Stanley "Tookie" Williams Executed in California

[Michael Fanelli]

Look, the bottom line is simple here. After 30 years of court reviews and last minute extra reviews of all the evidence, old and new, everyone came to the same conclusion: Tookie was guilty beyond any doubt. Almost everyone claims to be innocent for some reason or another. In all the media hype about he being a "poor victim", how many times did you hear about the REAL victims, the people Tookie murdered and their families that have to live with it?

Can you "redeem" yourself of four murders by writing a few books? In that 30+ years, he refused to help police with the Crypts. He refused to help police with crimes he knew about. Waste 30 years with appeals, write a few books, and everything is forgiven? Come on now!

A person given a lfe sentence without parole is pretty much living on "prison easy street." He can do anything he wants, injure or kill fellow inmates and/or guards. You already gave him the maximum sentence, what are you going to do about it? The answer is simple, absolutely nothing. There is no fear of further punishment, no inhibitions. Do we really want a prison system loaded with people beyond punishment?

I'm not deluding myself, I realize that the death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with deterrence. Like it or not, mankind is not filled with the "milk of kindness." Seeing someone who slaughtered your family member(s) in cold blood suffer the maximum penalty is closure, a tiny bit of relief that this person has suffered the same fate as his victims, that he can never do that again regardless of anything else. And yes, a bit of revenge as well.

There was nothing at all redeeming about Tookie. It was all smoke and mirrors because he was desperate to escape the penalty for his crimes. Crimes that he knowingly planned and carried out. They say that bullies are really cowards. Even with a gun, Tookie was no different and paid the cost.

[srobb]

Well, I cannot say whether the man was innocent, or guilty. The fact that there have been innocent men convicted by a jury of their peers leads me to believe our system is still flawed. I do not believe in the death penalty simply because I don't believe it is the deterrant they claim it is.

This I will say and don't like talking about it; people want to talk about those in prison as being a non-class of individuals. Or they want to talk about how they cannot be rehabilitated. The reason for that is that most people don't want the system geared for that. Why else would they complain about all the money spent for prison health-care (which really is nothing but a joke), or the money spent in trying to help inmates gain new skills, or continue their education. No, people don't want that because they don't want these "people" able to get out and maybe move next to them.

Ok, I have had my rant now. In a more rational tone of voice I will say, again, that I don't agree with the death penalty. It serves no purpose other than to kill others; simply a legal form of murder. Tookie may have been innocent. No one will ever know that for sure. For what ever reason, he at least tried to do something positive with his life experiences with writing the books for kids. I will at least give the man a little credit for that, no matter what reason he actually did it for.

[Michael Fanelli]

Ok, I have had my rant now. In a more rational tone of voice I will say, again, that I don't agree with the death penalty. It serves no purpose other than to kill others; simply a legal form of murder. Tookie may have been innocent. No one will ever know that for sure. For what ever reason, he at least tried to do something positive with his life experiences with writing the books for kids. I will at least give the man a little credit for that, no matter what reason he actually did it for.

Uh... reading this just now I notice that its sounds a bit too harsh in tone (not content). Sorry about that, I wrote this very quickly this morning! But I don't have the time for a rewrite.

First, show me an executed person who was innocent. Even that highly touted "executed but innocent" case of last week was proven wrong, the DNA nailed him just like all the other evidence. Yet he proclaimed his innocence right to the end.

"Tookie may have been innocent." Well, the sun might not rise tomorrow! Nothing in life is provable 100%. Thirty years! Thirty years of reviews! No one thought he was innocent based on the evidence. Do you really believe he was innocent or are you just grasping at straws to support the "no death penalty" stance?

Also, what do you do with those who admit their crimes? Are they in a similiar situation of maybe being innocent?

No, Tookie did very little to rehabilitate himself. He stayed a loyal Crypt all through those 30 years. He steadfastly refused to give any help at all to the police prevent more murders by giving up information about the Crypts. How many other murders did that allow, how many of those were murders of the very children he was allegedly concerned about?

