K10D Noise Banding...

[almo]

VPN, is it really an issue. I have read different reviews, threads, and articals, and they all have something different to say. Some say it is even a problem at 100ISO, and even with RAW images. This is a real heartache for me, I feel like someone just pulled the rug out from under me.

Please guys, so it ain't so.

[Didache]

I have had no problem at all with noise banding, but then I don't usually shoot at too high an iso. The prevailing opinion is that the K10D produces very clean images up to iso 800. There is a small noise buildup from 800 to 1600, but no worse than any other camera in its class. Finally, noise banding has only been reported (on Pentax forums anyway) in SOME images at 1600 and up. Note only in SOME images where it seems to be mainly in the blue channel (always the noisiest) and is easily dealt with by noise ninja etc. There HAS been some discussion about it, but the most common view now is that it isn't banding at all, but simply noise at 1600iso for longish exposure shots.

I really don't know where the idea of noise banding at 100 iso comes from - nobody on the forums mentions this at all - indeed, quite the opposite.

Here is an image I did as part of my London Underground project .. this is 800 iso at 1/30sec: http://images5.fotopic.net/?iid=yoqb...ze=1&nostamp=1

There isn't the slightest trace of noise banding, or even noise!

Cheers
Mike

[almo]

I have had no problem at all with noise banding, but then I don't usually shoot at too high an iso. The prevailing opinion is that the K10D produces very clean images up to iso 800. There is a small noise buildup from 800 to 1600, but no worse than any other camera in its class. Finally, noise banding has only been reported (on Pentax forums anyway) in SOME images at 1600 and up. Note only in SOME images where it seems to be mainly in the blue channel (always the noisiest) and is easily dealt with by noise ninja etc. There HAS been some discussion about it, but the most common view now is that it isn't banding at all, but simply noise at 1600iso for longish exposure shots.

I really don't know where the idea of noise banding at 100 iso comes from - nobody on the forums mentions this at all - indeed, quite the opposite.

Here is an image I did as part of my London Underground project .. this is 800 iso at 1/30sec: http://images5.fotopic.net/?iid=yoqb...ze=1&nostamp=1

There isn't the slightest trace of noise banding, or even noise!

Cheers
Mike

Thanks Mike, You da man!

The ISO 100 thing was something I saw on DPreview-com. It was accompanied by an image that supposedly had banding in it, but being at work when I saw it I olny had a cheap LCD and a very bright environment to view it, so i couldn't see any, but they were insisting it was there. Now I am not much of a pixel peper, although I've been known to do it, but patterned noise would kill an image for me. If its more like the issue that the Canon 1D MK I had then I don't think it would bother me so much, but I really am afraid to plunk down the money on a brand new system when, for the first time in history I am in a positin to buy a brand new Canon DSLR, the 30D. So ok, it's not new to the market, but I could procure a new one. But the stablization of the K10D is a big plus for me. Is it true that it helps in keeping you at lower ISOs anyway? I can't afford IS lenses, period, not now, not for a long time, so if I am going to have it it has to be in camera. I don't like the sony, at all, I've done Oly, and no thanks, ya know. So If not pentaxam going to stick with Canon. I just need to know I am going to get the kind of clear images I am used to with my Canons. I know there are differences, and that is fine, it gives each camera a "look", so to speak, but obvious digital noise is a big deal to me.

I am a full time RAW shooter, very rarely do I ever shoot a jpeg. Do you think that would help with the problem or not? I don't suppose that the in camera processing of the jpeg with make that big a difference would it?

This is what I am used to seeing...

Canon EOS D30


D60, My second one...


D60, My first one...


Can I expect this from the K10?

[Didache]

Hi Almo .. I went and had a look at the DPreview of the K10D as that is what you were using. This is from that same review:

"As seems to be the case with most recent digital SLR's there is almost no difference in noise levels between these three cameras from ISO 100 to 400. At ISO 800 the D80 looks cleaner, a glance at the graph below tells you why, it's when Nikon's noise reduction kicks in properly and that also has some effect on detail. At ISO 1600 the most noteworthy feature of the K10D crop is the strength and visibility of chroma noise in the gray patch although it should also be noted that detail levels are still good.... Overall I would say that Pentax are using a minimal amount of noise reduction in order to maintain as much detail as possible, and that at ISO 1600 the K10D comes third place for noise (most of that chroma) and second place behind the EOS 30D for detail."

So, even that seems to be saying that up to 1600 or so there is little difference between the Pentax and the others - and that at least part of the issue at 1600 (and beyond) may be down to a less aggressive noise reduction in-camera.

From the same review:

"We have read some discussion about 'banding' at ISO 1600, we didn't have any good examples of this in our everyday shots, it was possible to take a very dark shot and see some hint of banding in the red/blue channels but it's pretty unlikely this would be visible viewed on a screen or in print (it's certainly not a stand-out issue)."

And, in the conclusion, it gives it a Highly recommended.

Of course, in the end cameras come down to a matter of taste. You are very right that all cameras produce images with a certain "look" and Pentax are no different than any other make. For myself, I have always been a Pentax shooter (except for a brief period in the late 70s when I had a Canon Ftbn). I had a Pentax *ist film then a *istDL (digital) and now a K10D - I bought it body only because it was cheap (it was a cabinet display model) and I had 4 lenses already. I can honestly say that I have never regretted it and that it is easily the best camera I have ever owned - and I do club competition photography where judges are looking at near A3 size prints under a lit easel where any bad noise would be a killer.

The things which especially attracted me was the weather sealing (British weather can be drizzly!) and the shake reduction (with 4 lenses already an in-camera system was attractive). It works pretty well I think .. over the past 9 months I have been working on a project to try and gain an ARPS (Associate of the Royal Photographic Society) - the project has involved a lot of shooting in the London subway system and the lack of light has meant that I have shot at 800iso and 1/20 or 1/30 sec, handheld. Sharpness was pretty consistent even at those settings. You can see the projected panel at:

http://album2591.fotopic.net/c1367250.html

The only picture there with a noise issue is the one called Panda - where the light in the very top right was almost completely shadowed out and which I had to bring up more than is healthy.

Usually though, I have the camera set on 100iso and images are always very clean. If you want any full-sized images to compare, let me know - I can always email you one.

Also, have a look at Overbeyond 's pictures (he's very active on this forum) - we have met up a couple of times and he's a K10D shooter as well and very helpful if you wanted his take on it.

The Canon 30D is a great camera - I would be tempted too if I were a Canon shooter and if you went for that over the Pentax, I am sure you would be happy with it. But I think you would also be happy with the Pentax once you got used to its slightly different look.

Good luck with the choice!
Mike