Medium Format Confusion

[photophorous]

I'm considering buying a used Mamiya 6x7, but I'm confused about what I need. I currently use a modern AF film SLR.

I'm looking at the RB67 and the RZ67. Can anyone tell me if these camera's have built-in light meters? If so, are the any good? Will I need a hand held light meter? I know the used cameras vary in age. How do I know if the old ones have a light meter?

These cameras are so configurable, I can't figure out which accessories I'm going to need. Can anyone give me a general idea of what accessories I should start with, for landscape and artistic shots? I won't be running a studio or anything like that.

Also, how do the lens focal lengths compare to 35mm? I don't know which lenses I should get either.

Anything you can offer would help. This is all very confusing to me, and I can't seem to find a "MF Camera for Dummies" book.

Thanks,
Paul

[drg]

Purchase a light meter (even and inexpensive one). A spot meter or a spot meter capable meter would be the best choice. MF being more expensive to use means you want to waste as little film and time as possible.

Get a a good tripod, one of the heavier Manfrotto with the leg braces (like a video tripod) might be the most economical (for this application) and sturdiest. That way if you are using a heavier lens you are covered.

A cable release for the shutter is also a good idea. This remote device lets you 'lock down' the camera on a tripod and not move the camera while tripping the shutter.

With MF the waist level finder is a standard item but some of the Mamiya's came with an eye lever or low level type finder. I imagine they are still available used for all of them. Many of these are helpful when shooting in very bright light (such as outdoors) unless you want to put a bag over the camera and your head. This might be as good an investment as any.
A split focusing screen is real nice if not an absolute for the 'beginner' as it gives you a quantifiable ability to focus.

A couple of spare backs/magazines are vital. This also means the dark slides as well. Make sure they fit and slide tight, but smoothly. Some less than scrupulous resellers will warp the slides so they seem to be tight (but not to light) so make sure they slide easily but don't wiggle in the slots.

A cleaning, lubrication and adjustment of everything is essential. Particulary shutter, lens, cranks, etc. The adjustments to lens and shutters is vital. These are big units that travel through much greater distance than 35mm and thus wear more and less evenly. Too worn and they are not salvageble nor repairable.

Lenses:

Where do I begin? Probably you will want one really good lens to start. That should cost as much or more than the entire rest of your kit combined(maybe). Generally something in 80-110 range is an average lens for MF users with some liking the 150-180mm length for portrait to short telephoto use. 75 and lower are generally thought of as W.A. by most. I'm accustomed to 6x6 which is not much different at all. The shorter lens lengths are obviously easier to carry around.

Search this site and the web for Medium Format, or start on ebay and look at what is available and then search for the specific lens.

This is only a tiny start. If this sparks more questions, let us know, and there are several here who can answer most question fairly quickly.

Be careful in buying a used MF camera for two reasons:

1. A lot are no longer made or supported. Meaning you may have trouble finding anyone qualified to work on it.

2. A lot of cameras are being sold as they are essential worn out (see No. 1).

Best wishes and let us know what you come up with for a decision.

[mdmc]

For the 35mm equivelent of 6x7 format lenses divide by 2. A 100mm 6x7 lens = 50mm in 35mm format.

[Michael Fanelli]

For the 35mm equivelent of 6x7 format lenses divide by 2. A 100mm 6x7 lens = 50mm in 35mm format.

Only for angle of view. A 100mm lens is still a 100mm lens.

[mdmc]

Only for angle of view. A 100mm lens is still a 100mm lens.

This is Pauls thread, and he asked a specific question in part of his post wich I answerd to the best of my ability, and correctly.
Although your reply is 100% correct I dont think it is elaborate enough to help Paul, and may in fact be confusing.
I don't think he wants to buy 6x7 format lenses to strap to his 35mm camera!
OK, so I'm a jerk.
Mark.

[another view]

No Mark, you're not a jerk. I think what Michael was saying is that the perspective and DOF that you get with a 100mm lens will always stay the same regardless of whether it's on a MF, 35mm or DSLR. However, the angle of view changes like you said.

This is the same topic that we've discussed here before about using 35mm SLR lenses on DSLR cameras with a crop factor (aka "my wide angle lens isn't very wide anymore"). Film shooters who have used different formats have known how this works for years - but many people have only shot 35mm so it's all new to them.

[mdmc]

All lenses have the same perspective, but that doesn't explain that a 55mm 6x7 lens = 28mm 35, 75mm 6x7= 35mm 35,etc.
Mark.

