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  1. #1
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Keep this thread civil please...

    NYC has started a program to conduct random police search and seizures in the subway system. If you refuse, you will not be allowed to ride the subway and may be subject to arrest.

    If this were the only situation, it would be awful but not super worrying. Unfortunately, 9/11 has been used as an excuse to have the federal government take away our rights and liberties in all sorts of ways. From the massive horror of the rubber-stamp 10-year renewal of the Patriot Act by the House, to the use of driver's licenses as national ID cards, to the banning of photography in public places, freedom is being taken away from us with our approval.

    Yeah, I'm rambling a bit but there has been the largest expansion of federal power in American history since 9/11. States rights are eroding at a furious rate. Yet so many people (most?) just sit back and say "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."

    Quite frankly, I'm more worried about our own government than of the terrorists. Have we reached a time in American history when the true exercise of freedom is finally lost? Have the terrorists won the battle against democracy? As an almost-Libertarian, am I over-reacting? Opinions?

    Frustrated in Perryville
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  2. #2
    Learning more with every "click" mjs1973's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    I heard about the searches on the radio this morning. What I heard was that if you refuse, you are free to go about your business. If that is the case, I don't see a problem with it, but on the other hand, it would be a complete waste of resources to even ask. Who would be dumb enuf to agree to a search, knowing that they had something they shouldn't?

    I have to say, I was dissapointed to hear about the Patriat Act this morning as well...
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  3. #3
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjs1973
    What I heard was that if you refuse, you are free to go about your business. If that is the case, I don't see a problem with it...
    The problem I see is that taxpayer money is used to run the system, it is not self-sufficient. Excluding taxpayers from using what they pay for, without cause, is flat out wrong. Refusing to be searched when there is no probable cause involved has always been a consequence of the Bill of Rights. Not any more.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  4. #4
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    I don't live in the USA, never been there, probably never will, unless I win Lotto, which is highly unlikely, need to buy a ticket first.

    Yes this could be seen as an invasion into ones privacy, taking away of liberties, etc etc etc. But think about the reasons behind all this first and see the bigger picture.

    It is going to happen in England after the recent two weeks of horrific bombings and the most recent failed (thank God) attempts to further reap havic on Londoners.

    I personally don't have a problem with National ID Cards at all, would help to maybe get rid of many of the other cards that we carry now, like Medicare, Drivers Licence, credit cards etc, maybe have just the one card that has it all, or maybe not, if you loose it, your stuffed in a way aren't you.

    No system is perfect, but a system that might help to decrease, diminish, find threats, before they happen to me is a good thing not a bad thing.

    Here in Australia, I suppose we sort of have it a bit luckier than most other major Counties around the World, like the USA, England, France, Germany, but we have been subject to terror attacks here, although not to the scale you lot have, but we have also been targeted on foriegn shores like Bali as an example.

    I saw yesterday that one of the Terrorists that hired the bombers of the Australian Embassy in Indonesia, found guilty was sentenced to 3 1/2 years jail (go figure that one), yet the young Australian Girl tied for supposedly importing Marijuana in her Boggie Board ( who knows if she really did or not), got sentenced to 20 years jail. Now that tells you to be a terrorist and not an drug importer doesn't it, and I think this sort of issue needs to be addressed more than just the inconvenience of having your bag searched in underground railway areas.

    It is inconvenient, not taking away your Bill of Rights. I am sure there are many that would gladly have their bags checked (although how many of them are going to be thoroughly searched) and have a little better piece of mind about travelling in tunnels that could end up as there death scenes.

    I know I wouldn't mind. Yes I might miss my train or tram, or bus, but hey, there is another one comming usually, pretty soon.

    Have the Government overreated a bit, probably, but I think it is a necessary action based on the finding that are currently comming out about the London Bombings 2 weeks ago, and the fact that their homeland security people, probably let something/someone slip through their procedures and the suffered (and we did too, 1 dead and 10 injured some severly) the devestation of three trains bombed and one bus too.

    Remember Your Government is in power for what 8 years and there is what 3 1/2 years of Bush to go, then actively start a ground swell to get the people in power that you feel might be more comfortable for you, but remember, we live with our decisions as well, every day.

    Good post Michael

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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    I am totally with you. If I say more it would be an outpouring of angry emotions.

    Mike

  6. #6
    Panarus biarmicus Moderator (Sports) SmartWombat's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    It is definitely a victory for the terrorists, pushing the "civilised" world towards total state control enforced by the police (and other arms of the government).

    Already they are clamouring for 90 days' detention by the police without trial and without charges, just while under suspicion. We have effective house arrest (control orders) and laws that can be used to prohibit the gathering of more than 3 people in public.

    The knee-jerk reaction of policiticans is to implement new badly thought out legislation that takes away even more rights (like the right to jury trial) in order to be seen to be doing something.

