Whats it worth?

[hesaias]

Pictures, that is.

I am getting some freelance work now, and Im wondering what I should be making. I traded 8 pics for a media pass for the State Championship. One made front page, above the fold.

I am mainly after picture credit, you know, to get some pics published, but that 2.8 lens is not gonna be cheap, and I would like to have my camera earning its keep

[masdog]

I charged my school $15 for an 11x14, mainly because I doing photography as part of my internship for the athletic department. As soon as I got my printer, I told them my costs had gone up.

JSPhoto would be the person to ask about this.

[JSPhoto]

Well lets see here $$$$$ is all I see anymore, not coming in but going out to buy more and more gear! Now I need a new laptop, or at least a screen for one, problem is is it cheaper to buy a new laptop!

Oh, yeah, sorry Scott, sidetracked here....but it adds up ($$ again) to the same thing. To figure out how much you should get you need to consider the following:

1: your experiance - the more experiance you have the more you can charge.
2: the area economy - what do others with similar experance & subjects charge?
3: what does it cost you? time, travel, gear, post processing time,printing, software, CD's etc.
4: how much profit do you need? This has to take the above into play as well, especially #1.

JS

[masdog]

That's a great list, JS, but how do you find out about #2? Pro Photographers, as you have often said, guard that sort of information fiercely.

[fumehood]

I asked that same question once. You can check it out here.

I think the biggest lesson I learned, is that you should almost never do anything for free. You should get $ AND get photo credits. Just think about the pro photographers out there trying to make a living, and then along comes an amature (just like you and me) willing to give away an image just to see our name in print. People try and actually do make a living taking photographs, you are just slapping each and every one of them in the face when you give an image away. If you have an image that someone wants, they will pay you for it. If they don’t like the price, negotiate.

To put thing into perspective… According to FotoQuote, for your front-page image for a newspaper w/ a circulation of 10K-25K should have earned you between $522 - $1066. If you are even remotely considering selling some images, I highly suggest getting FotoQuote, or something similar. The program instantly brings a sense of professionalism to you and your images when you can produce an official looking quote and invoice. An on-line site for your how much is it worth questions can be found here.

Getting screwed over was the best thing that could have happened to me. I was absolutely clueless about the business of selling photographs before then. It forced me to figure it out, and within a week I learned how to conduct business to benefit me, my clients, and every other photographer out there. I suggest reading as much as you can and asking as many questions as you can think of on forums like these. It will pay off in the long run…literally!

[Photo-John]

Don't give your work away for free. If people want it, it's worth money. You invest your time and money, people should respect and be willing to pay for it. And giving away your photos just devalues them. If people don't have to pay, they won't think your photography is good - sad but true.

That said, it's tough to start getting paid. And it's hard to figure out how much to charge. I don't think there's any magic guide. It's a free market and you should charge what the market will bear. You might ask around to find out what other people charge. Don't trade photos for photo credit! Or be really careful about doing that. Like I said, if you don't charge for your photos, people won't thiink they're worth paying for. Plus, every time you give away a photo you devalue photography in general. As a group, we need to stand up for ourselves and get paid what we're worth.

[JSPhoto]

That's a great list, JS, but how do you find out about #2? Pro Photographers, as you have often said, guard that sort of information fiercely.

Well thats one advantage to doing sports photography. A lot of it you can find on the internet if you know the photographers name, find their website and see what they charge for various things. If they don't list prices, email them for a price quote. I use various email addresses just for pricing purposes. OOpppsss, just let one of my secrets out....
The other trick is I have a friends wife call around and get prices and then there is the other one where my friends who race keep me informed about prices
But never go by the Wal Mart or similar prices! That will break you in a heartbeat.

JS

[hesaias]

Well.......

I really had no choice but to do it for free in this case. I needed to get on the sidelines, and I have never gotten published. Ever.

Here is how it went down: I walked into the newspaper office and asked for a press pass for the State Championship football game. The Publisher I asked had 3 staff photographers going already, and he did not know me from Adam. Without the offer, I would not have been able to take the image he published. Now, He told me he was looking forward to seeing more of my work in the future, so.....

Im gonna put together some Discs of the season for the school, and sell them for about $20. As the sales go, so goes the price I guess.

[masdog]

PJ - That's true with any field you go into, except maybe for doing computer technical support for college students (and then you MIGHT get free beer...which is even better).

