B&W conversion pointers.

[Frog]

I've been enjoying converting to b/w but never sure if how good they are as conversions.
Here is one from the weekend that I converted. Unfortunately it is a jpeg.
I converted in NX2 and then adjusted in photoshop elements 6.

[starriderrick]

I can't offer much conversion advice...I'm looking forward to GB1's great tips on this one. I'm using NX1, have never used Adobe photoshop.

My serious hobbyst opinion...Shoot in B/W the D80 has a wonderful B/W mode...from my experience.This is quite off topic... but, I think you'll be amazed what the D80 in B/W mode can do.

Expose on the bright side...at least +1 EV. / high contrast.

F.Y.I. That's what I've been doing...for example..."Step Off " [+2 EV.]

Rick

[AgingEyes]

I've been enjoying converting to b/w but never sure if how good they are as conversions.
Here is one from the weekend that I converted. Unfortunately it is a jpeg.
I converted in NX2 and then adjusted in photoshop elements 6.

Jpeg is not an issue. If you like, I could show you my conversion.

Not sure if you know about it already, but usually it will help if you take a look at each of the red, green and blue channel first, Say the face looks good in the red channel but the jacket looks better in green. You could start the conversion with a red filter. Then use mask and paint away everything except the face so now everything other then the face is in color. Now convert to b&w again using the green channel, using mask and brush whenever necessary. After that, adjust local contrast, do dodge and burn as necessary.

Black and white by default is not a reflection of reality. So, do whatever you want, change the tone, etc., during the conversion to make the final image the way you want the it to look.

[jetrim]

Honestly, I think the color version is much more compelling here, but Aging Eyes has given you some very sound advice. When doing conversions it may help to remember the red, green, & blue filters accentuate highlights, midtones, & shadows respectively so although they are color names, they actually refer to tonal values. Most of the time I've found red, green, & yellow (midpoint between red and green) filters to work the best for skin tones.

[Frog]

Thanks for the pointers.
I've never really tried to shoot my D80 in b/w mode as I've always heard that its better to convert afterwards but I'll give it a try. Usually just shooting and notice that something might look better or give a different mood in b/w and then usually de-saturate in raw and then play with levels in photoshop. I've only had NX2 a short while and still feeling my way around with it.
Never have messed with channels but it sounds like its time to learn so thanks for those tips AgingEyes and jetrim.

I've put the full size in my gallery so AgingEyes or anyone else may edit it but please give me a step by step, remembering that I'm using NX2 &/or elements 6.

http://gallery.photographyreview.com...&ppuser=250919

[AgingEyes]

Some black & white photo for your inspiration:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/vincent...7619815398040/

[erikzen]

Coincidentally, I was just thinking about this very topic. I've been trying to figure out what makes a good black and white photo in terms of subject and composition.

Aging Eyes, all of your photos are very highly detailed and extremely sharp. Your photos look fantastic and are the epitome of black and white.

But does it always have to be sharp to be a good black and white photo?

Two completely different trains of thought on how to get to black and white. Aging Eyes describes an elaborate editing process with obvious results. And Rick recommending to shoot in B/W mode. I'm sure both methods can yeild stunning results.

I just converted this to B&W in Photoshop Elements. I removed all color and then played around with each tonal channel until I got something that I liked. Don't ask me what I did exactly but I futzed around with it for a while until it looked good to me.




This is what I did in color.

[starriderrick]

Frog, I had some free time, hope you didn't mind me editing this.I should have asked first.
I used the "to convert" full res. image that you posted in your gallery.

This was a tough image as it was quite underexposed,here is my go at it with capture NX.
Again,sorry that I didn't ask beforehand.

Rick.

[AgingEyes]

Aging Eyes, all of your photos are very highly detailed and extremely sharp. Your photos look fantastic and are the epitome of black and white.

Wow, you're too kind ! :blush2: :blush2: :blush2:

Did you see the link I posted above? They are photos of Vincent Versace. Some beautiful photos there.

But does it always have to be sharp to be a good black and white photo?

No. Some well-known photos don't even have their subjects in focus. Even as far as contrast goes, there're good, high contrast b&w photos and also good low contrast b&w photos.

[AgingEyes]

I have neither NX2 nor Elements 6. So, I decided to choose a method that I'm sure that can work in Elements 6. Some call it dual layer method and it's also known as the Russell Brown method. It makes use of two Hue & Saturation (H&S) layers.

First you add an H&S adjustment layer on top of the layer of your color photo. Change the blend mode of that H&S layer to 'Color'. Then you add another H&S layer on top of that H&S layer. So now you have two H&S layers on top of your original color photo. Move the saturation slider of the second H&S layer all the way to the left to get a gray scale image. No change to the blend mode i.e., Normal. Your photo is now in gray scale mode. What you do now is to adjust the hue and saturation sliders of the first H&S layer to get the results you want. You do nothing to the topmost H&S layer. All adjustments are made to the first H&S layer. Play with the sliders, note the effect on the image, and adjust till you get the results you want.

