Out Takes

[Loupey]

Bevb brought up a good point about manual focusing in-flight stuff. I'm still trying to get a good one

Although I'm faster manual focusing the 300mm (though not as fast as the 70-200), I'm used to stationary/hovering objects. Continuously focusing an approaching bird is tough to say the least!

Anyway, I keep stuff like this so that I can learn from them. Perhaps posting the "bad" is just as informative as the "good"?


This sequence from this past Monday (not the sequence involving the cardinal). I did take the 2x off the 300mm for this.

Manual focus / manual exposure
1/350s
f/5.6
ISO 400
handheld
full frame

[Loupey]

These four from last Thursday. Again, all manual focus/manual exposure, full frame, handheld.

However, these 4 are all with the 300mm + 2x.

The first one is: 1/500s, f/11, ISO 400
The next three are: 1/1000s, f/11, ISO 800

[Old Timer]

Well it's just good to know that you are human too. I was beginning to have my doubts with the quality of images you post. Now I know that like most of us you too have a trash can.

[Bevb]

Thanks for demonstrating this Loupey as i was beginning to think that manual focusing moving objects, especially fast birds was just my problem, your first set of images here are exactly what im getting, do you use one focus point or multi? Whatever, your reply here has motivated me to get out and challenge this, but you certainly have to be fast on the focus ring for this project!

[Copy_Kot]

Well it's just good to know that you are human too. I was beginning to have my doubts with the quality of images you post. Now I know that like most of us you too have a trash can.

I was thinking the same thing

I'm not sure that this board could support all of my "out takes." Here is one that I really wish would have turned out better. Manual focus using my Canon 300mm f/4L and 2X T/C

[Bevb]

Good example Copy i have'nt managed to get anything focused when i have had my 2X on using manual, im going to practice really hard this week!

[Copy_Kot]

I'll be practicing too Bev. I was so sure I had that duck in focus when I took the pic... I couldn't wait to get home.

Bev and Loupey are way up on my list of favorite photog's on this site. Knowing that they have some "out takes," keeps me from wanting to give up so easily... hope that didn't sound bad

[WTP07]

Just to give you an idea of my 'shooting percentage' (little hockey influence there) I have run 11,167 shots through my XT since October 28th. Of those, I probably have 300 or so that are keepers. (Not including multiple shots of the same bird/animal while I wait for it to move/turn)
Of those 300 or so that are keepers, I have so far deemed 18 good enough to print, frame and hang on the wall. My pct. is getting better of course, and I am not taking 125 shots of the same duck anymore, but it is still a huge ratio. Auto focusing with the 400mm helps, esp when in AI Servo mode. Unfortunately, my setup does not allow for AF with the 2X TC on the 400. Focusing on a laterally moving object is tough manually (especially with 800mm, as your FOV is roughly the size of a Halliburton executive's conscience.) Focusing on an object moving toward or away from you with that setup is sheer luck. I am really excited about trying some baseball shots this summer though....I hope my XT shutter mechanism holds up through the summer!

R.

[Loupey]

OT: LOL! My trash can is a dumpster With so many uncontrollable variables, failure is the norm - success is simply persistance. Quite the extreme opposite from shooting models in a studio.

Bev: No focusing points. My (9?) points are all de-activated with the 2x anyway. I compose first, focus second. Truthfully, I can't even see the points anymore when I'm out because I tune them out altogether. If I could replace the focusing screen with a plain matte one, I would.

Copy: that is a HUGE compliment! A good way to practice anytime/anywhere is to think like you're sharpshooting. Swing you camera at anything and focus and shoot and keep doing it. You'll soon notice how fast you can move your camera around. Use your images as feedback to how well your accuracy is.

WTP07: you're right - I was just thinking along the same lines today. I don't like to think in percentages but rather like "did I get a wallhanger today?" If elements don't quite work out, I don't shoot. But if they do, I'll milk it for everything I got. Example: the recent Brown Thrasher on a snow branch - I took perhaps 60 shots in about 90 seconds. As it tilted his head this way, shifted his body that way, as I changed composition this way, as I altered the exposure this way and that... They all look very similar. At full magnification on the camera, I'll delete 1/3 right away because the focus is off just a hair or there is subject movement. Then, I'll delete another 1/3 because they are near duplicates of others. The final 1/3 I'll review on the computer. I'll choose 3 to 5 "finalists" to process. In the end, I'll keep 1 (two if I'm really lucky).

When I finally found a praying mantis last year, I believe I blew through 200 frames and got 5 or 6 different perspectives and 2 or 3 portfolio keepers. 1 that I would print.

[Loupey]

Critical focusing is so vital with extreme telephotos and macros. And as the subject gets closer, the more critical the focus needs to be and the shallower the DOF will get. You can't expect auto focus to get exactly what you want. You've got to actively hunt for it.

Example: these two images are extremely high level crops of two frames. The top one didn't make the final cut even though it was the one I had hoped would make it (because it isn't a complete profile and the beak was open). Compare the eye ring (which is always my focus target and not the eye itself) and the feathers around it. Focus is just a smidgen forward and the DOF is too shallow to make this image good enough. Compare it to the one below it which was taken 5 frames after the top one.

One last hint about manual focusing: Every few frames, intentionally "unfocus" from both directions then move back in focus. Coming in from both sides will provide a higher percentage that a few will be "exactly" in focus. If you never move the focus or only come in from one direction (from infinity for example), your focus point may be shifted to one direction resulting in all your images being "off".

