The Fall of America

**mwfanelli** · 06-13-2007, 09:49 AM

This may be much too serious and heavy for this site, but let's see!

I have been hearing lots of news about a new book that documents the fall of American civilization by comparing it to the waning days of the Roman Empire. Many times, these comparisons are weak but this guy has many excellent points. Be aware that I am biased, I have believed in this decline for over a 15 years. Some points he makes, my apologies if I don't get them all exact, are:

1. The selling off of government. Our government has been for sale for quite a long time, accelerating in the last decade or so. Every politician is for sale to the influence that benefits him/her the most. This leads to massive corruption and crimes. Leaders of government become weaker and weaker. President Carter, although a smart guy, was an extremely weak leader. Bush the First was OK but again, a poor unfocused leader. Dubya is the dumbest president we have ever had in our history, sort of a Nero without the (warped of course) brains. Congress? Well choose any at random and you won't be happy. All of this weakens the United States severely. The same thing happened in Rome.

2. Our military is too small to do the tasks required by our weak leaders. This leads to ineffective measures and non-completion of campaigns. More and more of our vital military functions are being outsourced, from the Cheney-led no-contract bids for Haliburton to the infamous Blackjack squads to the use of foreign "secret" prisons and interrogators. We are also left weak at home as more and more of our resources go out of the country trying to hold the entire world together. These actions lead more and more countries to oppose our country. We blame them but it's really us. The same thing happened to Rome and their military as they tried to control their world. There was a reason that the hoards crossed over the hills of Rome without significant opposition.

3. There is an increasing gap between rich and poor with the middle class disappearing. The situation has now become worse than even during the Great Depression. That trend is continuing at an accelerating rate. In Rome, at the time of its fall, about 1% of its citizens were moneyed, the rest were dirt poor thanks to ineffective and selfish government (see 1, above).

4. Education in this country has become worse than it has ever been. We are now dead last in the first world in many subjects, we are even falling behind some third-world countries. No Child Left Behind is a tiny silly band-aid on a huge gash. About 25% of Americans can't find the United States on a world map! They have no idea where Iraq is, or Europe, or Russia. Math is a disaster, fractions are beyond the capabilities of almost half of all Americans. While our 8th graders are still working on fractions and proportions, students in England, France, and Spain are doing pre-calculus. Graduates with a PhD in science, such as physics, spend years as a post-doc in the United States or emigrate to get a real job. Superstition is used to create science public policy while science is ignored. The New York Times had to lower the reading level of their newspaper years ago because reading skills have declined so much. Lack of real education also weakened Rome as they glided along on momentum rather than creating new ideas and basic research.

There is so much more but this gives you an quick idea. As Doctor Who would say, "Nothing lives forever, not even Time Lords."

**another view** · 06-13-2007, 11:33 AM

Not familiar about the book, but one of the especially scary things to me is #3. Sure, there are so many steps in place to make sure we never see a repeat of the Great Depression, but one of the big factors that really played a big role in it was the lack of middle class purchasing power. The stock market crash of '29 was pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

Now we have too much middle class purchasing power. Heck, even a 10 year old kid (or close) got a pre-approved credit card application in the mail a week or two ago! My wife and I are fortunate enough to own a house, and know plenty of people who make a lot less money but have expensive houses and cars. What happens when one of them loses their income source due to layoff, getting sick or injured? With 5-digit credit card debt being frighteningly common, it can't take much of an upset in the cash flow to push a lot of these people into bankruptcy - and guess who pays for that...

Bigger this, more that, more powerful something else - keeps the economy going but at what long term price?

**walterick** · 06-13-2007, 11:45 PM

The Unites States of the Americas has been an excellent experiment in democracy. I doubt she'll die, but it will take an enormous effort to get her turned around. Her successes in the ways of freedoms and democracy have already changed the world. Even if she does go under, her spirit will pop up elsewhere.

Remember too, we're a fledgling 230 years old. That's only 3 life spans.

We're still going through puberty, methinks

**mwfanelli** · 06-14-2007, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by walterick

The Unites States of the Americas has been an excellent experiment in democracy. I doubt she'll die, but it will take an enormous effort to get her turned around. Her successes in the ways of freedoms and democracy have already changed the world. Even if she does go under, her spirit will pop up elsewhere.

Remember too, we're a fledgling 230 years old. That's only 3 life spans.

We're still going through puberty, methinks

Remember, many of those freedoms and principles of democracy have already been crushed by oppressive Bush domestic policies. Also, how do you get rid of all these corrupt politicians when the vast majority of Americans are too ignorant to even figure out that something is wrong?

