[Chunk]

What I am not new at is giving my opinion in matters that I am well versed in, photography not being one of them, which makes it impossible for me to give an educated opinion about someone else's work. Sure I can tell you if I like it or not but that doesn't necessarily add value to this sort of forum.......

Don't worry about that 'educated' opinion. What is important is an HONEST opinion. I want that from you because it is hard to get that from family and friends around home. If you tell me that you like or dislike a shot and try to figure out why and explain that, we will both be learning. Since you are posting pictures, asking and comunnicating with us, we'll understand that you may not have as much experience as some others. I can usually see an amazing amout of improvement over the first few months of active participation and since the new person knows what advice has helped him/her the most, he/she can pass that along to others, even to old fogeys who might need to be reminded of basic stuff once in a while.
There are only a few people who think that only an 'educated' opinion is worth while and even fewer who would be rude enough to mention it. Keep posting and joining in.

[Chunk]

Payn, I hope that my comments weren't what you think are trying to push you aside.

You bring up some good points for discussion. I don't usually critique something if the point I would make has already been made. Sometimes I will though, if there are opposing opinions on some aspect so that the poster may get some idea of which my be more widely held.

I withhold comments on portraits often because I am not a good shooter of people although sometimes I see something about some aspect of the shot that hasn't been remarked upon by someone else and then jump in.

I hope you read my answer to AnthonyB. I think much of that speaks to your post. My opinion is that you are contributing strongly to the forum and I hope you continue to do so.

[payn817]

I just think some of the ideas here are really not well suited for newer photogs. That response should have been worded differently, certainly there are other newer people who will feel the same. It wasn't really all about me, but some issues I see could make others feel uncomfortable.

[gahspidy]

Payn, I am a bit puzzled by your feelings. I think Chunk said it well when he responded to AnthonyB. An honest feedback as to whether something works for you or not, and back it up with why, is very helpful to all parties concerned. This forum is very newbie friendly. I started here, like you, about two years ago and having no formal training or background in photography whatsoever, i have found myself improving alot since then all from the help and feedback from this board. I have seen your work improve at an impressive pace since I remember you first joining here, and lately I have been quite impressed with what you have been doing. I also value your critique and feedback because I respect what i have seen you do yourself behind the camera. Nuff said. . .I hope you continue to stick around, you are a valuable contributor to this forum.

[payn817]

Gary, I think this frum is very newbie friendly. However, this thread seemed some were suggesting it not stay that way. As in my reply to Chunk, most of my reply was a general statement, and the use of *I* was certainly a mistake.

For the record, I am very satisfied with my progression, and it is ALL due to the people on this forum.

My original response has been edited, it should make more sense now. I was tired when that was posted. It wasn't supposed to be a pity party thing. LOL

[Ronnoco]

[QUOTE=gahspidy btw, you remind me of a few members we had here from a while back named JoeD, and Elysian. Both from Canada and both offered fiery comments but never posted any of their own work. Any relation?[/QUOTE]

Well, of course, since Canada is such a "small" country and needless to say we all live in igloos, and according to one American politician we are all a bunch of sex-crazed liberals, it therefore follows logically that we all must be related to each other.

I think your "credentials" and level of logic are showing as well as your shoot the messenger attitude.

Ronnoco

[mtbbrian]

I want it to be known that no one is going to be pushed aside here. One thing John and I strive for here, is the belief that everyone, regardless of experience, has something to say and that everyone is or at least has potential to be a good photographer.

The hard part is getting the more experienced people to comment on the newer people and to get the newer people to comment on other people's work and for them not to take comments on their work too personally.

I really think that in order to have some credibility here, you need to post work of your own and then comment on others. This whole "critique thing" is a relationship. There a lot of you out there, whose opinion matters a lot to me, and I hope that some of you feel the same about me. It is because we have a relationship through photography..

These guidelines that John and I have presented are a combination of where we feel the community is and where we'd like to see it go. We are very much open to changing them if they are not consistent with where the community is.
Brian

[mtbbrian]

Well, of course, since Canada is such a "small" country and needless to say we all live in igloos, and according to one American politician we are all a bunch of sex-crazed liberals, it therefore follows logically that we all must be related to each other.

I think your "credentials" and level of logic are showing as well as your shoot the messenger attitude.

Ronnoco

We don't need to get personal here. All Gary was doing was pointing out a couple of things that have happened here in the past.
Brian

[payn817]

Brian, the issue was not with the guidelines, but with some suggestions. The guidelines look good. As stated before, I would limit the daily submissions to even less.

Again, if you are going to critique you should post some work too. However, you shouldn't necessarily dismiss a critique because you are not a "fan" of another.

[walterick]

These guidelines that John and I have presented are a combination of where we feel the community is and where we'd like to see it go. We are very much open to changing them if they are not consistent with where the community is.
Brian

Brian, could you comment further on where you and John would like to see the critique forum go? Perhaps then we can dialogue as a group on how best to get there.