[Loupey]

One last recent example

Auto focus would have been fooled by the foreground branches. Even if you could get it to focus on the cardinal, where on the cardinal? The bird is moving, you are swaying, branches are moving - don't expect the AF to lock in and hold that eye. You are looking at a pixel-level crop (i.e. no scaling down to fit this image size) of an ISO 400 image with 300mm + 2x.

If there is one thing I hope to accomplish here at PR, it is that I hope I can convince people to use manual controls. You are smarter, better, and faster than the camera

Good night.

[Bevb]

Once again thanks Loupey all these tips are so helpful, i find when i have been using manual, that when i think i have got the right exposure and SSpeed for my subject, the SSpeed is so low i could never get a flying or fast moving subject even a tad sharp, and then when i put the SSpeed up to what i want, the image is so dark/underexposed, what am i doing wrong here?, i am using the 100-400mm mostly at approx 35/7mm which i find this lense is sharpest at, but i am having the same with the 70-200L f2.8.
Also you mentioned if you could get a matte focus screen instead of a plain one you would, i recently posted a question re these screens, all i know is they help with manual focusing, and for my 1D MKllN there is about 6 different screens you can get, and i would like to know what each one does? if you can help here, great!.

Finally, Copy, i have to second what Loupey said about your very kind compliment, thank you, it means alot.
I can go out for a couple of hours with the camera and take approx 50/100 photos say, and i tell myself if i come home with 1 image that is sharp, colour correct and composition how i wanted, and its printable, im a happy lady!

[Loupey]

Bev, it sounds like when you're changing the shutter speed, you're not compensating with the aperture. So as you increase your shutter speed, your going further and further underexposed. Remember, they always work in tandem, equally but in opposite directions - decrease exposure with shutter speed, increase exposure with aperture.

As for the focusing screens, yeah Canon's description is non-existent. I don't know how these EOS screens work with the internal AF detection sensors. From my knowledge of the different screens with the OLD F-1 film SLRs, they probably have similar different styles: plain matte, split microprism, center diamond matte, architectual grid, and a few more that I can't recall. Some are better suited for macro and telephoto work than others. When there was no such thing as Auto Focus, the plain matte screen was generally better for this type of work as it allowed accurate focus to be seen anywhere on the screen (and not just in the center area) and did not "black out" as the split screens did with slower lenses.

I have a complete EOS catalog at home (before everyone stopped printing catalogs, pamphlets, handouts, etc). I will check to see what screens are currently available for your camera.

edit: bev, try this link to B&H - of these, I think Ec-R will provide the best unobstructed view yet still allow spot metering.

[OBie]

Well well well - Loupey is human!!! LOL - couldn't resist - that was my first thought when I opened this thread. Having said that Loupey, THANK YOU! You have given me hope!

First was seeing and hearing how many images you go through to get a 'good' one (I know that good photogs go through a lot, but seeing actual numbers was great).

Second, to see up close and personal what makes a keeper vs. trash. Focus on the eye ring - it's little things like that that will help us all tremendously.

I've been giving manual focus a go, but once I turned 40, my once perfect eyes started pulling a cruel trick on me and I now need glass for distances. I can't seem to focus very well manually with them, or without. (And most of the time I was blaming the lens ) HOWEVER - maybe I'm not giving it enough chance. I might have taken 20-30 shots that weren't tack sharp, so I gave up. Persistence is not my middle name.

I am now motivated! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

[Loupey]

Here's a shot that I'm particularly fond of (because it was so strenuous) from last spring. I've posted it before so my apologies - but demonstrating that manual focus is sometimes the only way to go.

This dragonfly was patrolling a small area over a pond. I noticed that his flight pattern had some regularity to it so I gave it a go. At the time I didn't have the 300mm nor the 30D so I used the 70-200mm zoom with the 2x on my 10D. It took 20 long minutes of tracking, zooming, and focusing (and sweating) to finally get this. I only snapped around 30 images because I never have used the 10D's slow continuous shooting mode. AF would never even have come close since it was difficult enough just getting the bugger in the frame.

The spec's: MF/ME, 1/1000s, f/8, ISO 400, 385mm, near full frame.

[Bevb]

Many thanks Loupey for the tip regarding Sspeed and aperature in manual mode im going to keep working on it, and the link you gave me was very helpful, much more info on each screen to read about. Thankyou.

[Loupey]

Bev, I have my catalog in front of me and it turns out that you actually have a choice of 13 different focusing screens. One in particular may be of interest to you, since it is exactly what we are talking about here, and it is made only for the 1DmkIIN - it is Ec-S (Super Precision Matte). I'll quote Canon here:

"An all-matte focus screen for the EOS-1D Mark II N with finer microlens structure than the standard screens. Out-of-focus areas show more vividly than with the other Ec type screens. It's ideally suited for use with f/2.8 and faster lenses, especially for manual focusing."

It also states that all screens come with the special tool for removing the original screen and installing the new one.

Hope that helps.

[Bevb]

Bev, I have my catalog in front of me and it turns out that you actually have a choice of 13 different focusing screens. One in particular may be of interest to you, since it is exactly what we are talking about here, and it is made only for the 1DmkIIN - it is Ec-S (Super Precision Matte). I'll quote Canon here:

"An all-matte focus screen for the EOS-1D Mark II N with finer microlens structure than the standard screens. Out-of-focus areas show more vividly than with the other Ec type screens. It's ideally suited for use with f/2.8 and faster lenses, especially for manual focusing."

It also states that all screens come with the special tool for removing the original screen and installing the new one.

Hope that helps.

Thanks Loupey and sorry i had'nt seen this reply sooner.

At last i have some clearer details on these screens, im going to be looking into the one you suggested. many thanks Loupey.