Who's the terrorist?

[schrackman]

From Mr. Baldwin's blog on the Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-b..._b_15875.html:

Cheney is a terrorist. He terrorizes our enemies abroad and innocent citizens here at home indiscriminately.

From tmz.com:

http://www.tmz.com/2007/04/19/alec-b...e-to-daughter/

I guess terrorizing our enemies abroad is a bad thing, but hey, it's okay to terrorize one's child. Anybody else find this disturbing?

[adina]

No, not disturbing at all. If you've read any of this history of his divorce and the custody issues there has been, something like this was bound to happen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he should get parent of the year or anything. The guy has anger issues, has had a history of anger issues. I'd imagine that a civil divorce and custody arrangement is stressful, and his has been any anything but civil. Add media speculation and high profile court hearings, and it's not suprising he lashed out.

Every parent says things they regret, it just isn't caught on tape for the rest of us. Granted I've never gone as far as that, but I've said things I wish I hadn't when I was angry.

[adina]

One other thing....if he left this message on the kids voice mail, how did the media get it? Either the kid, the mom, or the mom's people sent it to the media. Why would they do that? How is that a good decision based on what's best for the kid?

There are no innocent parties here. It's a kid being used as a pawn, and the parents doing whatever it takes to make the other look bad.

[mwfanelli]

From Mr. Baldwin's blog on the Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-b..._b_15875.html:

Cheney is a terrorist. He terrorizes our enemies abroad and innocent citizens here at home indiscriminately.

From tmz.com:

http://www.tmz.com/2007/04/19/alec-b...e-to-daughter/

I guess terrorizing our enemies abroad is a bad thing, but hey, it's okay to terrorize one's child. Anybody else find this disturbing?

First, domestic spying, torture of prisoners, allowing American rapists and murderers (7 out of 14 so far) in Iraq go free is hardly equivalent to yelling at your child. This administration has done more than any other force in the world to spread terrorism against America.

That being said, regardless of "issues", Baldwin should be banned from seeing or contacting his child. Anyone who goes off on on a child like has more troubles than a court can fix. Let him get mental help before he loses his temper in a worse way.

As for releasing the tapes to the media, yeah that's bad. But if you leave a taped message on a machine, accessible to a "sworn enemy", what do you expect?

[schrackman]

First, domestic spying, torture of prisoners, allowing American rapists and murderers (7 out of 14 so far) in Iraq go free is hardly equivalent to yelling at your child.

Perhaps, but try telling that to a 12-year old whose father is calling her a thoughtless little pig. But even I think you see that based upon the rest of your response.

This administration has done more than any other force in the world to spread terrorism against America.

When we start sawing off heads or sending our brothers and sisters and children as suicide bombers, I'm sure I'll agree with you in the above statement. But I'm curious to know what method you consider acceptable to extract information from detainees if not by the relatively "milder" methods the military's employed thus far?

[schrackman]

No, not disturbing at all.

Adina, did you mean "not surprising"? If so, I'm not surprised myself but on the same token I can't imagine calling one's child a thoughtless little pig. I'm sure we've all regretted our parenting skills at one time or another, but there's a line between making a mistake and just being cruel and vindictive. That's what I meant by disturbing.

[mwfanelli]

When we start sawing off heads or sending our brothers and sisters and children as suicide bombers, I'm sure I'll agree with you in the above statement. But I'm curious to know what method you consider acceptable to extract information from detainees if not by the relatively "milder" methods the military's employed thus far?

Every study ever done shows that torture does not yield good information. All it does is provide the torturers with some sadistic fun and graetly increase the anger towards us.. It would be funny if not so sad that the administration is fighting aginst a bill in Congress that would require a listing of all of our secret prisons around the world. The response by the administration was basically "Letting you know where these prisons that don't exist are located would damage US security."

What about the 14 soldiers charged with rape and murder in Iraq? Seven admitted to the crimes and were given full immunity to testify against the other seven. If it were your family who was treated so badly, would you hate Americans? If it happened in your neighboorhood? Your state? This callous disregard for the rights of civilians is a continuing theme in this administration.