[photophorous]

Thank you all for the comments. I appreciate all your help...but, I still have lots of questions.

I think I understand the lens differences as best as I can with out actually looking through one.

Another subject that really confuses me is light meters. I understand these cameras don't have them, unless you buy the prism finder. So it seems a handheld is probably the best way to go, but what kind? A spot meter sounds ideal, but those get expensive really fast. I'm pretty uneducated when it comes to all the gadgetry involved with photography. How does someone use an ambient light or a flash meter? Which kind do I really need, and what features and/or brand names should I look for?

This is going to be more expensive than I originally thought. Keeping in mind that I'm trying to keep the cost down, does the following sound like a decent start-up kit?

Camera body (probably RZ67)
(1) 120 film back
waist level finder
90 mm lens
good tripod
some kind of light meter?
cable release

Thank you!

Paul

[another view]

Yes, other than you'll probably want to add some lenses as budget allows. It's probably best to double or halve the focal length for the next lenses (like a 45 and 180, or close to it).

If you're taking the time to use MF, then taking a little extra time to use a handheld separate meter will usually give you more accurate results. Check out the Sekonic L358 meter. It's a really good deal on a meter that does ambient incident metering, reflected and flash metering. They have a one-degree spot meter accessory for it too - it's one more thing to carry but it works pretty well.

[mdmc]

These are the legs I bought. Good investment. Top quality for less $$$.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
Mark.

[drg]

That's a start for a kit. I'd still get a second film back, then you can have one loaded and ready to go or have as second type of film loaded. One of the joys of MF over 35mm for years was that you could make one photo with B/W, then make one on chrome, and the make one on . . . You get the idea.

One more thing to inspect closely on used MF equipment is the film pressure backing plate (that's inside the film backs in most cameras). The are a spring loaded flat metal plate and/or fingers that should spring smoothly and be very clean. If they are pitted or rusty or the paint/coating is coming off the magazine is shot. The film path and feed pawl/teeth also must be clean, rust free and smooth not pitted etc. These area can cause more problems and will prevent producing good photographs no matter how good your lens and setup. The film has to be flat and oriented correctly.

The Sekonic meter suggested is indeed a nice unit.

If you are going to shoot slides, get a lightbox and a magnifier.

I don't think Medium Format has ever been inexpensive by the way.

Best wishes

[photophorous]

Thank you all for your comments. I guess I'm still not sure what I want. I'm starting to think something like the Pentax 67 (built-in light meter) might better suit my needs for portability (and a cheaper start). I've got some more research to do. I'm even thinking about starting off real cheap with a Yashica TLR or something like that, just to get a taste of MF. Then I can postpone my decision for the more expensive stuff until I've got a little more experience and a better idea of what I want/need.

Any comments on the advantages/disadvantages of the Pentax vs. a Mamiya...or comments about a TLR?

Thanks again. This thread has been very helpful so far.

Paul

[another view]

The built-in light meters are nothing like what you probably have on an auto focus SLR and they're pretty over-rated, IMO. Think of a meter along the lines of the one in something like a Nikon FM or a Canon AE1. A hand-held meter will give you much more accurate results.

Good advice about checking the film pressure plate - btw it's in the film back, not the camera body itself. I also agree that a second back is a good idea, depending on how you shoot. You'll only have 10 shots on a roll of 120 or 20 on 220, but usually you have to buy a back specific to either 120 or 220 (120 will be easier to find). Roll film takes a little longer to load than 35mm, and it's more important to do this in a fairly dark area. Not that you have to do it in a darkroom but you're more likely to have a problem in bright sun with roll film than a cartridge.

Never used a TLR, personally. I thought about getting one a few years ago to get into MF, but ended up with a Bronica SQA for not much more. These cameras are basically a copy of a Hasselblad and are really inexpensive any more.

[Michael Fanelli]

Thank you all for your comments. I guess I'm still not sure what I want. I'm starting to think something like the Pentax 67 (built-in light meter) might better suit my needs for portability (and a cheaper start). I've got some more research to do. I'm even thinking about starting off real cheap with a Yashica TLR or something like that, just to get a taste of MF. Then I can postpone my decision for the more expensive stuff until I've got a little more experience and a better idea of what I want/need.

Any comments on the advantages/disadvantages of the Pentax vs. a Mamiya...or comments about a TLR?

Thanks again. This thread has been very helpful so far.

