What the Bleep?

[walterick]

Anyone seen this one?

http://www.whatthebleep.com/

[walterick]

FANTASTIC film. We just saw it last night in a art film theater. It is absolutely mind-changing.

EVERYONE must go rent this movie! Adina, Steve, this means you.

Rick

[adina]

Seeing as I'll be spending some quality time with myself in the near future, I just may check it out.

The website didn't give me a lot of info (at least the little bit that I looked at). What's the deal with this?

[walterick]

An extended version of What the Bleep is seeing a limited realease in small theaters now. The original was released in 2004.

What the Bleep addresses our notion of "what is reality?" It deals with the subatomic levels of reality and with quantum mechanics and physics in exloring the "true" nature of reality. When scientists peer into the atom deep enough, they find that there is a level of reality in which all classical physics ceases to exist. And a new, "quantum" realm begins. At this quantum realm, all is connected. Better yet, all is one. Subatomic particles leap into and out of existence, travel backward in time, even exist in two places at the same time. Conclusions are drawn between real life and this scientific uncovering. What does this mean to our understanding of reality? Of time, and space? If at the most basic level of life and our being, there are appears to be no time? And the laws of physics are broken seemingly at will?

Our mind has the capacity to create reality as it sees fit. This "world of infinite possibilities" that exists smaller than the atom can be used consciously to affect our world. Experiments are cited that show how deep meditators are able to raise the ph of water 1 ph by simply setting the intent to do so. Machines that are designed to randomly generate numbers mathematically are influenced by people "wishing" that the numbers be scewed a certain way. A Buddhist Monk blesses a cup of water and when it is frozen it creates a dramatically more beauitful ice crystal than water from the same source that is cursed at.

Where science and religion were once one, they split apart in classical times. Religion covered the unseen, science the seen. These differences are breaking apart as science and religion (spirituality) are becoming one, once again. The most sacred spiritual truth "We are all One" is now being demonstrated scientifically and there is a whole body of scientific evidence showing that this is true. The greatest falacy affecting the human race is that we are "separate." When in fact we are "One."

This is the best I could do in a short time Check it out, I'm sure you'll like it ;)

Rick

[mwfanelli]

Good grief, what a mess. None of what is stated here, or obviously in the film, has any basis in reality. The religious and philosophers are constantly looking for "proof" in science not realizing that faith can not be proven. Scientists who should know better get all gooey eyed and launch off on absurd and ridiculous flights of spiritual fancy. Lets set some of this straight.

What the Bleep addresses our notion of "what is reality?" It deals with the subatomic levels of reality and with quantum mechanics and physics in exloring the "true" nature of reality.

Yikes! Science is very limited in what it does. Science does not ask why, even in quantum physics. Science deals with what is there, not why it's there. That's the entire basis of the scientific method. For example, science defines and explains how inertia works. Science never asks why matter has inertia.

When scientists peer into the atom deep enough, they find that there is a level of reality in which all classical physics ceases to exist.

Not true. Classical physics is the level above quantum physics. It is still there! Classical physics got extended, not replaced. Quantum mechanics on the small end, relativity on the large end. In other cases, such as conservation of energy, things work in all scales.

And a new, "quantum" realm begins. At this quantum realm, all is connected. Better yet, all is one. Subatomic particles leap into and out of existence, travel backward in time, even exist in two places at the same time. Conclusions are drawn between real life and this scientific uncovering.

Ouch! This is just waxing poetic from the point of view of people who have never studied quantum mechanics or have become lost in a spiritual bog. Quantum mechanics specifically, and physics in general, goes well beyond the other sciences. Quantum mechanics deals with probabilities and uncertainties. These things seem odd to us because they require that we go well beyond what our limited three dimensional brains can visualize. You must depend upon the mathematics and the experiments. Many people can't make that leap and turn the "strange" world of QM into some spiritual nonsense.

What does this mean to our understanding of reality? Of time, and space? If at the most basic level of life and our being, there are appears to be no time? And the laws of physics are broken seemingly at will?

