copyright question

[keens157]

I did some photographs of a big canoeing event in Hawaii recently and I gave a few pics to one of my best friends who was in the photos,he turned around and gave some pictures to one of the big clothing manufacturers who ran one of my pictures in one of there ads.I talked to a couple friends who said that he got paid for the photos.

Is that legal or am I just an idiot?

[cyberlord]

First things first. Ask your friend directly if he was paid for the photos. Second hand information is not reliable.

What your friend did was not legal. Unless you signed your copyrights over to him, you still own all the rights to the photos.

I imagine your friend had to sign some legal papers saying he was the copyright owner of the photos, and if he did he committed fraud. If you go after the clothing company they most likely will go after your friend.

If he did not sign any paperwork for the clothing company they screwed up big time.

Talk to your friend. If he got paid he should at least split the money with you (he was the model and did the leg work). You two work out the details between yourselves.

If you and your friend work it out, call the clothing company and ask them to add your name as the photographer in their advertisements. You could ask them to quit using your photographs if they won't add your name if that's something you want. They might do either or continue to use your photos as is. You will have to decide if it's worth taking further action. On the other hand they might stop using your photos and go after your friend anyway.

Lesson learned. Don't just give your work away to anyone unless you don't want/need to be compensated for it. If you are asking the question here then you must feel like you need to be compensated in some way (I'm assuming).

You have a dilemma on your hands. Is he a good enough friend to talk to about this and forgive and forget?

If you can put all this behind you, get your foot in the door with the clothing company for future advertising campaigns!!! They must have liked your work and may want to use you again.

Tim

Edited for spelling.

[keens157]

First things first. Ask your firend directly if he was paid for the photos. Second hand information is not reliable.

What your friend did was not legal. Unless you signed your copyrights over to him, you still own all the rights to the photos.

I imagine your friend had to sign some legal papers saying he was the copyright owner of the photos, and if he did he committed fraud. If you go after the clothing company they most likely will go after your friend.

If he did not sign any paperwork for the clothing company they screwed up big time.

Talk to your friend. If he got paid he should atleast split the money with you (he was the model and did the leg work). You two work out the details between yourselves.

If you and your friend work it out, call the clothing company and ask them to add your name as the photographer in their advertisements. You could ask them to quit using your photographs if they won't add your name if that's something you want. They might do either or continue to use your photos as is. You will have to decide if it's worth taking further action. On the other hand they might stop using your photos and go after your friend anyway.

Lesson learned. Don't just give your work away to anyone unless you don't want/need to be compensated for it. If you are asking the question here then you must feel like you need to be compensated in some way (I'm assuming).

You have a delema on your hands. Is he a good enough friend to talk to about this and forgive and forget?

If you can put all this behind you, get your foot in the door with the clothing company for future advertising compaigns!!! They must have liked your work and may want to use you again.

Tim

Thank you for taking the time to answer.Here's the deal,I'm not worried so much about the money as the recognition.I'd like to have my name somewhere saying that I took the picture,but if someone is going to make money off of my photos I feel I'm entitled to a share.I didn't buy 4 grand worth of camera equipment so that my friends can make money off my pics.

The thing is,the clothing company was going to hire a photographer to be on the boat to take pictures but he never showed up.I was coaching the crew and I had my gear with me so I took pictures.There was some really good shots and I gave them to my friend for his personal use.He's one of my best friends,best man at my wedding and all that.I will talk to him and work it out but I am going to pursue action against the clothing company if it's within my rights.

The picture is a full page ad in a local paddling magazine and it's being used in there store.

Anyway,thanks for your time and info,I will get to the bottom of this

[livin4lax09]

dont work for recognition, especially if its in an ad. If it's an advertisement, obviously they have money, and they would have to pay otherwise.

[cyberlord]

Just remember if you go after the clothing company and your friend signed a copyright release they may just sue your friend for fraud.

I thought that was important enough to bring up again.

Good luck in what ever you decide.

