SB-600 on a Film Camera?

[photophorous]

I guess I have two questions.

First, is there any reason to believe using an SB-600 on a non-Nikon film camera (Minolta x-370, or Voigtlander Bessa R2A) would cause any damage to either the camera or the flash? I know old flashes on new cameras can be bad, but as far as I know, a new flash on an old camera is ok, right?

Second, is there any way to set up the flash in some kind of semi-auto mode, or do I have to fall back on using guide number calculations or a flash meter? All I really want to do is bounce the flash off the ceiling, and I'm trying to avoid buying a flash meter.

I'm pretty ignorant about flash photography, so any advice is appreciated. I've used some of the fancy i-TTL stuff with my D70s, but I'm lost when it comes to actually doing it myself.

Thanks,
Paul

[oldgearhead]

I guess I have two questions.

First, is there any reason to believe using an SB-600 on a non-Nikon film camera (Minolta x-370, or Voigtlander Bessa R2A) would cause any damage to either the camera or the flash? I know old flashes on new cameras can be bad, but as far as I know, a new flash on an old camera is ok, right?

Second, is there any way to set up the flash in some kind of semi-auto mode, or do I have to fall back on using guide number calculations or a flash meter? All I really want to do is bounce the flash off the ceiling, and I'm trying to avoid buying a flash meter.

I'm pretty ignorant about flash photography, so any advice is appreciated. I've used some of the fancy i-TTL stuff with my D70s, but I'm lost when it comes to actually doing it myself.

Thanks,
Paul

1) No problem. I've used mine on my 1938 Univex CC1500, as well as my F3HP.

2) No sem-auto with the SB600. It doesn't even have a varistor-sensor, like the old Vivitar 283. You will have to set the SB600 to manual and adjust the output with the fractional numbers. However, if your bouncing, you will probaby need full 1/1 power.

3) Flash meter? - Off-camera, I use my D70's instant feedback display and histogram. Then transpose those settings to the film camera.

Summary - I only use my SB600 on-camera/D70 with a Flip-it in TTL mode. For off-camera and multiple flash, I use 2-3 Vivitar 283/VP-1s and RF triggers. Most of the time for on-camera flash with the F3 I just use a 283 with the light sensor attached.
Low standby voltage Vivitar 283s can be found for 30-60 USD. Look for one made in China
or Korea. Most of the ones made in Japan are 220VDC, or higher.

[photophorous]

...Most of the time for on-camera flash with the F3 I just use a 283 with the light sensor attached...

Thanks for the reply. It's good to know that the combo won't hurt anything. I figured I could use the D70 as a meter, but I'd rather not have to tote it around. I didn't realize the SB-600 lacked a sensor, but I also don't really know how that's supposed to work.

In the quote above, is that what you're talking about? How do you operate the flash in that mode?

Thanks,
Paul

[oldgearhead]

Paul, the SB600 in 'auto exposure modes' is 'told' by the camera when to cut-off
(end of proper exposure). Therefore, it will only work, in 'auto mode' with late model cameras. Several older speed-lights, like the Vivitar 283 have a cut-off that is controlled
by the a sensor on the flash. Therefore, are capable of 'semi-auto exposure' with about any camera.

I guess what I was trying to say is the SB600 will work with a film camera, but
determining the correct exposure with out a flash meter (or at least a DSLR) is
next to impossible.
Even though I have tried my SB600, in manual mode on a couple of my film cameras,
a better choice is to just buy a flash that is more compatible with your film cameras.
The trend toward the 'sensor in the camera' (TTL/Through_The_Lens) approach started many years ago, and most manufacturer's have developed speed-lights that work this way. They are generally not cross-platform compatible.

I would not use my SB600 on-camera with my F3HP because it's a pain to determine the exposure.
I would not use a Vivitar 283 on my D70, because it just doesn't do as good a job as the
SB600.

[another view]

I'm surprised that the SB600 doesn't have a non-TTL "A" mode like so many other Nikon flashes. I see that the only choice for a camera that isn't Nikon and doesn't have their TTL is full manual which IMO isn't very useful for this type of flash.

You might want to look at one of their older flashes like the SB-28 which I have, and it has a non-TTL auto mode. Set the aperture on the lens at (example) f5.6, plug this into the flash and the flash's sensor does the rest. Of course you need to compensate for bouncing the light off the ceiling, etc but at least with neg film the results are pretty consistent.

The SB28 is the newest Nikon flash I have... I know the SB26 will do it, and it is a little bigger but it also has an optical slave which might come in handy some day. I have assisted a friend where he would shoot with one flash on the camera and I'd hold the SB26 on a monopod with the wide angle diffuser on to create a little more depth. Both of these sell for under $100 these days, and fully compatible with up to the F5 and F100. 283's are a classic - can't go wrong with them but if you ever plan on a Nikon TTL film camera you might really want to consider one of their flashes.