Iraq was about as free from terrorism of any country in the region. Saddam's ego wouldn't allow other charismatic people to get a foothold. We eliminated him, based on massive lies about WMDs, and now the country is a major terrorist stronghold with a civil war. Of course, now the story has changed to "freeing the people of Iraq from tyranny." Gee, when are we going into Darfur which is worse than anything Iraq has ever seen? When will attack the real threats such as Syria, Iran, and North Korea? The world sees this hypocracy and gets disgusted with America and wants to strike back. How many are willing to go along with America's bizarre and unstable new policies and how many enter the fight against them?

Does this mean that terrorism does not exist? Of course not. Although it is not politically correct to say so, today Islam is a terrorist organization just as Chritianity was a long time ago. Today it is bombs to blow up the infidels, yesterday it was stunning levels of torture with Christians "testing for faith."

America has severely weakened itself with the massive amounts of money and lives being expended in Iraq. We are unable, and the terrorists know it, to do anything else in the world to fight them off. All sorts of people freely stream over the border without control while Bush asks for amnesty. How many are terrorists entering the country through our open back door? We have severely eroded basic freedoms for Americans, the administration stomps all over the Bill of Rights, abuses the onerous Patriot Act, spends more time spying on Americans than on terrorists. If I were a terrorist, I'd be overjoyed at the conversion of America from a land of freedom to one of a near police state. Yet with all this abusive power, a student clearly identified as an unstable maniac can still legally buy two guns and slaughter 32 people.

The truth that most people now realize is that Bush is the dumbest president in American history. He has stumbled and bumbled his way through his adminsitration and has made some of the worst decisions ever seen. The Republican party let the country down by rubbing stamping every bone-headed move and slurping away at the nether regions of Bush. We are in much more danger now that we were before.

I'd better stop now before I get really mad!

As for Baldwin, he deserves what he gets. He also needs, and should get, the psychological help hs needs. Hey, like all the other Hollywood clowns, he can just check into "rehab" to renounce his sins! Stop me if you've heard this one:, Baldwin, Richards, Imus, and Gibson walk up to a rehab counter...

[photophorous]

Ray, I realize you probably didn't intend for it to come across this way, but comparing one family's drama to the war in Iraq is the most disturbing thing about this thread.

The guy deserves to get some crap for this, but so does who ever leaked the tape to the media, which is likely to do more damage to that little girl than the fact that he said what he said. What we should be asking is "Why is this news?" We didn't need to know about it, but our obsession with celebrities creates a market for this kind of thing. Whatever repercussions come to Alec, his daughter will suffer far more. All because we (media consumers) just have to know what celebrities are doing at home. It makes us feel better to know their lives are screwed up just like it makes us feel better to watch people make fools of themselves on American Idol. Am I the only one who thinks this fascination with other people's problems is screwed up? Why do we care what he thinks of the vice president either? He's not a politician. He's professionally trained at playing make believe. I prefer to keep my involvement with him at a professional level. When he runs for office in my district or invites my kid to his daughters birthday party, then I'll worry about something other than the next episode of 30 Rock.

Paul

[schrackman]

Michael, I appreciate your commentary but that did nothing to answer my question. :-(

I am asking what methods you think could be used to better extract information from detainees than what has been utilized thus far?

Oh, and not to go off on a tangent but one thing needs rectifying in your post:

Does this mean that terrorism does not exist? Of course not. Although it is not politically correct to say so, today Islam is a terrorist organization just as Chritianity was a long time ago. Today it is bombs to blow up the infidels, yesterday it was stunning levels of torture with Christians "testing for faith."

It would be far more accurate to replace "Christianity" here with "Roman Catholcism" or even the "Orthodox Church." The reason is there were plenty of other kinds of Christian churches in existence during the dark ages who did not persecute or believe in persecuting but were even persecuted by the above mentioned denominations.