    ID cards? Don't make me laugh. Did our current immigration and nationalisation controls prevent the current attacks? Will more controls prevent future attacks, by people already in the country?

    How long will it take someone to crack the current biometric IDs and their encryption, to produce false documents? I've seen estimates of 5 years. Also that the biometric comparisons are about 5% inaccurate. So is it worth the billions it will cost?

    Hmm, who makes the equipment, and who is driving this move? The USA is pushing visitors to the USA to have biometric IDs in their passports. Unless there is a common interoperability standard between all the national systems, there can only be one system in use in all countries participating in the biometric passport system. Or passport contorl has a reader for every country's passport system !!

    I reckon I'm well on the way to "grumpy old man" status ...
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  7. #7
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Western democracy (as opposed to true democracy) has always survived on maintaining the illusion of freedom. The double-dealing, backhanding and corruption of high office by interested parties (mainly businesses) has always been what really controlled the country, especially in the US and here in the UK.

    The problem now is that these horrendous terror attacks have been and are being used as "justification" for more blatant erosion of individual freedoms to the point where even the illusion of freedom is gone and we are told by the fraudsters in power "don't blame us, blame the terrorists". And who made the terrorists?

    I believe Billy Connolly hit the nail on the head when he said "The mere fact that someone expresses a desire to enter politics should automatically disqualify them from ever doing so".

  8. #8
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    As long as we (and I mean the US) are making decisions based on fear, these types of regulations will get pushed right thru. Under the guise that they are "for our own protection", if we don't agree with them, we must have something to hide. After all, it's for our own safety.

    I read an article about why New York wasn't chosen to hold the Olympics, and the guy who wrote it ended with a conversation he had some years back. The US is not a well liked nation. We are viewed as an arrogant know-it-all. Which, considering our nation's leader.....
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  9. #9
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashram_Peter_AUS
    Yes this could be seen as an invasion into ones privacy, taking away of liberties, etc etc etc. But think about the reasons behind all this first and see the bigger picture.
    The critical difference has always been the fierce protection of freedom in the US. This protection ranges from the ridiculous ("I need to own a missle launcher to protect myself") to the extremely important ("You have no right to know what I'm reading at the library.")

    When I worked at a national lab here, we had European visitors from the AEC. I was always amazed at what they found shocking. When a women argued with a cop who had pulled her over I thought they were going to s**t in their pants!

    In my mind, there are no good reasons for gross invasion of privacy without a good cause. These sweeping random "turn over the dirt" tactics scare me no end. Plus, they serve no useful purpose other than increase the power of the state.

    Power is ALWAYS abused, regardless of promises. Terrorist legislation is already being used against gang members. By simply classifying anyone as a terrorist, the police have a massive amount of new power. Who decides if a person or group is a terrorist? The people who wield the power!

    I personally don't have a problem with National ID Cards at all, would help to maybe get rid of many of the other cards that we carry now, like Medicare, Drivers Licence, credit cards etc, maybe have just the one card that has it all, or maybe not, if you loose it, your stuffed in a way aren't you.
    National ID cards for americans is about as intrusive as the government can get. Yeah, lots of cards are annoying but it makes it more difficult for the government to keep track and correlate them. They do it anyway but its not easy. Social Security numbers, for example, can't be used without permission. I always annoy people when I say no and force them to assign me a non-SSN number (work, school, etc.). Besides, the next thing we know, they'll be encodong "666" into the RFID tags. :-)

    No system is perfect, but a system that might help to decrease, diminish, find threats, before they happen to me is a good thing not a bad thing.
    No such thing exists or can exist. Even the Germans in WW II couldn't stop the resistance movement.

    Remember Your Government is in power for what 8 years and there is what 3 1/2 years of Bush to go, then actively start a ground swell to get the people in power that you feel might be more comfortable for you, but remember, we live with our decisions as well, every day.
    Not really. Senators and many reps are there for 20 years or more. They sell themselves to the highest bidder. They become arrogant and self-important, seeing themselves as extremely important people. Our system is extremely dangerous because of this, an incumbent who loses is a big news item. Yep, the fault of the voters.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  10. #10
    Senior Member payn817's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Well, rest easy knowing that Wal-Mart will soon own the world anyway. That is an even scarier thought. Jains Joplin once said "freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose". I guess we are free now, as we could not loose more privacy, etc.

    I saw this bumper sticker the other day it stated: "regime change starts at home!"

    We are supposedly trying to help Iraq become more like us, yet we are becoming more like what they once were!

  11. #11
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashram_Peter_AUS
    unless I win Lotto, which is highly unlikely, need to buy a ticket first.
    Hmm... Could be another good OT thread. I'm with you there, I pay enough taxes without buying lottery tickets!

