The Death of Science in the USA

[Michael Fanelli]

Off-Topic has turned out to be a good idea. Such clever people on this site!

Facinating article about the decline of real science in the US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4172504.stm

As science becomes mired more and more in politics and religion, what will we be left with? Is US science and mathematics headed for the same massive decline that the Middle East suffered over 1000 years ago when Islam exerted its influence? The rest of the world gets smarter, we get dumber. I see this in many of my own students, a blantent disregard for the scientific method in favor of religion, mythology, and general "easy way out" thinking.

Opinions?

[Asylum Steve]

Interesting piece, Michael. While I agree with you in priciple (or at least find no reason to disagree with you), I also put some weight in this quote from the article:

"...the downward trend...is largely a reflection of rising educational standards around the world, so it's a comparative decline. In real terms, no single country can even come close to matching the US in the total scientific investment by government, corporations and foundations."

Without having any facts or figures on any of this, I'd venture to guess the reasons for a decline go hand in hand with the basic decline in the overall educational skills of our young people in general.

And while I am not at all a fan of this administration, I think it's a bit of a stretch for anyone to place all the blame squarely on the shoulders of Mr. Bush & Company...

[Michael Fanelli]

"...the downward trend...is largely a reflection of rising educational standards around the world, so it's a comparative decline. In real terms, no single country can even come close to matching the US in the total scientific investment by government, corporations and foundations."

But even a comparative decline is dangerous. What this says is that the rest of the world is getting smarter while we are treading water. Just how long can we live off of inertia? What happens as more and more engineers and scientists retire? I dread to think of any of my engineering students designing so much as a bridge!

Without having any facts or figures on any of this, I'd venture to guess the reasons for a decline go hand in hand with the basic decline in the overall educational skills of our young people in general.

Definately. This is what I see all the time now.

And while I am not at all a fan of this administration, I think it's a bit of a stretch for anyone to place all the blame squarely on the shoulders of Mr. Bush & Company...

As much as I dislike that coward Bush, he doesn't have the skill or intelligence to be responsible for this. The problem is partially due to the growing efforts of the religious right along with the strong devaluing of education in the home. America has been based on taking the easy way out ever since my youngest sister (11 years younger than I) was in high school. Its gotten worse every year since. Bush is only guilty for the uncontrolled expansion of federal power that is encouraging and pushing for the teaching of nonsense in the schools.

[drg]

Science has been somewhat in decline in the US for much of my 25 year of adult life.

My first reaction to the article was to consider the source. The BBC as it is currently staffed is not particularly fond of anything non-Socialist in agenda. The sources and statistics are 'crafted' to portray a situation, though approaching dire, that is not quite what it seems. As and example: Sure we are sixth on the list of the percentage of money we spend. That amount is bigger than the top five put together because of the massive comparitive size of our economy. Statistics don't lie . . .

I should quickly add that I'm no dogmatic, rabid supporter of much of this current administration nor of many of the other elected officials at the Federal level. In Illinois we've got some real winners. Democrat or Republican much of the blame isn't a federal funding problem alone.

American Industry and Business abandoned support of pure research almost entirely by the end of the 80's (partially a "Peace Dividend" from the Cold War end) and concentrated on the development of Technology (read "saleable product") and Strategic investment.

The destruction or all but total dismantling of institutions such as Westinghouse Labs, Watson Research Labs, Bell Labs, PARC, and so on in itself made for monumental changes. Sure, there's Research at these institutions, but it's for Science and Technology not just in science. Look at the convolutions the Hewlett-Packard has put itself through trying to be a 'bigger' company for its shareholders. Wealth is great, but anybody can and has sold ink. I want better ink, a lot better ink.

Now it is all about what can be applied, and much of this in many fields including Computer Science has gone in the direction of Application. I can tell horror stories about Honors Graduates from Purdue who can't do long division, two months after graduation. That was 16-17 years back. No matter what level of complexity, a degree should never be granted in a shrink wrapped computer application. Oh, sorry forgot that technical MBA's were a degree in LOTUS 1-2-3 at on point in time.

Of course I'd like the world to be as scientifically proficient as we are (were?) Certain democratic principles and intellectual commonalities transfer with the territory. The more people thinking about certain things, (not necessarily working feverishly mind you) the greater chance for progress to occur. Takes education and exposure. But we have to remember that science isn't democratic in itself.

Much of the current problem can be directly laid at the feet of the Internet boom and bust and, shall we call it "The Tech Era" of the 90's where a lot of erroneous philsophy emerged about what was needed. We as a result have scads of unemployed engineers who at age 30 are going to need close to another 4 years of education to be technically proficient enough to hire. We still have legacy employees, that were intentionally left behind in the name of speed and efficacy, in the workplace who are running Tape Drive IBM OS from the sixties who are not ready for retirement and are vague about what a PC does.

Would better science education have remedied this? Probably not. But we also in the course of this abandonded alot of what we did have going for something that is now the debris generated by intellectual and educational junk food.

I'll stand down from the soapbox for the moment.

[darkman]

This is really nothing new. Natural born American's have been a minority in the science and engineering graduate departments for some time. Now many of these people, especially Indian and Chinese, have the opportunity to go home and use their skills. I deal with people in these countries and much of the companies management and engineering staff are highly trained and skilled people who have spent many years in there respective positions here in the USA working for American companies. This, and money, is part of the reason so many jobs are being outsourced. Though I see the money part as temporary. Many of these people are well compensated in comparison to their local economies. The scale of economies will catch up.

Basic research at our national labs is also on the decline. There's a "what have you done for me lately" and the need to have the word "anti-terrorist" in your research to get funding. While I believe in accountability, it can also be construed and misused in many ways. In many instances the work theorists are coming up with may not have an initial purpose or an application. Some of the research may never have a purpose other than to contribute knowledge about the world around us.