Your Voting Choices

[mwfanelli]

Now with a week and a day left until elections, have you made up your mind? Who are you voting for? What state are you voting in? Will you bother to vote at all?

For me, I'm in Maryland and voting against all incumbents regardless of party. Long live the revolution! Up against the wall mo... uh, never mind, just showing my age.

[drg]

I voted absentee to leave a paper trail!

I did vote for a few incumbents, particularly in local elections, but I agree that this year voting is almost by definiton an act of protest.

Illinois is having a few more corruption issues than normal this year. Both gubernatorial candidates have problems with the Feds. What a choice.

[another view]

drg, I saw you posted to this thread and as another IL resident I was curious to see if you brought up the race for governor... Ugh.

It seems like every past election was an easier choice than the upcoming one. It's turning to "lesser of two evils" more often than not. There are a couple of good ones out there on a more local level that I'm happy to vote for, but it's almost a coin toss on some of the others. But I'm going to continue to research and will make informed choices (to some extent, anyway). And I will vote.

[walterick]

I'm voting Democratic across the board. And then expecting Congress to act bipartisan Yeah, I want it both ways.

The Senate race here in Az is probably done. The incumbant John Kyl (Arizona'a "other" Senator) is comfortably ahead of the challenger Jim Pederson, who is a wealthy shopping mall developer basically running on opposition to Kyl's closeness with the Bush administration. This will probably not be a seat the Dems will win, but stranger things have happened.

The only other race of importance to me is the gubernatorial race, which our popular Democratic Governor Janet Napolitano should have comfortably, though the challenger Len Munsil is running a nasty race.

Arizona is one of those states with tons of propositions on the ballot this year. Everything from gay marriage to banning smoking in bars to conserving land. It takes a lot of work to figure out what each is saying, and what its "opposing" proposition is saying in response.

[walterick]

Well, the votes are in.

Senator Kyl one handily, as did governor Janet Napolitano. The big news in Arizona came in the house, where long-time incumbant Republican JD Hayworth lost his seat to challenger Harry Mitchell. Also of significance is the fact that Arizona is now the first state ever to reject an amendment to ban gay marriage. We also voted to outlaw smoking in all bars and restaurants and conserve several hundred thousand acres of land under state trust. The downers of the night are all of the anti-hispanic measures that passed, including making English as the official state language.

All in all, a very exciting evening in the US elections, with more seats still to be announced!

[mwfanelli]

Well, the votes are in.

Senator Kyl one handily, as did governor Janet Napolitano. The big news in Arizona came in the house, where long-time incumbant Republican JD Hayworth lost his seat to challenger Harry Mitchell. Also of significance is the fact that Arizona is now the first state ever to reject an amendment to ban gay marriage. We also voted to outlaw smoking in all bars and restaurants and conserve several hundred thousand acres of land under state trust. The downers of the night are all of the anti-hispanic measures that passed, including making English as the official state language.

All in all, a very exciting evening in the US elections, with more seats still to be announced!

Yep, a very interesting vote. If the Dems act the same amoral and unethical way that Republicans have, they will be out of office again in two years. Do politicians ever really learn anything?

Uh... English as an official language is not "anti-hispanic" any more than it is "anti-German", "anti-French", "anti-Arab", or even "anti-funny-English-Englsh." There is no reason to spend huge amounts of time and money translating everything into lots of languages just because residents, legal and illegal, can't be bothered to learn the language of their adopted country.

[walterick]

In the current political climate of Arizona, the English-language prop was directed at the growing hispanic population and is a result of the frustration with the border security problems. Voters also passed several other measures which take rights away from illegal immigrants. Saying that making English the official language has as much to do with French speakers as it does Spanish speakers is ignoring the current cultural and political landscape in AZ. The law does nothing but make government communications be written and spoken in English. That doesn't help this become a better state, nor is it in line with the American history of immigration and diversity. Immigrants will learn English because, in order to prosper socially and financially, they'll have to. We've just made it harder for them to get by in the meantime. Make no mistake - this proposition was pointed at hispanics.

