Those wacky shuttle folks at NASA are at it again...

[Asylum Steve]

Well, not sure how much attention this is getting around the country, but in Central FLA all eyes are once again on the space shuttle, and NASA's ongoing attempt at getting it safetly airborne again. It would almost be comical if the stakes weren't so high...

As has been the case in recent years, this latest launch is swirling with controversy, primarily because of problems with the craft's foam insulation, and whether it endangers the ship (and crew) if pieces of it were to break off during take-off.

This will mark only the second shuttle launch since the Columbia disaster in 2003, and it's not clear whether they have solved the problem or not:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060703/.../space_shuttle

I think the NASA spokesman's quote, "we don't know if it's a problem or not" says it all... :mad2:

For those that haven't been following this too closely, two launch dates have been scrubbed already: this past Saturday and also yesterday (Sunday). The new launch date has been set for tomorrow, the Fourth of July.

Personally, I don't get it. The shuttle needs a near perfect sky to launch for two main reasons: one, electrical charges in storm clouds have the potential to do serious damage to the craft's more delicate systems, and two, NASA always wants fairly clear visability should a post-launch abort be neccessary and the shuttle need to make an emergency landing.

The problem is this time of year in Florida, the chances of those conditions on any given day (let alone a specific launch time) are SLIM. Summer storm season is in full swing, and unpredictable weather systems move across the state daily.

I also think the idea of launching on July 4th is a big gamble and a bad idea. Not to be negative or temp fate, but honestly there is a big risk here, and should the unthinkable happen again and things go terribly wrong, we will always have that reminder on a date that is suppose to be entirely celebratory and festive.

Any comments???

[mwfanelli]

Well, the shuttle program is on its last legs anyway. As the only mission this time is a visit to the totally useless space station, the flight is probably not worth the danger and expense.

The space program in this country is almost dead. In spite of dubya's big talk about space, his NASA budget cuts insure that nothing new will be developed. We will continue to pour the last bits of money into a space station that serves no purpose, allow Hubble to die, and continue to cancel most new unmanned probes to the solar system.

The only true hope for renewed space exploration is the EU, Japanese, and eventually China. Once again, a US lead deliberately lost thanks to politics and grandstanding.

Bitter? Am I bitter? :-(

[Asylum Steve]

The space program in this country is almost dead...

...spy satellites and anti-missle defense weaponry! IMO, THAT is today's space program.

You know, when I see you list all those things, I have to say I agree with you, and as a space brat (father worked for Grumman in Bethpage), it makes me sad... :sad:

On the other hand, all those sci-fi movies usually have these "multi-national" agencies, projects, and crews, so maybe you'll be right about that to, and we'll see some wonderous stuff in the future...

BTW, this also makes me think I'd better hustle if I ever hope to photograph one of these shuttle launches. Think I'm running out of time... :frown2:

[walterick]

Well, I can't claim to be educated about the workings of NASA.

But that never stopped me from having an opinion before

It seems to me that scientists are normally very rigorous, careful, meticulous people, and if something isn't right, they would rather redo the whole thing at the expense of millions than go ahead with something they know is wrong...

... so, *IF* that's the case with the scientists at NASA, I wonder what else is pushing this shuttle launch forward. Steve you mentioned the Bush administration's goals for NASA. I wonder what role political pressure plays in this scenario?

I wonder to what extent politicians have moved into high-ranking positions in NASA and began directing the organization in certain directions per their interests?

I wonder what effect commercial interests have here. Are there satelites going up? Who's going to use them? Is their research being done? What company stands to profit from these experiments?

Michael mentioned the space station. What's going on up there? What research or activities are occuring? How informed is the American public as to the goingson on that space station? How many Americans are aware that we even have a space station?

I may be way off base here, but my first thought in reading your post Steve is that there were pressures going on under the surface pushing the launch to occur.

Call me the conspiracy theorist

[mwfanelli]

It seems to me that scientists are normally very rigorous, careful, meticulous people, and if something isn't right, they would rather redo the whole thing at the expense of millions than go ahead with something they know is wrong...

But these are engineers. Engineers have a scientific background but are also well grounded in the practical. Scientists wonder "how things work" while engineers think about "how can I use this?"

Michael mentioned the space station. What's going on up there? What research or activities are occuring? How informed is the American public as to the goingson on that space station? How many Americans are aware that we even have a space station?