    We do have a lot of freedoms here. I can get in my car anytime I want (job and other responsibilities aside) and drive all the way across the country. I won't get stopped for an ID or passport check crossing a state line and can assume that I'll have the roads to travel on and places to get fuel 24 hours a day in most areas. I can go to a grocery store 24 hours a day too, and get whatever I want. There are a lot of places in the world where this isn't the case.

    Like everyone else, I don't agree with everything our government does, but I'm free to speak my mind about it (once again, not true everywhere). If I really distrusted our government, I'd be free to go somewhere else (again...).

    Sure, liberties are taken away but so far there hasn't really been any changes that have personally affected my life other than taking my shoes off at the airport.

  12. #12
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by another view

    Sure, liberties are taken away but so far there hasn't really been any changes that have personally affected my life other than taking my shoes off at the airport.
    I specifically wore flip flops so I wouldn't have to, but since the soles were a good 2 inches thick, they made me take them off anyway.
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  13. #13
    Senior Member payn817's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    a car at wal-mart
    Last edited by payn817; 07-11-2006 at 04:41 PM.

  14. #14
    nature/wildlife co-moderator paulnj's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by adina
    As long as we (and I mean the US) are making decisions based on fear, these types of regulations will get pushed right thru. Under the guise that they are "for our own protection", if we don't agree with them, we must have something to hide. After all, it's for our own safety.
    FDR summed it up in 1933 when speaking of the great depression " THE ONLY THING WE HAVE TO FEAR IS FEAR ITSELF"

    I fear NO MAN or DEATH, but the GOVERNMENT scares the SH!T out of me lately!

    Personally I think 9/11 was a SHAME for millions of affected people, but I see no reason for the loss of my constitutional rights due to that day! I seriously have NOTHING to hide, but would rather DIE than let "THE GOVERNMENT" enter my home without just cause ;) I assure you I will make CNN(communist news network) if they do try too

    Let's just all pray that the 22ND ammendment stays as is ;)



    here is my bumper sticker image
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Horrible Loss of Rights?-6859bumperpr.jpg  
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  15. #15
    Senior Member payn817's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulnj

    I fear NO MAN or DEATH, but the GOVERNMENT scares the SH!T out of me lately!

    Personally I think 9/11 was a SHAME for millions of affected people, but I see no reason for the loss of my constitutional rights due to that day! I seriously have NOTHING to hide, but would rather DIE than let "THE GOVERNMENT" enter my home without just cause ;) I assure you I will make CNN(communist news network) if they do try too

    Let's just all pray that the 22ND ammendment stays as is ;)


    here is my bumper sticker image

    Paul, you rock! I am with you there. That image of the car is actually my car. That sign will be there until it rots, or things change for the better!

    By the way, the 22nd amendment doesn't include dictators.

  16. #16
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by another view
    We do have a lot of freedoms here. I can get in my car anytime I want (job and other responsibilities aside) and drive all the way across the country. I won't get stopped for an ID or passport check crossing a state line and can assume that I'll have the roads to travel on and places to get fuel 24 hours a day in most areas. I can go to a grocery store 24 hours a day too, and get whatever I want. There are a lot of places in the world where this isn't the case.
    Having food and gas available 24 hours a day is not a basic freedom! Right now, public transportation is under growing government control. That is not freedom. Your car is safe for now (unless you want to smoke in it soon!) but for how long. Freedom isn't being grabbed at one shot but nibbled away piece by piece.

    Like everyone else, I don't agree with everything our government does, but I'm free to speak my mind about it (once again, not true everywhere). If I really distrusted our government, I'd be free to go somewhere else (again...).
    Tell that to climate scientists who are now being investigated by the FBI because they talk too much about global warming. Tell that to common criminals who are now being charged with terrorism so the new police powers can be exercised. Tell that to citizens who are barred from Bush campaign stops because they won't sign loyalty oaths. Little by little, piece by piece...

    Sure, liberties are taken away but so far there hasn't really been any changes that have personally affected my life other than taking my shoes off at the airport.
    It doesn't count until it affects me personally? They will come for you eventually.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  17. #17
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Fanelli
    Having food and gas available 24 hours a day is not a basic freedom! Right now, public transportation is under growing government control. That is not freedom. Your car is safe for now (unless you want to smoke in it soon!) but for how long. Freedom isn't being grabbed at one shot but nibbled away piece by piece.



    Tell that to climate scientists who are now being investigated by the FBI because they talk too much about global warming. Tell that to common criminals who are now being charged with terrorism so the new police powers can be exercised. Tell that to citizens who are barred from Bush campaign stops because they won't sign loyalty oaths. Little by little, piece by piece...



    It doesn't count until it affects me personally? They will come for you eventually.

