another pricing question:

[Annie]

i've got a freelance gig in about a month for concert photography.

they want "10 to 12 really good shots" of them and the crowd.

last time i worked for them, i got $50 for about 20hrs of work (photoshop and stuff included) and took about 100 shots of which i gave them 30.

they want to know what to charge this time.

i don't want to over-charge b/c even though i have a D70, i only really have the kit lens and a zoom (not good for dark venues). but i can do some good stuff with what i have.

any recs?

thanks!

[another view]

As a photographer, I'd say $100 per hour of shooting time is common and pretty reasonable - three hours = $300, and this is a fair amount of work for $300 because you're still doing the PS work and will have a few expenses involved. You don't necessarily need to stay all night to get the results, but if you're not there when something happens then you can't photograph it.

However, as a musician, my band couldn't afford to hire a photographer for $300 - and we're doing pretty well on the local level. A lot of bands don't make $300 when they play (for the whole band, not each!) so usually there are pretty limited budgets to work with.

I know I didn't answer your question...

Don't sell yourself short because of equipment. Look at some of the classic jazz shots taken years ago on fully manual 4x5 press cameras. Amazing stuff, and absolutely nothing automatic on them. No PS either! You may consider adding a lens like the 50 f1.8 at under $100 for this kind of work - it will really help. I'm a big believer in shooting bands without flash (mainly for the look, not because of distraction) and it takes fast lenses and high ISO speeds to do this.

[Sebastian]

Last time you worked with them you made $2.5 per hour. You really need to think about the impact of that last sentence.

AV is on the right track. You need to figure out how much you have invested in your business, cost of cameras, lenses, software, computers, time and education, etc. Figure out how quickly you want to make that back, how much you're willing to work per week/month and figure out how much you have to charge to make that happen. And that's just to start. Think of it this way, if you had only photography to live off of, paying your own wage and health care, how much would you have to charge? And don't think that you can get away with really low prices because you don't have much overhead. You'll only be teaching people that photography isn't worth much, and you'll be hurting yourself in the long run.

Bust out that calculator and do some math, give them your price, and be prepared to say "no" and move on. I've lost thousands of dollars on a deal because I refused to accept $200 in exchange for about $7,000 worth of licensing fees. You know what? It was money I didn't have anyway, and I felt great knowing that I stood my ground and didn't lower my standards. I was already giving them a huge discount because they were a non-for-profit that I believed in. Still wasn't enough because "Other people give them to us for free! We'll give you credit!" That last one is the worst. Credit is not payment, credit is assumed when you run a photo.

Your work has value. Digital isn't free. Don't ever forget that.

[Sebastian]

Here's the NPPA's cost of doing business calculator:

http://www.nppa.org/professional_dev...cdb/index.html

And here's the software everyone recommends to find out price ranges for all sorts of different licensing terms:

http://www.fotoquote.com/

[fotomatt]

Hi Annie -

Sebastian is right on target! Working for $2.50 per hour is bad for everyone! It demeans your work and isn't fair to you.

Use the sources he listed to help you with your pricing.

It is not just about shooting the gig. It's also your time and expenses related to the job. AND on top of that is the usage of the images. ALL THESE NEED TO BE FACTORED INTO THE PRICING STRUCTURE.

If you are serious about your work, PLEASE join a group like ASMP (http://www.ASMP.org) to learn more about the business of doing photography. When I first went commercial (after years of being an underpayed photojournalist!) it was ASMP members who shared their knowledge with me. I would not have made it were it not for that group.

[adina]

Sometimes in a situation like this, if the club (I'm assuming it's a club) can't afford to pay you what you're worth, you might want to find out what they can do for you.

I've been trading work for store credit for a while now, with some places that I work with. Works out great for all of us.

[Loupey]

Consider something like this:

1st hour (minimum): $150
Each additional 30 minutes: $50
Mileage (round trip): $0.45/mile

Each 8"x10"/12" Copyrighted Print: $20

Because most people don't know exactly how many prints they will eventually purchase, at least get your first three fees paid up front. That way, your initial costs and time invested are covered; and you and the band will know exactly what your time commitment will be.

Worry about the prints later. Once the band pays you for the commitment, they will feel obligated to buy (and pay additionally) for some prints later. If they only buy 1, at least you got paid several hundred dollars for that 1

As for your equipment, don't ever let your customers think that you don't have confidence in your own equipment. It's your results that count. I'm still shooting with an old Canon 10D (which I believe is older than your D70). And I just shot a 3 hour job this morning and processed 30 good shots of which the customer will most likely buy about 1/2. Do the math.

[another view]

I'm guessing that all of this sounds pretty discouraging - or at least not what you expected to hear. I'd love to do band photography professionally, but there really isn't a market for it on the local level from my experience. It's tough to get good band shots, but when you get it right you've got some great shots. I really enjoy doing it, and still do it just for fun.

Is $100 better than $50? Sure, but you're still not getting close to what it should be worth. A friend called me to photograph their band at an outdoor festival last year and I told him I'd do it for $100. Having shown him some of my work, I thought I was giving him a really low price as a favor and I was going to be there anyway. I didn't get hired.

So... If you want to do this type of photography I wonder if it's better in your long-term interest to donate your time and build a portfolio. It's not fun to do some work for someone really cheap as a favor, then them telling other people that you'll do work for them for that price (been there, done that...).

[masdog]

Hi Annie.

This is a very difficult question to answer, and there is a lot to take into consideration. From a business point of view, its not just about how much money you make, especially if this is supplementary income and you're just starting out. The free advertising that you can get yourself is just as important as any money you make.

When you talk to the band again, negotiate with them. Set what you think is a fair price as your lower limit, and come in asking for double or triple that. If they balk, then start bringing the price down. If you get to your lower limit and they still think its too high, don't be afraid to say "No" and walk away.

AV's idea of doing it for free to build your portfolio isn't a bad idea either. I was able to put together one great sports portfolio because of my internship.

If you choose this route, there are other paths to making money off of this opportunity. You can use this to generate free advertising and gain some business with the individual band members for things like family portraits and Christmas cards or with other bands who need photography. You might also be able to get permission to sell the photos and make a couple of bucks that way.

[masdog]

...I thought I was giving him a really low price as a favor and I was going to be there anyway. I didn't get hired.

Did you get a reason why you weren't hired?

[adina]

FYI....

I would think that this sort of question would be better posted on the Photo Business and Law forum.

[another view]

Did you get a reason why you weren't hired?

I'm a friend with one band member but another had already hired someone else. I don't know what they paid if anything - didn't really care to ask. I did see the work though, and...

I didn't explain why I said that you might consider doing it for free, other than to build a portfolio which in itself can obviously be valuable. Working for $50 means that you will (in their minds) work for $50 again and again. Raising it to $100 doesn't really make the situation any better - still below what it's worth (again IMO). Removing the dollar amount from the job doesn't remove the value of the work - but it's important to pick projects that will benefit you as well since you're building your portfolio.

IOW, if you've shot a band in a typical club you probably don't want to shoot the same band again unless they're in a different setting that would really give you great shots (headliner slot on large outdoor stage, House of Blues, etc - dream big!). If you've shot a similar band in one club, you probably wouldn't want to shoot another band in that same club unless there was something that they had that you thought might make some really great pictures that you didn't already have (like a really crazy singer or an accordian player , etc). Best case would be to have your portfolio not just have great shots in it, but varied shots in it as well. Twenty great shots of the same band in the same club wouldn't have that kind of impression.