Laws of physics are not being broken! Time does not disappear! Good grief, QM professors are having heart attacks! You can design a bridge using QM even though it might take years and years of intense calculations. In the end, you will have the same answers as classical mechanics. You can send a rocket into space using classical physics or relativity but, in the end, you get the same answers. Science does not destroy the past, it expands upon it. QM works at a very small scale. Its classical physics with a larger space to work in.

Our mind has the capacity to create reality as it sees fit.

That's why we have the scientific method at all levels of physics.

This "world of infinite possibilities" that exists smaller than the atom can be used consciously to affect our world. Experiments are cited that show how deep meditators are able to raise the ph of water 1 ph by simply setting the intent to do so.

These are all "anecdotal evidence." There has never been a bonafide scientific experiment that shoes this. pH is a macroscopic number, the result of an excess of H or OH molecules. It has absolutely nothing to do with the subatomic.

Machines that are designed to randomly generate numbers mathematically are influenced by people "wishing" that the numbers be scewed a certain way. A Buddhist Monk blesses a cup of water and when it is frozen it creates a dramatically more beauitful ice crystal than water from the same source that is cursed at.

Again, no scientific experiment has ever proved this. It is all based on "look what I saw."

Where science and religion were once one, they split apart in classical times. Religion covered the unseen, science the seen.

They were "one" only because science is relatively recent. The first astonomers were astrologers trying to get their charts right. Aristotle believed he could describe nature just by looking at it (and was wrong on almost all counts for over 2000 years!).

Science describes how things work. Religion and philosophy describe why things work. They were never same thing.

These differences are breaking apart as science and religion (spirituality) are becoming one, once again.

Not unless you completely redeine science and dump the scientific method. This attitude is what causes all the silly nonsense about teaching intelligent design in science classes. Never were the same, never will be the same. They look at completely different things.

The most sacred spiritual truth "We are all One" is now being demonstrated scientifically and there is a whole body of scientific evidence showing that this is true.

There is no such scientific evidence.

This was not meant to be cruel to anyone but this type of nonsense is spreading more and more as education continues to fail in the US. Science is not aribitrary, it is not philosophy, it is not religion, its not a matter of opinion. This is one reason science comes up with answers while the questions of philosophy and religion are no different than they were since the cave man.

[walterick]

See there? All kinds of controversy brewing over this one Got to go rent it to see why! ;)

[mwfanelli]

See there? All kinds of controversy brewing over this one Got to go rent it to see why! ;)

I went over to the link before writing the message above. I have seen this nonsense in so many other places. Late night radio is filled with people who claim this sort of silliness. I took more than one quantum mechanics course as an undergraduate and graduate student in physics. There is nothing spiritual there, there is nothing mysterious. It is hardcore science and mathematics, pure and simple.

Perhaps you are talking about the popular String Theory. String theory is not science either! You can not yet apply the scientific method to it. Yeah, lots of brilliant physicists are working on it but that in itself does not create science. String theory is where you get your 11 space dimensions, "sheets" of existence, parallel universes, etc. But that is all conjecture and wishful thinking. Until you can apply the scientific method, it is just philosophy.

Yeah, I get overheated when people start misusing science. But I truly believe that it is important for everyone to understand what science really is.

[walterick]

Michael, I'll make a deal with you.

You go rent the movie, and give me your honest appraisal of what the "scientists" have to say in it. I'll go try to cite the studies and experiments that I spoke about in my original post. And we'll have a conversation

The reason I cannot argue with you right now is I don't have the raw data - or even the interpreted data - in front of me right now. Could I get it? Yeah, but it'll take some research. I'll see what I can find. I ask: will you see the movie? Not because I am trying to convert you. I just would like to see how a scientist responds to the film.

Thanks,
Rick

[ken1953]

SHEESH! I'm totally lost. hehe...What did you say??? I never even heard of the movie until you guys brought it up...hehe...I guess I need to pull my head out the sand...hehe...But just for the sake of argument...you're all wrong...the entire universe and everything and everyone in it are just figments of a crazy mans imagination and when he comes back to reality..........WE ALL DISAPPEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh...well...just a thought!!!!!!!!! hehehehehehehe
Ken

[dashop]

Great film. Thanks for bringing my attention to it.
______________________
Courtney
sony digital cameras

[walterick]

Ken...