The space staion was supposed to be for research but that never materialized. There is no signifigant science going on, most efforts are at trying to keep the stupid thing from falling apart. Americans don't care, scientists don't care because there is nothing to care about.

[walterick]

But these are engineers. Engineers have a scientific background but are also well grounded in the practical. Scientists wonder "how things work" while engineers think about "how can I use this?"

Michael, what would you say the ratio of scientists to engineers is at NASA? Do you feel the engineers would be less careful in preparing for a launch?

Do you disagree there are political/commercial pressures at work here?

The space staion was supposed to be for research but that never materialized. There is no signifigant science going on, most efforts are at trying to keep the stupid thing from falling apart. Americans don't care, scientists don't care because there is nothing to care about.

So, what are they doing there besides supergluing and duct taping things back together?

[mwfanelli]

Michael, what would you say the ratio of scientists to engineers is at NASA? Do you feel the engineers would be less careful in preparing for a launch?

Do you disagree there are political/commercial pressures at work here?

Many, many more engineers. Yes, the administrators at NASA are under political pressure. But this pressure is not a conspiracy (I hope) just an abundance of ignorance and no background in technology.

So, what are they doing there besides supergluing and duct taping things back together?

Duct tape? They have duct tape??!!!

They litearlly spend all their time doing repairs and maintenance, hoping that their oxygen doesn't run out thanks to continuously faulty generators. Perhaps all the money being "spent" on the ISS is actually funding alien research at Area 51. Hmmm...

[spacey]

Allow me to make something clear.
I live in Houston, and regularly commute to the Cape - even on non-launch events.

The people around here, the economy here - is a big part of NASA. If NASA were to "die" - thousands here and in Florida, and in Alabama, and offsites everywhere, would be jobless. Suprisingly, we dont find much humor in people saying we're on our last "legs".

Preperations for new unmanned rovers, efficient fuels, renewable energy. Engineers dont duct tape, they spot weld. Scientists know the true volitality of super glue.

Personally, I find all this offensive.

[Asylum Steve]

Perhaps all the money being "spent" on the ISS is actually funding alien research at Area 51. Hmmm...

Man, don't you watch West Wing? Alien research has been moved to Fort Knox...

[Asylum Steve]

Suprisingly, we dont find much humor in people saying we're on our last "legs"...

Well, Michael said the space shuttle was on its last legs, and whether anyone finds humor in it or not (and if you re-read his and my posts, I think it's obvious WE don't), sadly it is true...

Trust me, media coverage of NASA and the American space program is as extensive here as anywhere in the country, and the word most definitely was (and I say was because were we blessed with a near perfect lift-off after all) had there been ANY major problems with today's launch, that could very well have marked the end of the program.

As is - last shuttle to fly. Ever...

Personally, I find all this offensive...

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, although it would be helpful if you could be more specific. On the other hand, we just as entitled to ours, and as someone who has just joined this site, you need to realize that long-time members in an Off Topic Forum have a right to "shoot the breeze" as it were...

I'm not sure you're really getting what we've been saying. We are BIG space fans, most definitely FOR new and exciting things from NASA, not against it. Why do you think we're upset by the state of the program and the potentially bleak future it holds???

[spacey]

Sorry for putting off such a strong opnion, but when you grow up on this, when grown men cry over failures that everyone else laughs at. Specific as in how I find it offensive? People may invest thier lives in this program, many do -yet they may never come within 10 feet of a vehicle. That you joke around that we're wacky... I felt that the idea that the group as a whole was being put off as useless or dying - the shuttle program we know is riding into the sunset. Your opnion I dont disregard, but the people who never actually see how much of the community is invested in a program that is mocked so easily - it's something that hangs me up. My apologies

[walterick]

Spacey, no need to apologize.

I think every American has a place in their heart for the space shuttle and NASA. It's something that excited us as kids and gave us pride as adults. I think part of the "ribbing" on our parts comes from the disappointment at the state of affairs currently. Kind of like watching Super Man get old.

I'm sure the last thing any of us want is to see NASA go under or the space shuttle stop flying, let alone watching people lose their jobs. It's always fun to poke fun at beaurocracies, but we mean no harm to the people underneath.

Are you connected to NASA in some way? Or do you consider yourself part of the culture? Got any cool stories?