**swmdrayfan** · 06-14-2007, 05:35 AM

I just wonder where we'd be if the billions being flushed by the Iraqi sinkhole were poured into education, health care reform, and domestic programs to elevate the less fortunate. :mad2:

**walterick** · 06-14-2007, 09:05 AM

"many of those freedoms and principles of democracy have already been crushed by oppressive Bush domestic policies."

I prefer to think of it as "squashed." The beautiful thing about freedom is once you taste it, you will never rest until you have it again. The spirit of the American people will not tolerate a monorchal regime for long. The oppression may creep in along the edges, but once people realize what is going on, there will be a revolt. Bush's ratings reflect that the majority of Americans do not support what he has done, or what he is doing. Don't forget that.

"Also, how do you get rid of all these corrupt politicians..?"

Reform. Accountability. And voting in the right candidates. I think you are losing too much faith in the ability of people to see what is going on. Politicans work for us, not the other way around. I think people have forgotten that too. Don't you think even the most incumbant senator starts to sweat a little when election season rolls around? They're all well aware that their constituents can turn on them on a dime. Voter dissatisfaction may be the greatest force of accountability in our democracy today. The last Congressional election and primary were great examples of that.

**mwfanelli** · 06-14-2007, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by walterick

"many of those freedoms and principles of democracy have already been crushed by oppressive Bush domestic policies."
I prefer to think of it as "squashed." The beautiful thing about freedom is once you taste it, you will never rest until you have it again. The spirit of the American people will not tolerate a monorchal regime for long. The oppression may creep in along the edges, but once people realize what is going on, there will be a revolt. Bush's ratings reflect that the majority of Americans do not support what he has done, or what he is doing. Don't forget that.

People dislike the war but the tactics Bush's administration uses, including the very recent FBI spying admissions, are largely ignored. People all over the world will gladly trade away freedom for the promise of "security." In the United States, all it takes is a few well-phrased slogans.

"Also, how do you get rid of all these corrupt politicians..?"
Reform. Accountability. And voting in the right candidates. I think you are losing too much faith in the ability of people to see what is going on. Politicans work for us, not the other way around. I think people have forgotten that too. Don't you think even the most incumbant senator starts to sweat a little when election season rolls around?

You mean like that politician Jefferson (I forgot first name) who was overwhelmingly
re-elected AFTER all that money was found in his freezer? You mean like Marion Barry who was re-elected after going to jail? You mean like Kennedy after the "accident" on the bridge?

They're all well aware that their constituents can turn on them on a dime. Voter dissatisfaction may be the greatest force of accountability in our democracy today.

And yet most incumbents stay in office almost all the time regardless of what they do!

The last Congressional election and primary were great examples of that.

Remember, the change in the majorities was by a very small amount and more than half of the contests went down to the wire. Not exactly an overwhelming response to the most corrupt congress and administration in our history.

Hey! By the way, where did the Republicans battle cry of "Character Counts!" go? I can't seem to find it anymore...

**photophorous** · 06-14-2007, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by swmdrayfan

I just wonder where we'd be if the billions being flushed by the Iraqi sinkhole were poured into education, health care reform, and domestic programs to elevate the less fortunate. :mad2:

I completely agree. If our media was functioning the way it's supposed to, people would have been making this point before the sinkhole ever cracked open.

Paul

**walterick** · 06-14-2007, 10:54 PM

"People dislike the war but the tactics Bush's administration uses, including the very recent FBI spying admissions, are largely ignored."

I'm not so sure. Take a look at the items in this poll:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...l?hpid=topnews

One of the items that stand out to me; "Do you think things in this country (are generally going in the right direction) or do you feel things (have gotten pretty seriously off on the wrong track)?" Overwhelmingly, 73% say the wrong track. When the data are broken down further, Bush and a distrust of politicians and ethics are listed among the top reasons. Is this a poll about domestic wire tapping? No, but it's in the same vein I think.

"People all over the world will gladly trade away freedom for the promise of "security."

Sometimes. If that were the case, there might be more support for this war given it was designed to "keep us safe from terror." Er, depending on the season.

"You mean like that politician Jefferson (I forgot first name) who was overwhelmingly
re-elected AFTER all that money was found in his freezer? You mean like Marion Barry who was re-elected after going to jail? You mean like Kennedy after the "accident" on the bridge?"

No, I actually meant more like Foley who got caught hitting on little boys and Allen who was a presidential front-runner until he turned his constituents off with a racial slur. Though, I suppose you could make the case that Foley dropped out of the race.