A few books doesn't absolve someone of a string of murders. Thirty years of stalling doesn't change the facts. Yes, execution is state sponsored murder. But for a society to function, everyone must be willing to give up a little of that human desire for sadism and violence that lies within them. When people decide to become murderous bullies, putting themselves above the rest of society, they have to be dealt with. There are no more Australias any more. Some people must die so the vast majority may live.

If you are a Christian, then you really do have to oppose the death penalty based on faith. That's fine but the rest of us can not be bound by that. Even God itself is not bound by that, slaughtering hundreds of millions based on a "secret plan" (just like Nixon!). Christians believe that executions by God are OK because of The Plan, executions by humans to preserve society are evil. I just don't get it and probably never will.

By the way, I notice that you too are painting Tookie as the victim here just like the vast majority of observers. Once again, the real victims of his crimes, the people he murdered and their families, have been totally left out of the equation. Why is there always so much sympathy for the violent criminals and so little for their victims?

[srobb]

Michael, I hope I did not give the wrong impression. I do feel for all those families that lost loved ones because of Tookie; both directly and indirectly. My being against the death penalty really has no part in my faith being whatever it is. I look at it as strictly being a failure for what it was supposed to do; be a deterrant to serious crime. To me that is absolutely ludicrous as an idea since you will always have those individuals that nothing will deter.

I would have to look back at records; not sure if there were any actually on death row to be proven innocent. The fact still remains there have been a number of individuals in the last few years convicted of serious crimes that have now been found innocent through DNA. That simply tells me that the possibility is there for it to happen for someone sent to Death Row.

Writing a few books does not make anyone remorseful if you want to get right down to it. My problem is those that do not believe someone convicted of serious crimes could not be remorseful for what they had done. They don't want to believe it for whatever reason. Is it any wonder that recidivism rates can be high when society keeps that stigma attached to anyone that gets out and truly wants to change. It's not against the law to deny employment because of criminal record. Should it be? I don't know.

But I can tell you this; I know of a man that was convicted of quite serious charges (some would say the worst possible) that has been out now for almost 12 years and never once thought of going back.

[Michael Fanelli]

... I look at it as strictly being a failure for what it was supposed to do; be a deterrant to serious crime. To me that is absolutely ludicrous as an idea since you will always have those individuals that nothing will deter.

I agree, the death penalty is not, and never was, a deterrent. People don't stop and think "Gee, I wonder if I'll be executed for this" before killing someone. Punishment in general is ineffective as a deterrent. The death penalty is for those whose crimes are so heinous that we dare not let these people continue living in out society. The US is very careful about applying the death penalty, allowing 30 years for appeals! Even Texas! The percentage of people sentenced to death is minimal.

I would have to look back at records; not sure if there were any actually on death row to be proven innocent. The fact still remains there have been a number of individuals in the last few years convicted of serious crimes that have now been found innocent through DNA. That simply tells me that the possibility is there for it to happen for someone sent to Death Row.

Yes, some people on death row have, through appeals, have gotten off. But no one who was actually excecuted has ever been proven innocent. Think of it this way, if there were someone like that, the anti-death-penalty crowd would be screaming it out loud. That is why they were so disappointed that in the recent case the new evidence went against them.

The serious crimes you are talking about are almost all rape cases. These guys were never on death row, never sentenced to death. Yes, mistakes are made. But, once again, the death penalty is rarely used for any crime.

...any wonder that recidivism rates can be high when society keeps that stigma attached to anyone that gets out and truly wants to change. It's not against the law to deny employment because of criminal record. Should it be? I don't know.

The problem is that even the most aggressive attempts to reform criminals fail for most. Yes, we do have a major problem turning simple drug users into hardened criminals. Smoke a joint, get thrown into the joint. But none of these people, even the major drug dealers, have death sentences.

But I can tell you this; I know of a man that was convicted of quite serious charges (some would say the worst possible) that has been out now for almost 12 years and never once thought of going back.

That's great but, unfortunately, not the norm.

[shutterman]

Michael, I think you and I finally agree on something! good points on this case and the death penalty.