[walterick]

... And in other news, Rumsfeld has resigned as secretary of defense, Dennis Hastert will not seek re-election as the house minority leader, and Montana has gone to the Democrats. It's easily been the best 24 hours for democrats in 12 years

[photophorous]

... And in other news, Rumsfeld has resigned as secretary of defense, Dennis Hastert will not seek re-election as the house minority leader, and Montana has gone to the Democrats. It's easily been the best 24 hours for democrats in 12 years

Christmas came early this year.

[mwfanelli]

In the current political climate of Arizona, the English-language prop was directed at the growing hispanic population and is a result of the frustration with the border security problems.

Regardless of motivation, it is not a bad law.

Voters also passed several other measures which take rights away from illegal immigrants.

Uh... illegal is the key term here. If you commit a crime to get into the country, you can't really expect to be welcomed with open arms and lots of benefits.

Saying that making English the official language has as much to do with French speakers as it does Spanish speakers is ignoring the current cultural and political landscape in AZ. The law does nothing but make government communications be written and spoken in English. That doesn't help this become a better state, nor is it in line with the American history of immigration and diversity.

Making English the official language does nothing to change cultural values or diversity. If the law has nothing to do with government communications, then what is really left? It sounds like a toothless law. As for history, my grandfather was an immigrant. But he entered the country LEGALLY, learned English, and taught his children to be Americans, not visitors.

Immigrants will learn English because, in order to prosper socially and financially, they'll have to. We've just made it harder for them to get by in the meantime. Make no mistake - this proposition was pointed at hispanics.

The non-PC truth of the matter is that most do not learn English. It was pointed at hispanics because of practical concerns: like it or not, Hispanics, mostly Mexican, have a large percentage of illegals and are the major immigration group right now (as were the Irish, Italians, etc. in earlier days). Most people are not anti-Hispanic, just anti-illegal.

[walterick]

Most people are not anti-Hispanic, just anti-illegal.

Then why pass a law which is pointed at Spanish-speakers, and not illegal-immigrants? Seems fishy to me. And in fact, it reeks of racism. Funny, that an English-language law should come right at the peak of the illegal immigration controversy. Was it intended to streamline government action, or it was intended to make whites feel comfortable?

Don't be fooled; it's a symbol of the fear that many whites feel toward the hispanic population these days. It effectively accomplished nothing. The law was hardly worth the cost of the paper it was written on let alone the price of the money raised to promote it. Instead of an effective law, it's one that merely spreads racism around in an attempt to make white people feel like they still have control over "their" country, their language, their values, their jobs. It's a transparent safety blanket which as society evolves will eventually be shown to be the racist rhetoric that is.

Our time, energy and money would be better spent dealing with illegal immigration itself. At least that government action would be worth the ink used to pen it.

[walterick]

Christmas came early this year.

Funny you should say that, I thought the Virginia recount totals were going to be a nice Christmas present. Turns out now, if projections are correct, Allen is willing to concede Virginia to the Dems, giving them razor-thin control of the Senate

Now, in January, the test begins. Will democrats gather themselves on a unified national platform of something to get the job done? Or will the infighting between the moderate conservative democrats elected this year and the traditional democrats already in office split the party? The voters will waste no time in kicking their majority out of congress in 2 years if they can't come up with a collective stance on something and get the job done.

In the mean time, it sure is nice to see happy, positive people running the country again

[mwfanelli]

Then why pass a law which is pointed at Spanish-speakers, and not illegal-immigrants? Seems fishy to me. And in fact, it reeks of racism. Funny, that an English-language law should come right at the peak of the illegal immigration controversy. Was it intended to streamline government action, or it was intended to make whites feel comfortable?

Don't be fooled; it's a symbol of the fear that many whites feel toward the hispanic population these days. It effectively accomplished nothing. The law was hardly worth the cost of the paper it was written on let alone the price of the money raised to promote it. Instead of an effective law, it's one that merely spreads racism around in an attempt to make white people feel like they still have control over "their" country, their language, their values, their jobs. It's a transparent safety blanket which as society evolves will eventually be shown to be the racist rhetoric that is.