What I learned about pricing surprised me, especially when dealing with corporate clients. If you price yourself low, they might not respect your ability. I had a friend who ran his own software company, and he lost jobs because his company priced themselves too low. It didn't matter that they could prove that they would do a better job - they priced themselves out by trying to lowball everyone.

[Photo-John]

What I learned about pricing surprised me, especially when dealing with corporate clients. If you price yourself low, they might not respect your ability.

I think we're more or less saying the same thing here. I'm in agreement with you anyway. I think you said it better than I did. People will think: if you don't charge for it, it must not be worth anything. And the corollary is, the more you charge, the better it must be. Of course, you don't want to charge someone a bunch of money and then not deliver a quality product. So there's a balance to be found. Charge a fair price and do a good job and everyone will be happy.

Most of the time.

You hope.

[swmdrayfan]

Great thread started here! I've been battling the question for a few days now. I've been contacted by a local minor league baseball team about being the team photographer next summer. I was offered a couple of season tickets (box seats) in exchange for my work.
There are several things I have been thinking about:
1) For the past couple of years I've been taking pictures over there and giving cd's to the players--something for them and their families to remember their year here.

2) Previously this has been a hobby. All expenses (gas, camera supplies, etc.) have come out of my own pocket.

3) I've been doing free lance work for a baseball card company and getting paid for each picture used on baseball cards (4 so far). I also have been paid for a picture used in a national magazine about minor league baseball.

4) I have a great relationship with the staff of the team. They sell my pictures in the souvenir shop.

What they want is to use my pictures on the team website (photo credit), brochures, program, etc. I was told a second photographer would be brought in for certain special events. I'm assuming also that the 'second photographer' would be doing the team baseball cards and team picture. I have not committed to anything other than saying I would be favorable towards taking the job. However the question arises over compensation. The value of the season tickets would be around $725.00. I don't feel it is enough, considering my expenses, wear and tear on the camera, and all the other intangibles involved. I'm going to check around with the other GM's in the league to see what they pay their team photographers. I think many of them use staff members, judging by some of the pics I've seen.
Sorry for the length of this, but I'm weighing so many things here, and need some feedback.

[JSPhoto]

They are selling your photos and NOT paying you? Do they have your permission (in writing) to reproduce and sell your photos? I wouldn't let them get more than 20-30%!

Your right, $725 isn't enough, that wouldn't cover a weekend for me! You can't do it for free, explain to them it costs you money, gas, gear, time etc. It really sounds to me like they are trying tyo take advantage of you.
Most teams, including amature have PAID photographers who get a commision off sales as well. Sounds like they are trying to save a few grand at your exspense...which is one reason you should never give anything away!

JS
JS

[Photo-John]

Tell them you're interested, but not for season tickets. You'd rather keep paying to be there and you'll charge them based on image usage. This also ensures that your retain all rights to the images you shoot. It just occured to me that if you are employed by them, they have a legal claim to everything you shoot. Unless they're paying you a lot, it ain't worth it. They're in business to make money. I'm sure they don't give away game tickets and advertising for free. They should pay for your services. Consider this a negotiation process. Their first offer sucks. Counter-offer with something that you think is a bit high. Base it on an hourly rate. And keep in mind that if you're doing "work for hire," they will own the photos you shoot on their time. You can make a contract that says otherwise. But it's a detail you need to keep in mind.

Lots of things to think about, huh?

[masdog]

If you ask me, it should almost be a full-time job. The summer baseball season is a long one, and I'm guessing they are going to want you at every home game plus team and individual pictures. That's going to take up a lot of your time, so it deserves more than a pair of season tickets. Besides, how can you enjoy your season tickets if you're shooting the game?

[swmdrayfan]

P-J.....First of all, I don't need the season tickets. I have a minor league pass and I told the GM that very thing. I didn't mention (my fault) that the pictures they are selling in the souvenir shop were being split 3 ways (equal split between me, the team, and the players). This was a deal made during the season. Having been my first involvement with anything of that nature, I accepted that deal. My main concern at the time was making sure the players got a piece of the pie. I have been doing research and see that if I take the team's offer for next year, I am seriously being shortchanged. I'm currently in the process of checking with other teams to see how they deal with team photographers, and will have some facts and figures with which to stand on when it comes to negotiating a deal for 2006. It becomes a matter of thinking like a businessman instead of a fan. I want to negotiate from a position of strength, and if they decline whatever counter-offer I propose, then both sides can walk away. I've been supportive of the team, have a great relationship with the management and they know it, but it's time to get real.