    To add to this, we tend to have lots of misconceptions of the rest of the world. I was just - less than 8 weeks ago - in communist and socialist countries. They can do everything was just mentioned. In fact, they can do just about everything we can. Sure, most don't have our expendable income or general economy, but that's changing too.

    I know that human right issues have, and do still happen, in those countries that we take offense of. CNN will find one for us. However, for every one that the people who live there would tell me about (yes, the can talk freely too), I can find something similar in the US that's happened more than once in my lifetime. In a way it was scary, because we're going backwards and they're moving forwards!

    BTW, did you catch that an innocent man was shot in london as a terrorist? A brazilian man that obviousely passed as middle eastern. But they issued an appology.... I feel sorrow and shame that people of certain skin color are getting treated different than myself in MY country. That's not right.I believer it's the diversity of our nation that makes it strong.

  18. #18
    nature/wildlife co-moderator paulnj's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    It's not easy being me, but IT IS FUN AT TIMES !

    http://costofwar.com/


    http://www.buzzflash.com/theangryliberal/03/07/14.html
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  19. #19
    Senior Member payn817's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Awesome article. I have never voted, so some say I can't complain. Owell, I will complain, but i will also vote next time! Not that it makes a difference, anyone can be sick and powermad, and that is exactly what Bush is.

    Ok, a link from my old blog site, you got me started Paul!

    http://www.fingertime.com/bushdressup.php

  20. #20
    nature/wildlife co-moderator paulnj's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    that link was funny

    "DISSENT IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF PATRIOTISM" Thomas Jefferson
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  21. #21
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Fanelli
    Having food and gas available 24 hours a day is not a basic freedom!
    But I'd choose it over an arguement with a cop about whether or not I can photograph the Post Office or Police building (I don't see much point, they're not usually very exciting buildings), taking my shoes off at the airport (how long does that take?) or having to show my Passport to get into and back from Canada (that's in the works).

    If I was very passionate about photographing police stations (post offices, bridges, the list goes on), then I might care. I know there is tons of stuff written on photography forums about this issue, and it can legally be done (I gather) but might take an arguement with the police, being searched for no reason, etc. Like I said, they're ugly buildings so why do I care? I'll go look for something more architecturally interesting and talk to the owner if I'm really that interested. Might even sell a print too...

    I love Paul's quote from Thomas Jefferson, but I haven't seen anything we've talked about here that makes me want to revolt against the government. Not yet, anyway.

  22. #22
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Fanelli

    It doesn't count until it affects me personally? They will come for you eventually.
    I was thinking about this thread yesterday while we watched the news (which I try not to do) and it reminded me of a poem I read, something along the lines of

    First they came for..........but I said nothing because I wasn't.....
    Then they came for...
    goes on, the end is something like And then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up.

    Does anyone know which one I am talking about?
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  23. #23
    Learning more with every "click" mjs1973's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by payn817
    Jains Joplin once said "freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose".
    I love that song, but Kris Kristofferson is the author, not Janis.

    Anyway, I find this to be a very interesting thread with lots of good points. I had a sweatshirt at one time that said. "I love my country, it's my government I fear" I wonder what I did with that...
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  24. #24
    News & Rum-or-ator opus's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    One needs to stand up for the rights of the minority in order to protect one's own rights. Too many people think that they stand protected inside "the majority". But when the minority is gone, the majority creates a new minority out of itself. Who can know if they themselves will be part of it?


    Where would you go if you left here? I don't think Canada would take us.


    Do you think this issue could ever erupt into civil war? "Reds against Blues" ... "Libs against Bushbots" ... and all that? I'm not stating an opinion here, I'm just sayin' that I've seen some passionate arguments between people who call each other those names. Just wondering if you think it could ever escalate into riots.
    Drink Coffee. Do stupid things faster with more energy.


  25. #25
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Re: Horrible Loss of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by kellybean
    Do you think this issue could ever erupt into civil war? "Reds against Blues" ... "Libs against Bushbots" ... and all that? I'm not stating an opinion here, I'm just sayin' that I've seen some passionate arguments between people who call each other those names. Just wondering if you think it could ever escalate into riots.
    You know, over 200 years for one government is a very long time in the scheme of history. I see the US as being in decline, with its peak power and influence after WW II, in the 1950s. After that major victory, we became increasingly arrogant and pushy, making mistake after mistake starting with Korea. Playing policemen to the world is not something any country can do for very long.

    Yeah, divisions are higher then they have ever been. We have Christians working hard for a theocracy, leftists still longing for a "benevolent" big brother, racial divisions being larger albeit more subtle and hidden, professional politicians whose only qualification is dogma and the ability to eBay themselves and their votes...

    Revolt, another civil war, coming? I hope not but I'm just not that confident.that we can avoid it. But then, I'm old and will probably be dead before that happens!
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

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