Tim

[keens157]

Thanks for all the info.It turns out my friend didn't sign any release forms and he didn't recieve any money for the photos.I finally seen the actual magazine and it turns out that the ad was a full page back cover ad.

I am thinking about pursuing legal action but will look into all possible scenarios first.

[cyberlord]

Good deal!

[mwfanelli]

Thanks for all the info.It turns out my friend didn't sign any release forms and he didn't recieve any money for the photos.I finally seen the actual magazine and it turns out that the ad was a full page back cover ad.

I am thinking about pursuing legal action but will look into all possible scenarios first.

I just mentioned this to my girlfriend's brother who is lawyer (and a terrible lousy person, but that's another story). In a nutshell, you are pretty much out of luck. You handed over the photos with no stipulation of use in writing. Your friend handed those photos over with nothing in writing and no payment or claim to ownership. Pretty much, you are out of luck as no court will support your claims. In fact, by giving them away, some may construe that has you having released them to the public even while retaining the copyright.

If you are a pro and have photos you have placed a value on, get a written agreement with terms of use clearly stated before handing them out.Otherwise, live with the "glory of publication" in your heart!

[delsol]

I have to say that I disagree with the views of the girlfriend's brother. Although, laws do differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, copyright laws are more uniform than most others due to international treaties being signed between the signatory countries. Having said that and the fact that I'm not actually acquainted with the laws of Hawaii (assuming that's where Keens is) I would say that I'm more incline to agree with the views given by Cyberlord.

By giving copies to Keen's friends, that is an act of granting license to use the photographs. Assuming that Keen didn't explicitly mention how and to what extent his friend may use the photos, this would probably be construed as a licence to use in a personal capacity. It would be too far stretch to construe that the friend has been given a licence which he could exploit commercially since Keens is not getting any money in return and certainly, I doubt it could be construed that Keens has given his copyright away or even, a licence to grant further licences.

In most cases therefore, the licencees do not have a right to grant another, a further licence. If Keen's friend was the copyright owner, then it may be true that by giving the photos to the clothing company, that will could be a licence to the clothing company to use it commercially. But Keen's friend is not the copyright owner and he can't grant what he doesn't have.

Therefore, I do believe that the clothing company has gotten itself into hot soup by being reckless in not checking who the copyright owner is and making sure they obtained a proper licence to use it commercially.

[M_Young]

You handed out pics to your friends, it DOESN’T AFFECT the copyrights that you are having on pics.
The clothing company placed your pics on ad, no matter what agreed by your friend or not, you can sue the clothing company for money. If they are paid photos, you may get judgment against clothing company and the clothing company can sue your friend for reimbursement.

[SmartWombat]

I am thinking about pursuing legal action but will look into all possible scenarios first.

Usually I think the lawyers win the legal action, and you get the crumbs

[Medley]

Usually I think the lawyers win the legal action, and you get the crumbs

Exactly. It would be cheaper in the long run for you to take out an ad in the magazine claiming you took the picture.

Cases involving an interpretation of the law are the bread and butter of laywers, and usually involve hefty fees.

Sine you've already stated that you're more interested in recognition than payment, my advice is to contact the company in a friendly manner and do some networking. "Perhaps you'd be interested in looking over my portfolio and giving me some tips on what you look for, since you've already printed one of my pieces.", kind of thing.

-Joe U.

[MarcusK]

In matters of Theoretical Law yes you could pursue legal action against the company!

But the way i see it these are your options:

First off, Learn from this...never give pictures to ANYONE if you care about them enough...then:

1- Talk to a lawyer and pay them for their time, and based on their advice make a decision (which will end up costing you more than is worth)

2- Talk to the company, saying how you realized they liked your photo, and would like to strike a deal for future work together....

In the end think of it as an investment...you did not get paid or get credit for your photo, but you could benefit form the whole situation in getting a contract with the company for future ads, which will give you income and credit!

Note: Regarding the issue at hand though, the matter is simple as any lawyer worth his salt would argue: if there is no Written Contract or even Verbal contract, then you simply gave away the image....its a lost cause....although technically the image is yours....

Marc