Our time, energy and money would be better spent dealing with illegal immigration itself. At least that government action would be worth the ink used to pen it.

Look, English as the "official" language is aimed at ALL non-english speakers. What makes Spanish different than everything else other than sheer numbers? You admit it has no teeth, it is a philosphical choice; it does not have to be practical in any way. As such, t makes no difference whatsoever.

Also, once again, people are very mad about immigrants who enter illegally, thumbing their noses at our laws, and then demanding rights and services, while all the time remaining "proud" Mexicans, not Americans. Why should tax dollars be spent on people here illegally? In-state tuition, free medical care, free education... I wonder how other countries would treat me if I slipped over their borders illegally and demanded my "rights?"

People are afraid? Of course they are! Any terrorist can enter this country easily across our southern border undetected. But don't dare complain about this free access, that gives you the label of "racist." If that doesn't scare you, you are stronger than I am!

As for racism, I would suggest that the gay crowd in this country have it worse, even worse than the illegals that cross the border. That is truly sad. Very few complain about all the specific anti-gay laws that passed on Tuesday.

[walterick]

"Look, English as the "official" language is aimed at ALL non-english speakers."

Interesting, then, that this proposition comes right in the middle of the current immigration debate, rather than in the 100 prior years of Arizona statehood?

Do you really think that this about French, Italian, and Russian speakers as much as it Spanish speakers?

"Why should tax dollars be spent on people here illegally?"

I wasn't talking about illegal immigration, I was talking about legal measures passed here to make white people feel safe.

"Any terrorist can enter this country easily across our southern border undetected."

I wasn't talking about people's fear of terrorists, I was talking about people's fear of Mexicans. People's fear of terrorists is probably better founded than their fear of Hispanics, but that is still a separate debate.

And for the record, I am 100% for building a wall along the entire southern border, as an immediate fix to the leaky border problem. I am not anti-Mexican or anti-immigration, but I am against porous & dangerous borders. I want people here if they want to be here. But I want people here the right way.

A long-term and lasting solution to the border issue, by the way, is going to be a political act between both countries and cultures.

"As for racism, I would suggest that the gay crowd in this country have it worse,"

I might agree! In a time when we should be insuring the rights of all Americans, many states are busy erradicating them. In that, the early 2000's will be viewed in history as backward on sexual preference the way the early 1900's were viewed as backward on gender and race.

[adina]

"Look, English as the "official" language is aimed at ALL non-english speakers."

.

I think the reason it seems directed at Mexicans is because of the fact that you live in the south-west. Damn near close to Mexico.

I know if something similar was passed here, it would seem like it's targeted at those darn Canadians.

[another view]

Look, English as the "official" language is aimed at ALL non-english speakers. What makes Spanish different than everything else other than sheer numbers? You admit it has no teeth, it is a philosphical choice; it does not have to be practical in any way. As such, t makes no difference whatsoever.

Sure, it's "aimed" at all non-English speaking people in this country - but tell me what other languages are thought to be a problem in this country? I know people whose families have immigrated here from Italy who speak Italian often in the company of family and friends (usually when they want to be discreet, me thinks). It was a lot more common to see Italians immigrating to America a hundred years ago, so we should have seen legislation by now if this was the case. French is undeniably "cool". And Spanish is the only other foreign language I hear with any regularity. A coincidence that it comes during the controversy with Mexican (mainly, but other Central American) illegal aliens? I don't think so. It's a thinly veiled way of making their lives more difficult.

Don't get me wrong, if you're illegal then you're illegal. If you're not born here or a naturalized citizen, the story changes. It just looks to me like they're trying to cure the symptoms, that's all.

As far as the southern border goes, how does that differ from the northern, eastern and western? May be more difficult in some areas due to such small obstacles as the ocean, but impossible? Hardly. Private boats coming into Florida from other countries such as The Bahamas voluntarily fly a flag indicating that they need to see a customs agent. Any possibility of something being wrong with this idea?