[adina]

Adina, did you mean "not surprising"? If so, I'm not surprised myself but on the same token I can't imagine calling one's child a thoughtless little pig. I'm sure we've all regretted our parenting skills at one time or another, but there's a line between making a mistake and just being cruel and vindictive. That's what I meant by disturbing.

No, I meant not disturbing. You asked who's the terrorist, and I'm not worried about him at all.

Let me say again, I think this is way out of line and off the deep end. The guy needs help. He has anger issues, has had anger issues for as long as I remember reading about him.

However, different familes have different dynamics. For some, name calling is a natural response. It's not the right response, but I've heard worse while I was out shopping.

The difference is whether or not you know your actions are wrong, and take the steps to correct them, as opposed to thinking everything is just fine.

So yes, it's disturbing that some people feel this is an appropriate reaction to being pushed by your child, but do I find it disturbing that it happens to be Alec Baldwin? Nope, I don't. Like I said, I've heard worse while out shopping.

I'm not saying that it's right, no matter how much your child pushes, you are the adult and the one who should be in control. But what disturbs me is not that it happened, because it does happen, all the time. What disturbs me is that some people think there's nothing wrong with it.

[mwfanelli]

Michael, I appreciate your commentary but that did nothing to answer my question. :-(

I am asking what methods you think could be used to better extract information from detainees than what has been utilized thus far?

Religious fanatics do not give up information under any means. When their eternal soul is in danger, they are more than willing to die or, better yet, give up false information to mislead the infidels. Even non-fanatics are more likely to give up fake information to stop the pain. The best you can hope for is that those who are not so fanatic will make deals. People do things when they have something tangible to gain: freedom, money, power, etc. Think about your kids, punishment is much less effective than providing rewards for good behavior.

Part of what made the US a land of freedom is that we gave up these primitive techniques, prohibited "cruel and unusual punishment" that was common in Europe in the 1700s. Bush has destroyed these ideals using the dubious "security over freedom" nonsense and saying that non-Americans are fair game. What is next, kidnapping and beheading our enemies? Don't laugh, torture would have seemed outrageous not that many years ago..
.

It would be far more accurate to replace "Christianity" here with "Roman Catholcism" or even the "Orthodox Church." The reason is there were plenty of other kinds of Christian churches in existence during the dark ages who did not persecute or believe in persecuting but were even persecuted by the above mentioned denominations.

I'm not sure "plenty" is a good description but OK, the largest western church at its time, Catholic in all its forms. Martin Luther appeared well after the Crusades and the major portion of the Inquisition, so protestants weren't even around yet.

[big baldo]

Am I the only one who thinks this fascination with other people's problems is screwed up?

No, your not! I find that this whole concept is so counterproductive. Look at the whole Court Tv channel. This is an entire station devoted to glorifying other peoples problems.Imagine you have to go to court for something and when you get there, you find 50 cameras pointed at you. Next thing your past is being brought up and broadcast all over.
Lets look at the VT shooter.NBC thinks its more important to get the ratings than worry about repercussions. There are over 300,000,000 people in the US and I'll bet that there is at least one who can"identify" with this guy. Just like he "identified" with the Colombine shooters.
SHAME ON NBC!!

schadenfreude \SHOD-n-froy-duh\, noun:
A malicious satisfaction obtained from the misfortunes of others.

People want to hang Alec Baldwin. Why is it anybodys business!!!? He is only allowed to call at certain times, he called two or three time before with no answer and was extremely frusterated. Ya, it was over the top, but who am I to judge this guy. How it ends up on Nancy Grace and Catherine Crier is beyond me.Get some family counseling and move on!
Our society seems to be going the direction of wanting to blame someone for everything.
We seem to need to see other people screwing up to make us feel better about ourselves.

The truth that most people now realize is that Bush is the dumbest president in American history. He has stumbled and bumbled his way through his adminsitration and has made some of the worst decisions ever seen. The Republican party let the country down by rubbing stamping every bone-headed move and slurping away at the nether regions of Bush. We are in much more danger now that we were before.

