Expanding on the "Baiting" Issue - What about Zoos?

[Loupey]

I don't agree with baiting to get a shot but what about photographing animals in captivity? I do it to test out equipment and to get practice or to get animal-people interaction shots. I've not passed off any shot from a zoo as those from the "wild". Does one take a don't-ask/don't-tell attitude? If not, do we put a disclaimer on it stating that it is a captured shot? What about parks and preserves? I know this last one is a stretch to ask from anyone but these are the ethics questions that swirl around in my head.

Personally, I don't think any manipulation on nature is "right". I don't carry a spray bottle, flash, reflector, etc. when I'm out shooting nature. I know I won't get as many great shots but I find it gratifying when I do get that shot. However, I have been known to move that occassional twig or leaf out of the scene. Guilty as charged!

[SmartWombat]

I think you can afford your principles if you're not shooting to a deadline, for payment.
If you're shooting for stock or an agency and completing the IPTC tags, then your location information would make it clear your shots weren't from Arfrica. Then don't tell/don't ask isn't an option

[paulnj]

There is nothing wrong with throwing a pile of apples out to get a deer image or shooting birds near a bird feeder, but some baiting practices are far too unethical ! Zoo images are just that ..ZOO IMAGES of animals. They are not WILDlife images, but are images of "wildlife" in a captive environment(well mostly). I see nothing wrong with taking images at a zoo, but CLAIMING them as wild animals images is not cool.

[Bevb]

Hmmm this could go many ways, but i basically agree with what has already been said, and what your saying, I think nature images should be as "natural" as possible, i also carry no reflectors, spray guns etc and my feelings are the same, if i get one good shot out of 20, as naturally as possible, i am over the moon but i also put food out for the birds with the hope of capturing a good shot of a bird, if i didnt "bait" certain subjects i would be there for ever, and probably with the wildlife in my area chances are, Never! does this make my images "staged"? Zoo's - Hmm another subject i could go on about, but cutting short, yes i have used a zoo once for some of my pictures, but i came away with a bad taste in my mouth (so to speak), purely, feeling that i have used this for my own benefit, on more than one occassion taking images of some very sad looking animals, but there are Zoo's and there are Zoo's, i now would not use one for my own personal gain. A very good subject for debate Loupey, i may of garbled on a bit, but i actually feel like i have just had a confession!!! cheers Bev.

[srobb]

Very, very good discussion on a hot topic. For the most part, I agree with most everything said. I suppose I differ some on zoos. I may never get a chance to do a safari. does that mean I cannot use shots from a zoo for images of those animals seen over there? I don't think so. I do some of my shots on a stock photography site and it is entirely left up to the buyers; they will almost always specify whether it is cool to use captive shots. The only other thing I could see doing is going to like Busch Gardens for their Safari tour. Same difference really.

[Loupey]

Srobb & Bev - THANK YOU for replying to this thread. This was one of my first posts (within the first dozen or so) and my first "philosophical" thread I posted since joining PR. I was disappointed that not more people responded to it because I had some major issues with it.

Having thought about it even more since originally posting it, my stand is even more muddied. In our shrinking world, is anything wild anymore? I too have dreamed of going on a safari, but I would imagine that the people who run the safaris might "entice" some animals to stay nearby by offering protection and/or food. And the very act of people on safaris would acclimate the animals such that they no longer exhibit natural behavior.

So, in relative terms, perhaps photographing in zoos is not that far off from "wild" - especially in today's modern preserves.

The examples below are from "The Wilds" located near Cambridge, Ohio. This 5,000 acre preserve is very safari-like and offers the animals a very natural setting with plenty of room to roam. With facilities such as these, the difference between "real" safaris and "just" zoo pictures becomes even more vague.

[paulnj]

These are not ZOOimages, but GAME PRESERVE images I personally have taken AMAZING images at zoos, but they are (to me) not wildlife images.

PLENTY of published images come from nature preserves(large and small),the exotic pet trade, zoos , falconers and even rehabs. It's not wrong in my eyes unless you call them WILD or misrepresent them as such.

[srobb]

These are not ZOOimages, but GAME PRESERVE images I personally have taken AMAZING images at zoos, but they are (to me) not wildlife images.

PLENTY of published images come from nature preserves(large and small),the exotic pet trade, zoos , falconers and even rehabs. It's not wrong in my eyes unless you call them WILD or misrepresent them as such.

Your last statement says it all, Paul. My feelings exactly and I have seen many request on stock sites that want that specified.

Loupey, where is that place at? Guess I could look at the atlas. I live outside of Lexington so was wondering where it would be from there.

[Loupey]

Loupey, where is that place at? Guess I could look at the atlas. I live outside of Lexington so was wondering where it would be from there.

I'll be home tomorrow so I can't give you fix on it until then. But if you follow I-70 east from Columbus, Ohio towards Cambridge, you'll be in the general vicinity. It's a great place. They only have guided bus tours (either open buses or air conditioned ones) at scheduled times to keep traffic as light as possible. You can get some sweeping views. I can post some more examples if you're interested.

[Loupey]

Unless you haven't already googled it, here's their website

http://www.thewilds.org/

Attached are a few more from my last trip there.


Now here's a crazy thought: I wonder how many people I could convince from PR for a get-together/photo shoot at The Wilds? Kind of like a mini, custom group "safari". Only cheaper. ;)

[mjs1973]

That's only about a 10 1/2 hour drive from here.

[paulnj]

That's only about a 10 1/2 hour drive from here.

Me too... Maybe some day, but Magee Marsh on lake Erie is more my style in early may

[srobb]

More nice shots there, loupey. That could ve doable for me. I don't think it would be too bad a drive. I will have to check it out on map quest maybe. I could always use a vacation day if I have to.


I just checked it out on map quest. It should be a little under 4 hours for me to get there. Is there any one time of the year that would be better to go there?