Paul

Back in the day I used a Pentax 67. Loved it! But I still used a handheld meter, the one in camera just wasn't to my liking. I dumped the TTL finder and went back to the folded WLF. You could try to find a used Pentax analog spotmeter. Big, clunky, but very accurate and worked well. Oh yeah, its relatively cheap!

[PerPlunk]

MF is great. Surely not cheap or easy though. I have a used Mamiya 645 that is a great camera. Weighs about 5lbs, fairly portable, and was cheap (relatively) used. All in all a great camera... Not long ago though I started playing with large format and was hooked. LF lends its self best to a slower paced photography of course though (not for everyone or every type of photography). I would like to argue though the issue of portability. Most 6x7 SLR cameras are big, very big. Far larger and heavier then the 645 and 6x6s. In fact, in most cases, the 6x7 is going to be larger and heavier then a 4x5" LF field camera. My point here is that if you are looking for larger negatives, then you really may want to consider a LF camera. You will have a far larger negative in 4x5", and you can still shoot 6x7cm with the right backs - all with an equal (or lesser) weight and size. Of course, LF isn't cheap either, but with patience, you can find great lenses at great prices, and if you plan on shooting a lot of B&W, then a lot of the very cheap old non-multicoated lenses work perfectly.

If you are interested in LF, then check out this site: http://www.largeformatphotography.info

Also, the 6x7cm format is fairly square, which if you are coming from 35mm, might be somewhat odd. In terms of MF, 6x4.5cm will be the closest to 35mm perspective, and in LF, your best bet is a 5x7".

For light meters, I can not praise the Pentax Digital Spotmeter enough. Of course this is a staple of LF photographers, but for good reason. It's tough, holds its value, and most importantly is super super simple to use. I also have a latest greatest Sekonic that can do everything but play videogames, and it's a great light meter, but for me it's not as intuitive to use as the Pentax (not that the controls are difficult, but I like the analog scale of the pentax as compared to the digital readout on the sekonic - the pentax just relates easier to adjusting the shutter then the sekonic). Of course, the pentax doesn't really at all help with flash photography, so that's when the sekonic really shines.

[photophorous]

I'm still researching this, and I've come up with a few new questions. Portability is a concern. I've read that the Hasselblad 501 is pretty light, comparitively. It's also got the great name on it. The Pentax and Mamiya look like tanks. Does anyone have experience with both Hasselblad and Pentax MF? Can you tell me if there's really a difference in the optics? The Pentax lenses seem to be much cheaper.

Perplunk, Thanks for the info on LF. I'm looking into that too. I'm affraid it might be a little too slow moving for me, but I am considering it. I'd like to have about 10 different cameras...I'm just trying to figure out what order to buy them in.

Thanks everyone!

Paul

[photophorous]

Back in the day I used a Pentax 67. Loved it! But I still used a handheld meter, the one in camera just wasn't to my liking. I dumped the TTL finder and went back to the folded WLF. You could try to find a used Pentax analog spotmeter. Big, clunky, but very accurate and worked well. Oh yeah, its relatively cheap!

Michael, why did you dump the TTL finder for the WLF? Does it crop or something? With this camera, don't you need the prism to take vertical shots? Can you tell me what the difference is between the TTL prism and the Pentaprism? I'm guessing the TTL is metered and the Penta is not?

Thanks!

Paul

[racingpinarello]

Paul,

I own a RZ67II with a prism finder, which does provide a meter. Overall I am very happy with the metering of this camera. If you can find an used RZ67 then go for it. As with any film camera, you should do a test run of slide film and test out the meter, and make compensations for how the meter reads. Some under/over expose based on a grey card.

I still use a light meter, but still trust the meter.

I love my RZ, and since the rush to digital there are a lot of deals out there. On Ebay I was able to find a brand new RZ67II, a prism finder, 110mm lense, two film backs, a power winder, polaroid back, and bellows for $2000.00. It's a lot of money, but if you price out that stuff on KEH.com or BH used department it was a steal.

The following picture was taken in Bodie State Park, with my RZ67II, Scala 100 bw slide film, and metered with the in-camera meter.

Loren

[photophorous]

I'm now leaning more towards the RZ, but I'm still consider LF too. The main thing I don't like about the Pentax is the lack of changable backs.

Do you, or does anyone else, ever use multiple backs for doing zone system photography on roll film? Seems like the only way to really do it, and you'd still have to either compromise a little or have a lot of backs. Is that something worth while, or is it a waste of time in the days of multigrade paper? Please let me know your opinions on this. It's not something I can really experiment with using 35mm.