...

I am a bit torn on the topic of critiquers posting their own work. There is a member of this board that does not post his own stuff very often (or at all) but his critique is valuable to me because it is experienced, honest and direct. Maybe I would be disgusted if I saw his work. But in the meantime he really makes direct points about my work and I appreciate that. I find the well-thought-out critiques here sometimes lacking, so I truly appreciate them when they do come along.

I also am the type of photographer who still needs to have sunshine blown up my a__. So the "oh, how beautiful!" comments really mean a lot to me too. It means that someone finds this picture very appealing and maybe they can't explain why. But that emotional "!" is very important to me. So if there are photographers out there who are afraid to comment because they don't have anything "real" to say, I want your comments too! I'd rather have 5 simple responses than none at all. At least then I know where I stand!

Let me also say that I really appreciate what Brian and John and all the other mods here do. I don't want this to thread to become a member-bashing thread. I love you guys and this site. I hope that we all remember that's why we're having this thread, is to help improve our home

[Lava Lamp]

Guidelines are great and I don't mean to sound rebellious here, but this board works because of the many regulars who have adopted a culture of tolerance and helpful criticism. I would expect that to continue whatever the "rules."

It makes me a little uneasy to put guidelines on what should be offered in terms of critique. Just like we have many levels of experience and talent in photographers, so do we have many levels of experience and talent in offering up critiques. While Photo John can (and does) offer long and insightful critiques, others may be limtied at times to saying: "it rocks!" which can sometimes be a very helpful comment.

By the same token, people will occasionally say something that seems pretty rude to me, but is also very helpful in getting the point across. What's rude? It's hard to define, but it brings me back to the culture thing. As long as we have people like gahspidy, chink, walterrick, liz, oldtimer, liz, and many others critiquing and setting a standard, the bad seed/troll types seem to go away after a while or reform. (Although we kind seem to have one now. Perhaps its too early to tell.)

[molaselake]

Does anyone actually listen to someone whom they don't agree with? I don't care how much experience you have, sometimes the people with the least can give you some highly insightful critiques. My brother-in-law (who is a dentist) looked at some of my pictures awhile back and pointed out that maybe I should crop one of my photos in a certain way. After I had done so, I was very pleased with the outcome. In contrast, I've gotten some critiques from people purporting to be experts and I've totally disagreed with them. I certainly wouldn't blindly take any criticism to heart or do what I think wouldn't benefit my work in the long run. It basically just boils down to personal taste. Of course we don't all think the same and like the same photographs! Do we all like the same movies, the same foods and the same art? Why should our photography be any different? The fact that Roger Ebert gave some movie I hated two thumbs up, doesn't make that movie any better for me. With or without your work up, I think I can make a decision on your critique, as I'm sure anyone can who actually thinks for themselves. However, arrogance certainly doesn't endear me toward your point of view and tends to butt heads with my stubborn nature. I'm always wary of a person who calls themselves an expert. Perfect technique does not automatically equal a perfect result.

Why would you want to force people to respond a certain way to pictures that are posted? Can't you write in your message line that you would like in-depth critiques? Or maybe there should be a separate area (Or is there one already? I don't know) for people who want a hardcore response? Somehow, i think the more rules you have, the less people you're going to attract. And, some of those people could be beneficial.

[Chunk]

Guidelines are great and I don't mean to sound rebellious here, but this board works because of the many regulars who have adopted a culture of tolerance and helpful criticism. I would expect that to continue whatever the "rules."

It makes me a little uneasy to put guidelines on what should be offered in terms of critique. Just like we have many levels of experience and talent in photographers, so do we have many levels of experience and talent in offering up critiques. While Photo John can (and does) offer long and insightful critiques, others may be limtied at times to saying: "it rocks!" which can sometimes be a very helpful comment.

By the same token, people will occasionally say something that seems pretty rude to me, but is also very helpful in getting the point across. What's rude? It's hard to define, but it brings me back to the culture thing. As long as we have people like gahspidy, chink, walterrick, liz, oldtimer, liz, and many others critiquing and setting a standard, the bad seed/troll types seem to go away after a while or reform. (Although we kind seem to have one now. Perhaps its too early to tell.)

I knew I should have been more careful in that last critique I made of Lava Lamp's work Chink, indeed!!

Along with different levels of photographic experience we also have different levels of communication skills. Problems with that are why I flunked out of high school and continue to plague me so many years later, although a few usenet groups for software that I used at work and PR forums have given me a lot more practice in my later years.
Some people take a little time before they get up to speed critiquing photos. I know that mine are often more superficial than some of the insightful critiques I've received.
Let's all also make sure that the insightful critiques are not inciteful as well.