Below is the result. After the conversion, I used level and multiply to adjust the overall contrast of the photo. I don't want to make it too bright and too contrast as the original does not seem to be that bright and contrast. Then I also sharpened it to get what you see here. I didn't fix any defect. And I also didn't do any adjustment to the original photo.






Try it yourself.

[LeeIs]

My NX expired and I haven't used it too much. I only know the photoshop way. I wonder if Elements has the channel mixer option? It should be under Image -> Adjustments -> channel mixer. tick the monochromatic box at the bottom and play with the sliders a tiny bit.

[erikzen]

Interesting technique for creating a black and white image using the H&S layers. I've never had any technical Photoshop training. Why is it better to create the 2 additional layers than to just go to the color varaitions dialog box and adjust the image that way. Or just "remove color" and then adjust the color variations? What do layers do for you?

[erikzen]

Some black & white photo for your inspiration:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/vincent...7619815398040/

Definitely inspirational!

[Frog]

Rick, its fine to edit as I said in post 5,(AgingEyes or anybody else).
Thank you Aging Eyes, Rick, jetrim for advice and technique and erikzen for asking questions too.
Rick, I too like the color version but haven't done any work on it yet. I want to and ask my son for the people's address so I can send this and a couple other shots of their kids to them. That said, I do like AgingEyes conversion better and its probably just a matter of taste. I see that you did do more face work, removing zits, and smoothing. I'd only removed the one on his nose.
That link to the 'all black and whites' shows what I want to be able to achieve.
I've done very little work with layers and just need to sit down and spend some time, seeing what I can achieve.
I don't think there is a channel mixer in elements but there is in NX2 and I just didn't know how to use it nor even why this color thing comes up when I convert but now I have a bit more knowledge.
Thank you again all! I'll give it another go with your advice and see what I can come up with, hopefully better.

[OldClicker]

Frog,

Have you tried Enhance>Convert to Black & White in Elements? You can adjust each of the colors.

TF

[AgingEyes]

Why is it better to create the 2 additional layers

Not sure if it's better but the idea behind this Russell Brown method, according to the explanation of Katrim Eismann, goes like this: The desaturated H&S layer is like the black & white film itself. The H&S layer in Color blend mode is like the color filters people use on their lens when they are shooting with b&w films. The original color photo is the scene that you are photographing. When you adjust the hue and saturation of the filter H&S layer, you are doing the same as when people put different color filters on their lens. You do know why people use color filters, right?

Also as per Eismann, one good thing about this method is you won't create any blown highlights.

than to just go to the color varaitions dialog box and adjust the image that way. Or just "remove color" and then adjust the color variations? What do layers do for you?

Hmmm...not sure what you mean but, what color variations you adjust? If you have desaturated the colors of the photo, so that now the image is in b&w, where are the colors you are to adjust?

[jetrim]

Hmmm...not sure what you mean but, what color variations you adjust? If you have desaturated the colors of the photo, so that now the image is in b&w, where are the colors you are to adjust?

I'll take a shot at answering this point,
Any color file can be simply converted to grayscale and the contrast adjusted. The problem is that usually the image comes out looking somewhat flat and lifeless (like Frog's original) because the adjustments made are linear. Some of the other methods described allow you to change the image in a more dynamic way which results in something more pleasing to the eye. The eye can distinguish a range of tones equal to about 11 stops on a camera, film can record about 6-7 stops but digital can only record 3-4 stops, so these manipulations are an attempt to recreate a range of tones that the eye could see if the eye were standing there looking at the subject of the photo. If you only convert to grayscale and adjust from there, you're still stuck with 3-4 stops of tonal variation (that's why the shot looks "flat").

[Trevor Ash]

I wrote a tutorial ages ago about how to use the channel mixer for black an white conversions. There are TONS of techniques but I still find myself starting with the channel mixer before moving to the other techniques.

Here's the link

Wow, I wrote that five years ago......time flies.

The final tip I would give is that you probably want to have a goal in mind when doing a black and white conversion. By goal I simply mean figure out in your head where you want the tones in the image to fall. Using your photo as an example, I'd assume you want his face to have bright tonal values and the background to fall very dark.

AgingEyes did a very appealing conversion in my opinion. He did what I was also visualizing when I imagined it converted to black and white. Notice how well he kept the tone differences in the different camouflage tones.

[Frog]

This has become quite an educational thread for me and I thank everyone for the input.
I worked quite a bit on the original last night and thought I had it pretty good but when I saved it, it appeared much darker than I thought I had adjusted it for so I'm going to give it another go later.

[erikzen]

I agree with Frog. I've learned a lot from this thead. Trevor, thanks for the link to your tutorial. What software were you using?

I tried the method Aging Eyes outlined on another photo and liked the results very much. I also lowered the saturation slider to -85 leaving a slight bit of color in the image. This seemed to allow me to get even greater tonal range on the image. I was able to give the sand an almost brown tone.