"And yet most incumbents stay in office almost all the time regardless of what they do!"

I think that opinion may not be based on numbers.

"Remember, the change in the majorities was by a very small amount and more than half of the contests went down to the wire. Not exactly an overwhelming response to the most corrupt congress and administration in our history."

No, some people will tend to vote along party lines, despite how things are going. Call it loyalty, I dunno. The Senate was close, that I'll give you, but the House was fairly decisive. And people are catching on. If that election were held this November, the margins would be wider. "Corruption" as you are calling it is harder to pin down as a problem when it's not too overt. Things like rising gas prices and the fact that Bush has killed more Americans than Osama Bin Laden tend to weigh heavier on people's minds.

"Hey! By the way, where did the Republicans battle cry of "Character Counts!" go? I can't seem to find it anymore..."

Heheh. Republicans tend to mistake "character" for "integrity." Ronald Reagan and W are great "characters." They both helped ruin this nation though.

**mwfanelli** · 06-15-2007, 09:21 AM

Well, you look at the bright side of things, I look at the dark side. I have very little confidence in this nation's citizens and much less for politicians and government while you remain optimistic. Of course, voters do count but so few eligible Americans go to the polls. Oh no, there's that negativity again!

As always, I would like you to be right and me to be wrong. That would be great! I just don't think that will happen before we decline past the point of recovery.

**JSPhoto** · 06-15-2007, 01:10 PM

It's no secret that this country is going down hill fast, it's also no secret that one wrong move by ANY government agency (Federal, state or local) could put this country into another civil war, even a politician can push things to the limit....

Actually the first step towards that may have already been taken by Obama when he brought up the "if New Orleans wasn't primarily black we'ed have had federal help sooner" and then mentioning the LA riots, almost as if he were sending a message to start rioting. Just not coming out and actually saying it. This was a very bad move on his part, and in fact I haven't heard a thing about him since that day.....but if there are riots it very well could start a civil war as tensions are already high nationwide, especially between blacks and Hispanics who are fighting over the drug trade in many large cities.

What Bush has done since he has been in office is bring more control over Americans and other countries. There is no denying much of what Bush has done is illegal, but he is just a puppet for Cheney and Haliburton, a company making billions off the American taxpayers and bleeding the economy dry with help of the oil companies.

So when did things start getting so bad? If you look at recent history the first major push to force Americans to conform to a federal law was when the govt. forced states to require all drivers or their vehicles (depending on how the law is in your area) to be insured. Previously it was 'suggested" that you be insured. Then it was pollution controls for manufactuers required on all vehicles. Then it was the seatbelt law. Once the goverment found they could force Americans to do what they want it then spread like wildfire from the federal level to state and local levels. Now we have neghborhood associations who tell us what we can or can't do with our own property and Americans have become sheep following a host of idiots for shepherds.

Where else in the world could people vote to put a president in office who can't complete a sentence correctly. Even the most evil of world leaders through history weren't half as dumb as Bush, yet Americans continue to follow instead of impeach him. His immigration plan is about as dumb a move as he has made....just another of the moves to drain resources from the economy.

JS

**walterick** · 06-15-2007, 10:05 PM

I actually wasn't thinking of it as "negative." I thought you were afraid - afraid for the way of life you know being washed down the drain, afraid that your liberties are being eroded silently, with no watching or calling it out. I think that's why you made this post, was to call attention to injustice where you see it being largely ignored.

I can't fault you for any of that.

**photophorous** · 06-16-2007, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by walterick

I actually wasn't thinking of it as "negative." I thought you were afraid - afraid for the way of life you know being washed down the drain, afraid that your liberties are being eroded silently, with no watching or calling it out. I think that's why you made this post, was to call attention to injustice where you see it being largely ignored.

I can't fault you for any of that.

I'm afraid too. It's not that this nation is in an irreversible downward spiral so much as it is in a weakened state. America is very resilient, but this resiliency has been diminished greatly by slow changes in the way our government operates. The President has too much power, the Congress is controlled by the lobbyists, and the people don't have a clue because the media isn't doing it's job. Slow creeping changes can go unnoticed for long enough to allow us to reach a tipping point before the average American Idol fan notices that anything has even changed. That's what worries me. Another catastrophic terrorist attack could be enough for Bush to call martial law and end our democracy for ever. That is less likely now than it was a few years ago, but I don't think it's something to be dismissed as impossible. We must constantly question and critique our government, and not grow complacent. Otherwise a Democracy can't function. We're so proud of our country, yet half of the citizens don't even participate by voting. W's low approval ratings and the general outrage at all of the things that are going wrong is a beginning towards turning things around, but it still requires some competent leaders to step up and take charge. So far, I don't see that happening. I don't see an electable Democratic candidate, and I think the Republicans are only anti-Bush at this point because they know they have to be to get elected. The changes I see happening are superficial changes, made as an attempt to gain power. As soon as we get past the blame game that's going on now, I think we'll be back to business as usual. Where that will lead, there's no telling.