Loren, thanks for the information. It is helpful to know that the prism meter is at least somewhat useful. I plan to buy a hand held meter eventually, but I'd like to put it off to reduce my initial investment. But, since the prism costs as much as a hand held meter, is it worth it? Is it brighter than the WLF?

Thanks,
Paul

[another view]

WLF's are harder to see through if it's bright outside. You'll also see the image backwards so if you want to move to the left you actually move to the right, etc. You can get used to it - just part of the learning curve. They may also have a non-metered prism which will be easier to use. I'd vote for the handheld meter, but it's a personal choice.

I'm not sure what you mean about multiple backs for using the zone system, but I'm not an AA authority either! I found a second back handy for having another roll ready to go because, as I said it's a little more important to change film rolls in low light than with 35mm cartridges.

[photophorous]

WLF's are harder to see through if it's bright outside. You'll also see the image backwards so if you want to move to the left you actually move to the right, etc. You can get used to it - just part of the learning curve. They may also have a non-metered prism which will be easier to use. I'd vote for the handheld meter, but it's a personal choice.

I'm not sure what you mean about multiple backs for using the zone system, but I'm not an AA authority either! I found a second back handy for having another roll ready to go because, as I said it's a little more important to change film rolls in low light than with 35mm cartridges.

AV, Thanks for your comments. I'm not an AA authority either, because I can't do real zone system with 35mm. I was just thinking, if you had multiple backs, you could develop them differently. AA would expose the film for the shadows and then develop more or less than the normal time to maintain highlight detail for contrasty shots or to add contrast to flat shots. I assume you could plan on underdeveloping one roll/back, and overdevelop another, and just switch them around depending on the subject matter. I was just wondering if others do this with MF, if it's practicle, or useful. I've heard some people say contrast can be controlled just as well with multigrade paper, but I don't know.

Thanks,
Paul

[mdmc]

I'm still researching this, and I've come up with a few new questions. Portability is a concern. I've read that the Hasselblad 501 is pretty light, comparitively. It's also got the great name on it. The Pentax and Mamiya look like tanks. Does anyone have experience with both Hasselblad and Pentax MF? Can you tell me if there's really a difference in the optics? The Pentax lenses seem to be much cheaper.

Perplunk, Thanks for the info on LF. I'm looking into that too. I'm affraid it might be a little too slow moving for me, but I am considering it. I'd like to have about 10 different cameras...I'm just trying to figure out what order to buy them in.

Thanks everyone!

Paul

Pentax optics are excellent. It seems to me that you can get your feet wet in MF with a Pentax 6x7 for less than $600 for a complete kit at Keh, which includes TTL prism and wooden hand grip. If you decide that it's not for you you shuld still be able to get more than half of your money
back in trade or resell. it is a jack of all trades camera.
the first roll of slide film will blow you away.
Mark.

[photophorous]

An update for anyone interested:

After realizing how much money I need to spend on accessories, such as a light meter and a good tripod, I decided to postpone buying a medium format SLR system. Instead, I bought a Yashica-mat 124G on ebay. It's supposed to arrive soon, so my fingers are crossed that it will be in good condition, as was claimed. It was so cheap, I figured it was worth the risk, even if I have to send it off and get it serviced. I was attracted to it's portability, ability to hand hold at slow shutter speeds, and of course it's small price tag.

Thanks to all for the advice. Your opinions have been very helpful. I suspect that sometime over the next year, I will be looking into a MF SLR or a LF system again.

Oh, and I got a scanner (a Canon 8400F), so I'll post some pics as soon as I get the chance.

Thanks,
Paul

[another view]

Cool! Never used one but there are a lot of fans of that camera out there. Good idea to not blow your budget - this will give you a chance to see if MF really is for you, and also to save for that tripod and light meter which will be helpful to whatever camera system you use.

[magoo]

Besides my Rb67 that I use and love I also use a mamiya c33 which is a tlr just like the yashicamat. Great pictures can be taken from the tlrs, but care must be taken. unlike an slr where you can check your depth of field you can't on a tlr because of the separate lenses. Also because the lenses are on separate planes you need to be careful on closer pictures because of parallax. The bonus to using the tlr is that you can keep on eye on the subject while the camera is taking the pictures. This helps in checking to make sure that nobody winks, does bunny ears or gives the camera the finger.

Magoo