[Chunk]

Well, of course, since Canada is such a "small" country and needless to say we all live in igloos, and according to one American politician we are all a bunch of sex-crazed liberals, it therefore follows logically that we all must be related to each other.

I think your "credentials" and level of logic are showing as well as your shoot the messenger attitude.

Ronnoco

The body of work (photos as well as insightful critiques) that Gary has shown here over the past couple years are the best kind of credentials for this kind of forum. In this age of inflated resumes, bloated titles, and anonymous claims on the internet a person's visible work is the best gauge of his ability and knowledge. I am very glad that he has shared this knowledge with me on many occasions, sometimes reinforcing what I already thought and other times pointing me in directions I have missed. His style of communication on the forum is one that should be emulated, not put down.
Thanks Gary, for your help over the years.

You, on the other hand, give us no visible credentials. You have given some helpful posts over the past year although your manner of delivery lately has probably limited their effectiveness. The few photos we find among your posts give little chance of seeing whether your 'credentials' are real or virtual.

[srobb]

Not sure what I can add, but I will try. First off, i like the guidelines that have been put forth by Brian and John. I, too, sort of question the two year limit, but also can see posting them in Viewfinder. I know I have some old slides I would love to get cleaned up and scanned sometime and then find out what everyone thought of them. I sometimes think that it would be interesting to see what other people could do.

I am by no means an expert at photography. Do I want to get there? You bet your sweet bippy! And I know that I need the critique of those that have a little knowledge about the subject. I find friends and family to be rather biased. ;) I know my talent level is not near some of those who post on PR, but I also know that my talent level can become better by listening to what some of these people have to say. My problem is getting past a lifetime of feeling nothing I do is worht anything.

As far as someone shooting a messenger, I didn't do it. I can tell you this, though. That messenger could have the most book learning of anyone out there, but that does not mean they are an expert. If I can't look at someone's work to see if they truly know what they are talking about, then nothing they can say is any good to me.

[mtbbrian]

Brian, could you comment further on where you and John would like to see the critique forum go? Perhaps then we can dialogue as a group on how best to get there.

...

I am a bit torn on the topic of critiquers posting their own work. There is a member of this board that does not post his own stuff very often (or at all) but his critique is valuable to me because it is experienced, honest and direct. Maybe I would be disgusted if I saw his work. But in the meantime he really makes direct points about my work and I appreciate that. I find the well-thought-out critiques here sometimes lacking, so I truly appreciate them when they do come along.

Let me also say that I really appreciate what Brian and John and all the other mods here do. I don't want this to thread to become a member-bashing thread. I love you guys and this site. I hope that we all remember that's why we're having this thread, is to help improve our home

The only real direction John and I want to take this forum is in the direction of providing constructive critics. I know that probably not what you are looking for, but that is where I think we could improve. A lot of that requires some education to those who are new or what not.

I hear you on what you are saying about seeing or not seeing someone's work when their comments are constructive. I am just of the mind that seeing someone else's work is just as valuable, it just kind of serves as a point of reference for me. But if it OK, to everyone else that you don't need to see someone's work and like their comments, then I am OK with that.

I am with you too, this is a great community we just need a little tweaking.

I'll send you that $20 now Rick! Thanks!
;)
Brian

[OldSchool]

Hi John,

My recommendation would be to merge it. I find photosig's format, for example, to be very efficient to review other's work -- and which works I would spend time on. I don't participate there for a number of reasons. But, I do know there are a few here that do from time to time :^).

Anyway, I think image icons would work great, but that's just my opinion...
Cheers,
Tim

[OldSchool]

The two year limit is not constructive in my opinion. Look at it from my (new member) perspective: you veterans of PR with 2/3/4/5 years of posting have already cycled through your older photos so posting those photos now doesn’t make sense to you. However, a new member may be just as proud of a ten-year-old photo as one taken yesterday and eager to open up both images for review. Personally, I have taken a long break from photography have just (last year actually) started taking pictures seriously and regularly again. For me, 95+% of my best images are older than 2 years and I not “digging through” my work to post them here. My older work is indicative of how I work today so I find it valid to get critiques on them. People don’t come to my house and comment on the photographs on my wall only to say, “…oh, it’s too bad you took that photograph 10 years ago”.

We all are attached to our own work. No matter how hard we may try, we are all biased to some degree. Having honest and constructive criticism, no matter when the photo was taken, is the key to improving one’s work. Would you rather we post photos like “… a shot I took yesterday during my stroll through the woods and I happened to have my camera along” or one we took a decade ago that took time and effort to setup and shoot?

I think that if this becomes a hard and fast guideline, you will miss out on a vast resource of ideas out there. How many people will you be turning away once they realize that they will not be able to post some earlier work for critique? Perhaps I am in the minority here. It would be helpful to hear the opinions of other new members.