On a side note - for the best compatibility, get the flash designed to work with the camera. I had an N8008s when I first got an SB28. It did everything except rear curtain sync, and I'd need an SB24 for that because at that time the flash controlled rear curtain sync. When I got an F100, I was all set with the SB28 because the camera controlled rear curtain sync (not that I use it much). Why do I remember this stuff?!

[deckcadet]

The SB-600 isn't the top of the line flash, and the SB-800, which is, does have a light sensor with non-TTL A mode.

[photophorous]

Thank you all for the detailed responses. I think I understand how the SB-600 works in TTL mode, and manual mode. A while back, I tried to find an "A" mode and was never able to figure it out, which is why I posted this question. Now I know. But, I'm still not sure I understand how a non-TTL "A" mode works with other flashes, so please let me know if I got this right. You have to tell the flash what f-stop you're using, and it will measure the light output, with a built in sensor, so it knows when to cut off (how bright to flash). Is that right? So, why would I have to compensate if I bounce the flash? Wouldn't the sensor still measure the flash intensity?

So...a related question. Would one of the older Nikon flashes do anything on my N75 that the SB-600 can't? The SB-600 would still be able to use TTL information from the N75 to calculate flash intensity, right?

It's dissapointing to find out the SB-600 can't do something that all the older flashes do. I didn't realize that when I got it. Now I don't know if it makes more sense to buy one of the older flashes or an incident/flash meter. Both could come in handy in other situations.

Thanks,
Paul

[another view]

I think you've got it right, except the sensor on the flash doesn't measure flash output. I'm not sure actually what it measures, but it won't know if you're bouncing the light so you could start with a +2 compensation on the flash, with neg film this should be close enough but will depend on ceiling height and color. Using a colored ceiling with color film isn't a good idea, but possible with B&W although the ceiling doesn't have to be far off of pure white to lose a lot of reflectivity. Gray cards are 18% reflective compared to a bright white ceiling that is probably 80% - possibly more, but not much.

TTL does measure flash output, so compensation isn't necessary 'for average results'. Of course, TTL flash metering doesn't know the results you want so some experimentation is best. With F100 + SB28, I used to do fill flash at about -1-1/3 stop compensation on the flash. This is very different than exposure compensation; you're really dealing with lighting ratios (natural to flash) that studio photographers talk about.

The flash will put out the same amount of light - the output of it is determined by how long the flash tube is actually lit. We're talking about very small fractions of a second so it's not always apparent to the eye.

Check the flash manual, since it's newer than the N75 for compatibility. I'd guess the N75 has TTL flash because it's a pretty new camera compared to an FM, etc. Even my 21 year old FA has TTL but it was one of the first. And I'd choose a different flash over a meter for manual exposure with it - very complicated in comparison.

[oldgearhead]

I think maybe we have gotten a bit 'carried away' in this thread. The SB600 is
a fantastic speed-light to use on-camera in 'P' mode with 'matrix metering' this
is the normal auto mode (camera/flash does it all). The SB600 also makes a fine
slave in either the Nikon CLS mode or in 'manual mode' with conventional slaves.
The SB600, street price, is about 135USD less then the SB800.

Three features it doesn't have are:
1) On-board exposure sensor.
2) A pc connection, it's hot shoe only.
3) It cannot be a used as a 'commander' in the Nikon CLS system.

[another view]

I think maybe we have gotten a bit 'carried away' in this thread.

I disagree - nothing wrong with the SB600 but the original post was about using this flash with older cameras. For that purpose, it seems very limited. I'm sure that most SB600 buyers aren't in this situation, but it's good to note that there are compatibility issues. This has always been the case, going back many years. Actually it's the case with everything, really! Nothing against Nikon, I've been using their stuff for years and wouldn't change.

Another well known brand changed lens mounts, and at least with Nikon there was a chance of using old glass on new cameras. Even moreso today, looking at what is possible with programming manual lens info with D200.

Using a SB600 with a newer iTTL compatible DSLR is great though!

[photophorous]

This has been a very helpful thread for me. I appreciate all the info.

The SB-600 has worked great on my D70s. No complaints there. I also use it manually, on a stand with an umbrella, to do some portraits...but not that often. I find that the CLS makes people blink when used with the umbrella, but it works well for other things. Manual is easy when you can just check the histogram. I think the SB-600 will probably do everything I need with my N75 too, so I'm considering getting a Vivitar 283 for use on my manual film cameras. It could also be used as a second light for portraits.

Paul