[mwfanelli]

Sorry for putting off such a strong opnion, but when you grow up on this, when grown men cry over failures that everyone else laughs at. Specific as in how I find it offensive? People may invest thier lives in this program, many do -yet they may never come within 10 feet of a vehicle. That you joke around that we're wacky... I felt that the idea that the group as a whole was being put off as useless or dying - the shuttle program we know is riding into the sunset. Your opnion I dont disregard, but the people who never actually see how much of the community is invested in a program that is mocked so easily - it's something that hangs me up. My apologies

Let's get something straight here. I had just graduated high school when we landed on the moon in July 1969. It was one of the reasons I chose to go into physics rather than comparative literature. The space program and NASA literally guided my early life and helped form my personality. I have NOTHING to apologize for.

NASA was doing fantastic work back then. They had the budget, they had the people, they had the vision. But NASA became old hat, the movie "Apollo 13" was very close to the truth. As interest in the space program dwindled, so did the funding. NASA lost many good people, projects were put on hold, the vision got blurry. That is fact, not fiction.

NASA has had many successes. The missions to Mars have been great in spite of some failures. The trips to the outer planets have been spectacular. The space observatories, such as Hubble, Spitzer, etc. have yielded fantastic science.

But NASA has also gone way off track. Hubble is left to rot while its replacement is stalled. The ISS was a bad idea from the start, sucking the limited money from NASA, and serving no scientific purpose. The space shuttle program is falling apart, due mostly to age, with no real replacement in sight. Bush declares a new inititive to send men back to the moon and on to Mars but provides no extra money meaning that much more valuable projects are cancelled.

There are many fishermen who have destroyed the very waters they fish and now suffer a declining number of jobs. Loggers, the same thing. Manufacturing and high tech jobs are lost to overseas outsourcing. NASA people are no different. Like it or not, the USA is losing its technical and scientific edge, there is just so much that can be sustained on momentum. NASA and its people will suffer just like the rest of us.

Other places in the world are taking over the functions that used to be NASA's domain. That's a fact that can't be ignored. Please don't blame the messenger when you don't like the message.

[Asylum Steve]

I'm sure the last thing any of us want is to see NASA go under or the space shuttle stop flying, let alone watching people lose their jobs. It's always fun to poke fun at beaurocracies, but we mean no harm to the people underneath...

I was really struggling with how to respond to spacey's comments, but you summed up my feelings perfectly...

Despite appearences sometimes, as a writer I choose my words very carefully, and when I used the term "wacky" in the subject of this thread, I felt it was clear from the rest of my post that I was targeting the government beaurocracy and mocking the way it is handcuffing and perhaps suffocating our once mighty space program.

And I'll say it again: I think this is a case of you, spacey, as a new member of this site, jumping into a discussion without really knowing anything about the backgrounds or personalities of the others posting.

I too, feel there is no need for anyone to apologize, but I would like to make it clear if there is anyone here who can say they represent the blue collar aspect of the space program, it's me.

My dad worked as a machinist for Grumman Aerospace for thirty years (hard work, low pay), and as such we WERE members of this "space community" you mention. FWIW, I was born in Bethpage, and if anyone here doesn't know what role that small Long Island town played in this country's space race, look it up.

Over the years we lived and died many times with NASA's successes and failures...

To think for a second with my background that I was belittling the men, women, and families that do the lion's share of the work and depend on the program for their livelyhood is to not have read my words very closely.

BTW, many of us here often use humor to make points about very serious issues, so you'd better get used to it. There is a phrase, "laugh to keep from crying", and it means you sometimes make light (as in shaking your head in disbelief) of things even though you're upset by them.

To simply rant aimlessly about an issue in a deadly serious way is not always the most healthy thing to do. I started this thread for one reason only: because I care about NASA, the space program, and the shuttle, and I'm bothered by what has been happening.

BTW2, now if you guys want some GOOD news about NASA to help balance things a bit, check out this report from ABC news:

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=2152449&page=1

Seems one of NASA's programs is partly responsible for a record streak of US airline safety... :thumbsup:

[yakkosmurf]

Well, the shuttle program is on its last legs anyway. As the only mission this time is a visit to the totally useless space station, the flight is probably not worth the danger and expense.

You don't seem to know much about spaceflight or engineering. At this point, the Space Station is serving as a valuable test platform to allow NASA to take the next step of setting up a base on the moon. The Station is a giant engineering task, and learning how to assemble something that large in orbit allows them to learn many things before trying to do a similar feat on the Moon or Mars.