[mwfanelli]

Sure, it's "aimed" at all non-English speaking people in this country - but tell me what other languages are thought to be a problem in this country? I know people whose families have immigrated here from Italy who speak Italian often in the company of family and friends (usually when they want to be discreet, me thinks). It was a lot more common to see Italians immigrating to America a hundred years ago, so we should have seen legislation by now if this was the case.

History shows clearly that during the large Italian immigration, Italians were persecuted and their culture denigrated. It happens with every mass immigration. This time around, it's Mexico and Central America. But the other fact that can not be ignored is that there has never been such a swarm of illegal immigrants in our history. Different times result in different measures.

Don't get me wrong, if you're illegal then you're illegal. If you're not born here or a naturalized citizen, the story changes. It just looks to me like they're trying to cure the symptoms, that's all.

Curing the symptoms is all the states can do. The constitution makes protecting the borders a federal responsability that, up until now, has been ignored. A bigfence? Come on now, that's the best solution they could come up with?

As far as the southern border goes, how does that differ from the northern, eastern and western? May be more difficult in some areas due to such small obstacles as the ocean, but impossible?

LOL! Yep, lots of immigrants sneaking into the US by way of small boats across the Atlantic and Pacific oceans! Come on now, people from other countries rarely sneak in. They wait for years under quota systems while our southern border is completely pourous. That gets people steamed and annoyed. Even immigrating illegal Cubans (illegal until they set foot on American ground, talk about hypocracy) get bad press outside the Cuban community.

Legal immigrants are not the problem. We have lots of hispanic students even here in Maryland at our school. There are no problems, no one is calling for measures against them. We even have a few students from the Middle East, again, no problems. Only illegals causes arguments and reactions.

We have to decide what kind of country we want to be. Do we let immigration continue willy-nilly? Do we turn our backs on the illegals flooding our country? Do we institute an open door policy for all takers? Those people in Arizona are not aiming at the legal hispanic community (at least, not the vast majority). They are reacting, perhaps emotionally, to a flood of illegals they can not stop.

[another view]

History shows clearly that during the large Italian immigration, Italians were persecuted and their culture denigrated. It happens with every mass immigration. This time around, it's Mexico and Central America. But the other fact that can not be ignored is that there has never been such a swarm of illegal immigrants in our history. Different times result in different measures.

I realize that, and we had it in for the Irish to an even greater extent. We didn't (AFAIK) try to pass any laws for a national language at that time, and for that reason. "Different times result in different measures" but I think this is a whole 'nother level.

I agree with some of your other points - no problem with legal immigrants. I didn't say otherwise and hope you didn't take it that way (or anybody else). Many naturalized citizens know more about our country than those of us who were simply born here. With the amount of work that they go thru to become citizens, they have to really want to be here. If they're willing to work that hard to become citizens, then they'll probably work very hard at being productive members of society.

My point about the other borders was that there is always a potential. The southern border obviously sees the highest number of problems and probably the highest number of people. Makes a better news story, anyway (other than the story about northern Washinton a few years ago). There is almost voluntary compliance with other borders and since they don't really get any press it's maybe an easier solution for someone bent on causing problems. Barely seaworthy vessels from Cuba and Haiti are pretty easy to spot but lots of private boats come in and out of the harbors of southern Florida. The small flag that they fly is the only way of knowing (without big brother watching everyone) where they've been. I don't stay up at night worrying about that or paddling a canoe from northern Minnesota into Canada (or vice-versa). It's not likely that something would happen. But is it possible? On 9/10/01, the FAA thought that box cutters were safe. So yeah, maybe it's possible.

[walterick]

Those people in Arizona are not aiming at the legal hispanic community (at least, not the vast majority). They are reacting, perhaps emotionally, to a flood of illegals they can not stop.

You really think a law passed to make English the official language is pointed at illegal immigrants? How does it know the difference?