I am not upset. I am in agreement that there needs to be more constructive criticism in this forum. Recent threads here have been off-putting to say the least. So much so that I have found myself viewing less, commenting less, and posting less. Who needs all that negativity? Has it always been like this?

Hi Loupy,
Please don't take my comment as a personal attack. No attack intended. Sorry. I like your work.

I duck out of work when I visit here. So, I just don't have a whole lot of time. But, I want to help (if I can help that is.). So, if I get the feeling that my comments will be of value, I'll critique. When someone posts a lot of images, I do not know which ones I should put energy into. Does this make sense?

Cheers,
Tim

[OldSchool]

Another thing that could be in there is asking that the posting photographer at least acknowledge the critiques they receive. It helps if the people doing the critiquing know that their time and opinion is appreciated. One can also learn more in a dialog than a monolog.

Well said... [clap][clap]

[OldSchool]

Just to follow up...

Note that I did use these words for the "strong" suggestion. Thus, I'd say old works certainly qualify....


Tim

[photophorous]

I hate to break up this lively debate with a stupid question, but can someone please tell me how to find these new guidelines? I'd like to read through them, but I can't seem to find where they're posted.

Thanks,
Paul

[mtbbrian]

I hate to break up this lively debate with a stupid question, but can someone please tell me how to find these new guidelines? I'd like to read through them, but I can't seem to find where they're posted.

Thanks,
Paul

Paul,
They are"stuck" just below this thread, they were posted by Photo-John.
I am betting you will have seen them by the time I posted this.
Brian

[Ronnoco]

We don't need to get personal here. All Gary was doing was pointing out a couple of things that have happened here in the past.
Brian

Actually Brian you are putting a positive spin on his parting shot, so you are getting personal in an equally negative manner to Garry. Please follow your own advice.

Ronnoco

[GB1]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen... do we have a little dissension in the ranks?!? Some of this sounds pretty childish. Maybe the winter's been too long, for all of us.

I've read here that there isn't enough focus on things like composition and color saturation. While this is important technical stuff that every photographer absolutely must master, having that knowledge and skill will not make you a good photographer. I find myself commenting on the tecnical stuff all the time and perhaps ignoring other factors: in essense, I am providing canned critiques, and I'm now trying to break out of that rut.

What I really like about the critiques here is their variety. Some folks don't comment on the technical aspects at all, but instead on the human aspects. I personally find this the most beneficial.

Regarding great work vs. stuff that didn't work out and we want to know why -

This is a tough one because, hasn't everyone felt at one time or another that about 99 percent of the postings that day or two just aren't that good and gotten slightly depressed about it? Sometimes a really nice shot that's an OBVIOUS really nice shot is refreshing.. to me, anyhow. But at the same time, has anyone visited photo.net's forums???? It's all excellant work. If you comment on it, 95 percent of the time the poster never replies or acknowledges, and if they do they don't seem too happy about any critisism. I've asked myself why they even bother posting, and have finally concluded it is just to either drum up some business, or show off. It's totally different than PR's forums. I'll take PRs any day too - we give and receive honest critiques here.

GB

[jar_e]

I've read here that there isn't enough focus on things like composition and color saturation. While this is important technical stuff that every photographer absolutely must master, having that knowledge and skill will not make you a good photographer. I find myself commenting on the tecnical stuff all the time and perhaps ignoring other factors: in essense, I am providing canned critiques, and I'm now trying to break out of that rut.

What I really like about the critiques here is their variety. Some folks don't comment on the technical aspects at all, but instead on the human aspects. I personally find this the most beneficial.

GB,

Couldn't agree with you more. And I hope the guidelines never become so strict and solid that we all have to follow a general way to do a critique. As I'm sure many of you know, I try to critique every photo that comes onto the photo critique forums. Until last week, I hadn't put photos on for a few months...so my post count is largely based on giving critiques and repsonding to the photographer' questions about my critiques.

I know some posters (I won't name names) have become a little complacement and wishy-washy with my critiques, as they don't seem to be constructive, but I assure you all you had to do is ask and I will explain what I mean more.

Regarding great work vs. stuff that didn't work out and we want to know why -

Well, this is a tough issue, but my thoughts on the subject are this. Only my best and favourite shots end up in this forum. Out of say...100 pictures I take, maybe 5 will end up on this critique forum. This is two folded...first, I already know the photo is a dud and it has no place or purpose after I download it off my camera. And secondly, I only want to show off my "good" work....stuff that would actually make it to the public's eye. As with any photographer, the pile of that end up in the trash is large compared to the ones that you let others see. If I plan on printing a picture or making it available to others via online or other sources, it comes through this forum first. This is pretty much an additional step to my post processing before it ends up on paper. I appreciate the comments for all of them.

Well, taht's my rant and totally off topic jibbering