Secondly, to have long term missions to the Moon and Mars, we need reliable means of regenerable life support. One of these components (an oxygen generator) was flown up on the Shuttle last week. In the next few years, they will fly a water processor, urine processor, and CO2 reduction unit. Learning to perfect the design of this equipment is the only way for people to spend long periods of time on another planet. They minimize the number of consumables needed for the trip, and having them on the Station allows them to be tested in the space environment where flying spares is easier and closer.

Personally, I would much rather see efforts going to get the US back to the moon and on to Mars before the Chinese (they play to land on the moon in 2025). But, I've taken the time to learn the engineering and science required to meet that goal. The successful completion of the Station program is the only way NASA can gain the knowledge to get there. Not to mention the lessons learned in the area of international coorperation. The success of the International Space Station means a trip to other worlds can include the Russians, Europeans, and Japanese. Which is how exploration should be done.

[yakkosmurf]

Well, I can't claim to be educated about the workings of NASA.


I may be way off base here, but my first thought in reading your post Steve is that there were pressures going on under the surface pushing the launch to occur.

The only pressures to get the launch to occur is to finish the ISS before 2010, plain and simple. NASA has some contractual agreements with its International Partners to have their modules flown to the Station in the near future. The longer it takes to get back to regular Shuttle flights, the fewer flights there will be. That said, the ISS assembly sequence has been changed more times than you can count. It is a very robust design, so if there are fewer flights, things can be dropped and rearranged to accomodate the few Shuttles. That's why NASA isn't being pushed to fly before things are safe. There is plenty of flexibility in the ISS design and assembly sequence.

[yakkosmurf]

The space staion was supposed to be for research but that never materialized. There is no signifigant science going on, most efforts are at trying to keep the stupid thing from falling apart. Americans don't care, scientists don't care because there is nothing to care about.

Not true at all. You should see the number of experiments run on ISS. There are also plans to have two more laboratory modules up in the next couple of years with a crew of six people. The amount of science is pretty incredible. That said, the repair remark is also greatly exaggerated. The crew's 10 hour work day is less than an hour of total for all of them for maintenance. Some of the Russian equipment breaks frequently, but it's usually only the Russian crewmember that's occupied with the repairs. Please get some accurate information before saying things that are dead wrong. You can get it from the NASA websites like I do.

[yakkosmurf]

Michael, what would you say the ratio of scientists to engineers is at NASA? Do you feel the engineers would be less careful in preparing for a launch?

It's all engineers that work on the launching of the vehicle. Scientists are only involved in the experiments the crew performs while on board. The ratio would depend on the area at NASA. The life sciences group that coordinates all of the ISS experiments is all scientists and no engineers, while the launch people and mission control operators are all engineers and no scientists.

[yakkosmurf]

Duct tape? They have duct tape??!!!

They litearlly spend all their time doing repairs and maintenance, hoping that their oxygen doesn't run out thanks to continuously faulty generators.

Yes, they have duct tape. Why not? It's a great product.

Until last week, there was only one oxygen generator on board. It's Russian built and has been breaking frequently. There are plenty of spare parts for it, so the crew usually gets it running in short order. Also, because oxygen is precious, there are two backup systems to supply oxygen to the crew that are completely different from the generator. A US built generator was flown on the current Shuttle, so the oxygen production systems are not of a concern at all. With 4 layers of redundancy, the crew could stay forever if the one giving the crew problems thus far broke for good. Again, you guys are making a big deal out of nothing, and running wild with false and half information. Learn to use the web.

[mwfanelli]

Sad but true. Decreasing NASA budgets are forcing NASA to look at completely discontinuing research on the space station. This follows a shift away from basic research that has already happened over the years:

"Rather than researching materials, fluid physics and other basic microgravity phenomena, NASA decided to fund only those programs that had a direct bearing on human spaceflight beyond low-Earth orbit, which is where the space station and the space shuttles fly. Funding for radiation studies, for example, was to be a key part of the U.S. station research program."

"When implementing more than $300 million of station cuts last year, NASA Administrator Michael Griffin told Congress it was more important to get the station built than spend money for research."

Sad, but it does confirm what some of us have been saying about the ISS here in this thread.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/0...eut/index.html