All you need to remember is the answer is 42 ;)

I had never heard of the movie either until it came up in a discussion in my counseling skills course. Don't ask me how it came up, I cannot remember for the life of me...

Anyway, so it suddenly appeared the next day in a theater in Tempe so I knew we had to check it out.

If you wanna check out an alternative theory to life, give it a look!

Oh, and make sure we don't wake the sleeping man who is dreaming all this... LOL

Rick

[walterick]

You're welcome. Glad you enjoyed it.

[Asylum Steve]

EVERYONE must go rent this movie! Adina, Steve, this means you...

Maybe because of how I was raised, I've always had an interesting blend of left-brain, right-brain perceptions. You know, the mix of math & science with art & creativity. I love both...

Because of that, I've always been a believer in the "romance" of math and science. That there is a strong connection between spirituality and empirical discovery and knowledge. IMO, the two compliment each other and are not mutualy exclusive.

I watched the extended video clip of the film on the web site, and I think I'd really like it.

BTW, it's for this very reason that I'm a big fan of Carl Sagan. The book and film Contact are simply amazing, and bring these issues to light in a very facinating way...

[mwfanelli]

Michael, I'll make a deal with you.

You go rent the movie, and give me your honest appraisal of what the "scientists" have to say in it. I'll go try to cite the studies and experiments that I spoke about in my original post. And we'll have a conversation

Did you look up the credentials of these scientists? I did. Not one of them has done any bonafide research in their field. Some are big in selling books and recordings about the supernatural, others write popular articles about the "philosophy and miracle" of science. Having a PhD doesn't mean that someone is well trained. While working at Brookhaven National Labs I met a lot of PhDs who were no brighter than dodo birds!

Let's see, should I watch Aryan Nation films to see what race relations are really about? Should I watch a movie about the hollow earth before jumping to conclusions? How about Star Wars to describe alien life in the universe? I have insomnia quite a lot and get to listen to late night radio. There is a long list of "scientists" who come on shows such as Coast to Coast spreading the word about the lastest scientific "discoveries." It is laughable and sometimes frustrating to hear how even the simple physical concepts are misunderstood.

You are again assuming that science is a matter of opinion, something you can be "convinced of." This is what these scientists are doing as well. That is NOT what science is! Again, that is NOT what science is! Science is a path to knowledge that follows the scientific method, generally attributed to Francis Bacon is the late 1500s. It took a very long time before his ideas were solidified into what science is today.

I have nothing against philosophy, religion, or the wild flight of someone's mind into high realms of fancy. But people often attach the label "science" to these things to try and give their musings credibility. They use lots of big words that lack substance when strung together in fancy sounding sentences. These things do not really do anything.

If the movie comes around, I might see it. But I bet I'll walk out in discgst before its over. Please, everyone! Make very sure you understand what science is before tossing it out there to defend philosophy.

[mwfanelli]

Contact[/I] are simply amazing, and bring these issues to light in a very facinating way...

"Contact" is FICTION, not science. Sagan was always very careful to separate real science from his philosophical non-scientific musings.

[walterick]

Okay then...

I am still going to do my best to present you with science that supports the theory that, for instance, the mind can alter the material world through intention.

Just give me, uh, a little time to do that

Thanks for your responses.

[mwfanelli]

Okay then...

I am still going to do my best to present you with science that supports the theory that, for instance, the mind can alter the material world through intention.

Just give me, uh, a little time to do that

Thanks for your responses.

Please note that I do believe that the mind is capable of things we can yet only get glimpses of. What we know through science is an insignificant portion of what is unknown. Science doesn't cover very much in the scheme of things but what it does cover is well documented, logically followed, and constantly experimented with. Just last year we finally had the technology to test another prediction of General Relativity. The theory was proven correct again!

I am looking forward to seeing what you dig up!

mike

[walterick]

This quote popped up on my Google RSS feed the other day. Thought it seemed pertinent (note Micheal: this is not an attack on science! )

"God runs electromagnetics by wave theory on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and the Devil runs them by quantum theory on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday."
Sir William Bragg

[walterick]

I ran across an interesting study in my Abnormal Psychology textbook today which didn't give many answers but still layed out an interesting phenomenon. I'll cite the exact information later but the gist of it was: The study showed that people with a positive attitude toward life and who were happy (don't know how they measured happiness here) lived an average of 7 years longer than the general population. This result was extremely statistically significant and outweighed the effects of smoking, diet, and other well-known variables on the length of life.