Seems to me that a completely legal, freedom-loving, flag-waiving Mexican-American still learning the English language is going to be hindered by this law. Therefore, it effectively makes life harder for Americans.

Just not the white ones.

And yes, this legislation came in part as a result of the fear and frustration at illegal aliens coming across the border. That's why the timing with the current illegal immigration debate is so relavent. But what in the world is passing this law going to do to stop illegal immigration?! Nothing, and all it does it make things a little bit harder for the ones who are here legally.

It was written in bad spirit, accomplishes nothing, hinders Americans, and sends the quiet message that "some racism is okay."

[mwfanelli]

Well, the difference between us is pretty small. We both agree that making English the official language is pretty useless in practical terms. Where we disagree is in the spirit of the bill that is being conveyed. You see it as promoting "racism is OK" whereas I see it as a futile attempt by voters to register their anger with illegals. Look at Quebec, was the French first movement and laws racist?

I truly believe that if the problem was on our northern border instead, the cry would be every bit as loud. It would not take the form of English as an official language but some other measure aimed at illeagls. Gee, I had a girlfriend in college (zillions of years ago) who grew up in Caribou, Maine on the Canadian border and had an intense dislike of French Canadians! It is all relative, not a general move towards racism.

[JSPhoto]

How is making English the official language going to hurt Americans? If anything it will help. I hate going to the gas station and finding the Indian from India can't speak English or give correct change. I hate going anywhere and have to stand in line for 20 minutes because the family in front of me wants the cashier to explain how something works to Mexicans who do not know the language!
I have neighbors who are Mexican and the parents can't speak any English, the kids barely do, they are legally in the Us but refuse to learn the language which is wrong.
Try to get a cab in Indy, you never know what language the driver knows.
You want to live here, fine, learn the language or go back to where you came from.
France has a law that makes it mandatory to learn the language in a certain amout of time or you get the boot out of the country, it's high time the US does the same.

These language barriers are costing school districts millions of dollars because they have to hire teachers that can deal with the students who don't speak the language. One school has 10 students that don't speak English and they had to hire 4 teachers to deal with those 10 kids! thats obsurd, and a waste of valuble resources that should be used elsewhere.
Police departments are having to hire bilingual officers to deal with non-English speaking citizens, again, a needless waste of tax dollars
Finally business is having to hire bilingual workers to deal with both customers and employees who can't speak English. And they have to add signs and labeling in multiple laguages. More wasted money and loss of profits.
I did some work recently for a company that hires Mexicans to do certain jobs and they can't speak English. The job had to redone three times because they couldn't understand you don't bury the wires in the drywall. It cost thousands of dollars to fix the mistakes, and I lost money as well.
An Indian (from India) couldn't speak English, a woman went into the gas station to ask for help, told the guy to call 911 as she had been shot at and her husband or boyfriend was shot. He died because the guy didn't understand her and it took 25 minutes to get police and an ambulance to help them.
Learn the language or get out of here!

JS

[Intrepid Berkeley Explorer]

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Poem by Emma Lazarus inscribed in bronze
at the base of the Statue of Liberty, New York, 1903


The Intrepid Berkeley Explorer,
immigrant from Canada,
son of immigrants from Germany and Lithuania,
one family that joined our Nation of Immigrants

[Greg McCary]

I think buiding a fence is a joke. I heard on the news several weeks ago ranchers were placeing ladders at thier fences to kept immigrants from cutting, and destroying them. Keeping immigrants out could done if the goverment would penalize the employers that basically expolite them. That's right immigrants are paid low wages and treated poorly by the most part. The simple truth is that big goverment wants them here because there low wages and hard work keeps the cost of living down for us all. I don't mind anyone being in this country as long as they are treated as equals across the board. One of me best friends is not legal yet, But he works two jobs pays taxes and follows the rules. He is the smartest computer man you will ever meet. His brother is also here and owns his own auto garage and is a top notch mechanic. They have been trying to get thier citizenship for about 10 years now. If businesses that hired immigrants were forced to obey the law the problem would clear itself up.
Greg