Well said!!:thumbsup:

Although it is not politically correct to say so, today Islam is a terrorist organization just as Chritianity was a long time ago. Today it is bombs to blow up the infidels, yesterday it was stunning levels of torture with Christians "testing for faith."

Why do you separate yourself from Catholics but then lump all of Islam into a "terrorist org." This seems kind of hypocritical. Yes, we all know that there are some muslim extremists who spew and teach pure evil. But there is also pure evil that exists "in the name of Jesus".

[schrackman]

Hi Michael,

Religious fanatics do not give up information under any means. When their eternal soul is in danger, they are more than willing to die or, better yet, give up false information to mislead the infidels. Even non-fanatics are more likely to give up fake information to stop the pain. The best you can hope for is that those who are not so fanatic will make deals. People do things when they have something tangible to gain: freedom, money, power, etc. Think about your kids, punishment is much less effective than providing rewards for good behavior.

This seems to contradict what you stated previously:

What about the 14 soldiers charged with rape and murder in Iraq? Seven admitted to the crimes and were given full immunity to testify against the other seven.

So if I understand you correctly, it's an outrage to promise 14 (er...correction, 7) of our own soldiers immunity (their freedom) in exchange for divulging information, but it's entirely appropriate to reward our enemies for doing the same?

How does one expect to win a war in which he believes his enemies are to be given better consideration than his own troops? Seems to me that mentality would be self-defeating for any army.

Part of what made the US a land of freedom is that we gave up these primitive techniques, prohibited "cruel and unusual punishment" that was common in Europe in the 1700s. Bush has destroyed these ideals using the dubious "security over freedom" nonsense and saying that non-Americans are fair game. What is next, kidnapping and beheading our enemies? Don't laugh, torture would have seemed outrageous not that many years ago.

Michael, the doing away of "cruel and unusual punishment" early on in American history pertained to how American citizens are to be treated by their own government, not how enemy combatants are to be treated during a time of war.

I'm not sure "plenty" is a good description but OK, the largest western church at its time, Catholic in all its forms. Martin Luther appeared well after the Crusades and the major portion of the Inquisition, so protestants weren't even around yet.

Yes, there were "plenty" of other churches back then. They just didn't share the limelight of history because they weren't united with the powers of the state as were Roman Catholicism or the Orthodox Church. Rather, they were persecuted as heretics by the above mentioned denominations because they opposed their pernicious teachings and practices. Church bodies such as the Bogomils, Paulicians, Albigenses and Waldenses, were very numerous throughout all Europe (before persecution, that is), and they paid the price for labeling these state churches as false representatives of the Christian religion. For example, in the Noble Lesson (AD 1100), we find the Waldenses throwing in a small polemic against the Catholic Church:

But as for the persecutors we need not so much wonder, for, they had not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, like those who now seek occasion to persecute the saints, which men ought to be Christians, but appear not to be such, and in this they are to be blamed, for that they persecute and imprison the good; for, it is not found anywhere, that the saints persecuted or imprisoned any. Now after the Apostles, were certain teachers, who taught the way of Jesus Christ our Savior. And these are found even at this present day, but they are known to very few, who have a great desire to teach the way of Jesus Christ, but they are so persecuted, that they are able to do but little. So much are the false Christians blinded with error, and more than the rest that they are pastors, for they persecute and hate those that are better than themselves, and let live quietly those who are false deceivers. But by this we may know that they are not good pastors, for they love not the sheep, but only for their fleeces. The Scripture saith, and it is evident, that if any man love those who are good, he must needs love God, and Jesus Christ. Such an one will neither commit adultery, nor kill; he will neither defraud his neighbor, nor avenge himself of his enemies. Now such an one is termed a Waldensian, and worthy to be punished. (The History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piemont, Samuel Morland, pp. 113-114)

So that is why I said it would be more accurate for you to specify the denominations who persecuted and tortured rather than applying these things to Christianity in general, because true Christianity does not teach that Christians, or the Church, is to coerce by force or wage war upon anyone in an effort to "convert" people to Christ. That is just contrary to what Jesus taught.

[MrTwister]

Human is terrorist of the nature.