I would interpret these findings by saying "Attitude (and therefore thought patterns) in someway manifest better health and longer life in some individuals." I would point to this study as an example of the mind affecting the physical body.

It's a reach to use it to support my "The mind can change reality through intention" hypothesis, but it's a start.

Okay Michael, fire away

[walterick]

I loved the movie Contact. It was very inspiring to me.

I also love Sagan's "Cosmos" video set. I drool over it every time it comes on PBS. Which isn't very often anymore. I also love Stephen Hawking that man is a genius!

I think you'll like the film. Though some of the conclusions drawn from the science are questionable (that was for you Michael!) I think you'll find it very appealing to both the left the right hemispheres. The first half was pretty left-brained, the second half was more right. I'm sure there's something in there for everyone.

Let me know what you think if you get the chance to see it!

Rick

[mwfanelli]

I ran across an interesting study in my Abnormal Psychology textbook today which didn't give many answers but still layed out an interesting phenomenon. I'll cite the exact information later but the gist of it was: The study showed that people with a positive attitude toward life and who were happy (don't know how they measured happiness here) lived an average of 7 years longer than the general population. This result was extremely statistically significant and outweighed the effects of smoking, diet, and other well-known variables on the length of life.

I would interpret these findings by saying "Attitude (and therefore thought patterns) in someway manifest better health and longer life in some individuals." I would point to this study as an example of the mind affecting the physical body.

It's a reach to use it to support my "The mind can change reality through intention" hypothesis, but it's a start.

Okay Michael, fire away

Yes, the wonderful world of personal interpretations! :-) This is called a clinical study. I looked at lots of these studies during my years working for drug companies. This evidence may work well in a legal trial, for example, but is not yet science.

Medicine, unfortunately, is more art than science. Life is much more complex than a physicists world! A scientific study would, for example:

1. See the possibility that there is a mind/body connection.

2. Create a hypothesis. for example: "The mind can actively control instantaneous blood pressure."

3. Create "clinical "studies that try to prove or disprove the hypothesis.

Now comes real science:

4. If the hypothesis seems to be true, come up with a scientific theory as to what is actually happening. A scientific theory not only explains what is seen and already known but also predicts things that have not been seen or observed yet.

5. Experiments based on the theory are carried out, checking its predictions while maintaining the agreement with known facts. Other experiments are conducted that severely limit the variables, changing one at a time whenever possible and seeing what happens.

6. Return to the theory and tweak it if experiments are showing something else. Repeat step 5. This keeps happening until the theory looks solid or fails under the pressure. Eventually, as more is learned, the theory may start to break down (instantly or hundreds of years from now.) A new theory is created that includes the working parts of the old theory but extends it in new ways.

Oh yeah, I forgot this when I first posted this message: you can not use statistics to prove anything! It was never designed to do that and is horribly misused in the soft sciences as well as many times in medicine and biology. To use statistics correctly, you have to understand the actual underlying process.

I have been enjoying this discussion and appreciate the efforts you are making. Be very careful of assigning cause and effect. This is the hardest thing to to do in science and mathematics but so many people fall into the trap of throwing it around as if its obvious.

[walterick]

I haven't forgotten about this. Just haven't had any time to spend in my supernatural lab of recent that's all

Here's some more interesting research showing the influence the mind has on the body. This also from my Abnormal Psych textbook, on the intruiging subject of Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly Multiple Personality Disorder):

"Condon, Ogsten, and Pacoe (1969) examined a film about Chris Sizemore, the real-life subject of the book and movie The Three Faces of Eve. They determined that one of the personalities (Eve Black) showed a transient micro-strabismus (divergence in conjugant lateral eye movements) that was not observed in the other personalities. These optical differences have been confirmed by S.D. Miller (1989) who demonstrated that DID subjects had 4.5 times the average number of changes in optical functioning in their alter identities than control subjects who simulated alter personalities. Miller concludes that optical changes, including measures of visual acuity, manifest refraction, and eye muscle balance, would be difficult to fake."

Again, very interesting, the power of the mind!