**walterick** · 06-16-2007, 09:37 PM

So, what are the answers? What will it take to turn us around?

**masdog** · 06-17-2007, 02:05 PM

I tend to waffle on this issue between the dark view and the positive view. I believe that most Americans, if they could pull themselves away from the TV and open a newspaper or read a variety of sources of news on the Internet, would be pissed about the direction their country is heading.

But we are too distracted. Between 24-hour soundbyte news (CNN, Fox News) and the growing entertainment industry (aka Idol), we're placing ourselves in a bad spot. No one pays attention to what little news we get.

I used to watch the nightly national news when I was in high school. That kinda fell by the wayside when I was in college. But the last coupe of times I tuned in, it wasn't even worth watching. What I consider major news (like what is going on in Iraq, state of national politics) was reduced to a couple of brief minutes while the featured stories were about some feel-good thing that really didn't matter.

Now, I admit, my news watching experience isn't great. I really prefer to get my news off of the Intertubes where I can create my own newsfeeds from a variety of sources.

**masdog** · 06-17-2007, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by walterick

So, what are the answers? What will it take to turn us around?

Its not that simple, and it could take years to turn it around. There are several answers to that question, and each could be right and wrong depending on the part of the country.

There needs to be a change in the media. It is currently depicting America as either conservative or liberal, but I believe that most Americans exist in the center, not on the edges. We need to recognize that fact and work our policy in those areas, not create policy that caters to some nutjob on the fringe (AKA...Bush).

We also need to start electing politicians with some backbone. We need politicians who will stand on principle and do the right thing. Unfortunately, I don't think our voters will have that in campaigns that have turned into mud-slinging negative festivities. Politicians who vote to raise taxes or cut social programs will get hammered by their opponents in the next election, and their work will be quickly undone.

We also need to end the attitude of entitlement that many Americans, and some of our illegal immigrants, possess. Everyone thinks they deserve the world, and they ask the government to give it to them.

There are no quick and easy fixes on this...and focusing on domestic issues like abortion and illegal immigration will only serve to divide us more.

**photophorous** · 06-18-2007, 10:58 AM

I think the first thing that needs to be addressed is that the average person isn't aware of the problems, or how to put them into perspective, and isn't involved in finding a solution. If people became more aware, and felt empowered to participate in finding a solution, things would turn around. I don't claim to be an expert, but this is how I see things.

First, a lot of people have no faith in "the system." They think voting is a waste of time, because all they see is a bunch of rich white guys getting caught for bribes, cutting deals that benefit their buddies' corporations, taking excessive private jet trips, etc. Combine that with the fact that these Representatives don't represent their constituents and you have a general feeling of helplessness. Our Representatives need to change the way they do things and get their constituents more involved; how about some surveys, more public appearances, more information sharing. Or, they should at least make their constituents feel like they're involved, so more people will want to pay attention, participate, and vote. MTV voter participation drives aren't enough. Campaign finance reform would be a good first step.

Second, the media needs to start doing it's job. These things are all tied together. The people can't feel like they are part of this democracy if they don't know what's going on, nor can they hold their Representatives accountable. People are either getting too little information or the wrong information. The media needs to spend more time covering important things and less time covering Britney and Paris Hilton. They should fact check every thing our politicians say. All they do now is tell us so-and-so said "this," and the opposition says "that." That doesn't help. They need to research the facts and present them to us in an unbiased way. Otherwise, we have no way to tell who's lying. Our politicians and their advisors have gotten way too good at rhetoric. They seldom answer the questions they're asked, but instead they say something that leaves people with a warm fuzzy feeling and no information. It's the media's job to point out when that is happening, so people aren't fooled by the BS. Instead, they just repeat the BS, which is exactly what the politicians want. If there was a BS buzzer at the Presidential debates, I have a feeling there would be a lot more real answers.

Third, we need to fix our system of checks and balances. The President has too much power. The President is not supposed to start a war. Congress is supposed to decide when war is necessary and then empower the Commander in Chief to lead us through it. Another thing...Presidential signing statements are unconstitutional. What gives the President the right to sign a bill into law with the caveat that he can choose to ignore it whenever he feels like it? It's deceptive, at the very least. A lot of people in this country believe that the President can legally do just about anything he wants to. That's not true, but there has been a precedent. If Congress lets the President get away with anything, who else can stop it? This is yet another thing that lends to a feeling of helplessness among the citizens, and it's slowly edging closer and closer to what our founding fathers where trying to avoid.

Fourth, our education system is a disgrace. If people aren't educated about the other cultures in our world, the history of our country, the inner workings of our government, the English language, and the indisputable science of our physical world, how are they ever going to make any sense of the rhetoric coming from our politicians? I can't believe how excited people get about tiny little tax cuts that have no effect on their standard of living, yet they don't care that our schools are all underfunded and their kids are getting a crappy education. The percentage of scientific breakthroughs being made in this country is slowly decreasing. Less and less of the best scientists from around the world want to immigrate to the US to study and work, because it's no longer the obvious best choice it once was.

Basically, this is what I think it comes down to. Our country was founded with the intent that the citizens would have a say in how the government is run. Technically we still do, but in reality, with all the challenges I described above, most people don't think their vote makes any difference. Our democracy isn't completely broken, but it's sputtering along on two flat tires and hemorrhaging oil. The last election was nothing more than a can of fix-a-flat.

Paul

**mwfanelli** · 06-18-2007, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by photophorous

Our Representatives need to change the way they do things and get their constituents more involved; how about some surveys, more public appearances, more information sharing. Or, they should at least make their constituents feel like they're involved, so more people will want to pay attention, participate, and vote. MTV voter participation drives aren't enough. Campaign finance reform would be a good first step.

That's the point! Politicians are so self-serving they WON'T do these things. Greed rules their lives. To become a politician means to lust for power, money, and privilige. Public service is nothing more than lip service. There are no good politicians out there!

Campaign finance reform won't work because it is unconstitutional. Many politicans voted for it knowing it would fail on that basis alone.

Second, the media needs to start doing it's job... All they do now is tell us so-and-so said "this," and the opposition says "that." That doesn't help. They need to research the facts and present them to us in an unbiased way. Otherwise, we have no way to tell who's lying.

But who in the media has the one best "unbiased" way to present the facts? The "yes and no talking heads" is the only way, as bad as it is, to stay neutral. Do you really want the obvious radical right wing bias of Fox News or the very liberal slant of the New York Times? What is good analysis for you may be bad analysis for me. An educated public can determine these things on their own. Too bad we don't have one.

Third, we need to fix our system of checks and balances. The President has too much power. The President is not supposed to start a war. Congress is supposed to decide when war is necessary and then empower the Commander in Chief to lead us through it... If Congress lets the President get away with anything, who else can stop it? This is yet another thing that lends to a feeling of helplessness among the citizens, and it's slowly edging closer and closer to what our founding fathers where trying to avoid.

The Republican congress licked Bush's butt so eagerly that they gave up all the power they had. The Democrats this year caved on the first critical test showing that they sold off their backbones a long time ago. You can't have a division of power if one third of the government is so willing to give their portion away.

I can't believe how excited people get about tiny little tax cuts that have no effect on their standard of living, yet they don't care that our schools are all underfunded and their kids are getting a crappy education. The percentage of scientific breakthroughs being made in this country is slowly decreasing. Less and less of the best scientists from around the world want to immigrate to the US to study and work, because it's no longer the obvious best choice it once was.

The problem with education is so deep that more money won't solve the problem. I am a certified high school teacher but I decided to teach at a college because of the TERRIBLE way that public schools are being run. More of the same just won't fix anything. I have done a full about-face on the education issue. No more tenure for public school teachers, Collect school taxes but allow parents to choose the educational system their child gets with their money. Provide much more support for home schooling.

We also have to bring all these wild politicians to a halt. Colorado has the Tabor Amendment, a fantastic referendum created by a first-class a**hole but it works none the less. The state must have a balanced budget each year. Politicians must get voter approval for all new tax increases. Any extra money collected that goes over the budget is returned to the taxpayers. Property taxes are capped unless increases are approved by the voters. Politicians scream and yell and predict the sky is falling every year but the system continues to work. If we could introduce something like this to every state and to the federal government, we'd have half a chance to solve at least one of the major problems: corrupt government.

**photophorous** · 06-18-2007, 12:23 PM

Well, I'll say it again. I'm no expert. I don't know exactly the best way to implement these changes, but I stand by my opinion that people are not getting the facts and therefore our democracy is not functioning as intended.