D70 = disappointed : (

Hello to all!
I'm a digital SLR newbie who just bought a D70 after saving up for it over the last year : )

The problem is that now that i have bought this camera, Im quite disappointed with the pictures as they appear on the monitor screen. Compared with my Olympus 750 UZ ( a digital point and shoot), the pictures are dull and lifeless. I read on the forums that this camera tends to underexpose so i shoot with +0.3 on...but the pics still dont have the same effect

I tried the direct print setting and that doesnt help. Finally i fiddled around with it on Photoshop 7 and printed it as a 6X8 and at last i got some REALLY good pics...
BUT my problem is this
1. I cant sit around post processing everything...for me its kinda hit or miss..some i just couldnt do much with
2. My pics dont look sharp on the screen even when i turn up the on board sharpness control
3. If i use the PS Unsharp mask filter...it looks very artificial ( i do it twice at 40%), at least on my screen - do u think my screen is the problem? Its a normal 17" Samsung SyncMaster 753s?

So can anyone please help me with the above two Qs, so that even my dad can put this on auto and get better pics than his Casio gives him?

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Originally Posted by The Ever Optimist

BUT my problem is this
1. I cant sit around post processing everything...for me its kinda hit or miss..some i just couldnt do much with
2. My pics dont look sharp on the screen even when i turn up the on board sharpness control
3. If i use the PS Unsharp mask filter...it looks very artificial ( i do it twice at 40%), at least on my screen - do u think my screen is the problem? Its a normal 17" Samsung SyncMaster 753s?

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Images from DSLRs are designed to be post-processed. If you don't have the time, you'll be much happier with a P&S.

Sharpness is left up to the user. Canon also leaves the images soft so you can add the right amount of sharpness. Sharpness can be added but not removed. This is a good thing.

You have to learn how to use the sharpening tools (and everything else in PhotoShop). They are not automatic controls. PS is probably way too complex and advanced for you, its a pro tool. Try something such as Elements to get what you need.

Did you calibrate your monitor? If not, it may not be displaying correctly for photography. Calibrate it and try again.

The D70 in the right hands is an excellent high quality tool. It can be a lousy tool for those who prefer a more automatic approach to photography.

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Originally Posted by Michael Fanelli

Images from DSLRs are designed to be post-processed. If you don't have the time, you'll be much happier with a P&S.

Sharpness is left up to the user. Canon also leaves the images soft so you can add the right amount of sharpness. Sharpness can be added but not removed. This is a good thing.

You have to learn how to use the sharpening tools (and everything else in PhotoShop). They are not automatic controls. PS is probably way too complex and advanced for you, its a pro tool. Try something such as Elements to get what you need.

Did you calibrate your monitor? If not, it may not be displaying correctly for photography. Calibrate it and try again.

The D70 in the right hands is an excellent high quality tool. It can be a lousy tool for those who prefer a more automatic approach to photography.

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As an happy D70 owner, I fully agree with what Michael said. However, I would also add that the D70 (like any other DSLR) have sharpness and color saturation controls. I personally do not use them and prefer to shoot "flat" pictures that I fine tune to my liking in Photoshop but you may try to boost these camera settings to achieve pictures that would possibly need less (or none depending on your tastes/expectations) post processing.

regards

Seb

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Originally Posted by Seb

As an happy D70 owner, I fully agree with what Michael said. However, I would also add that the D70 (like any other DSLR) have sharpness and color saturation controls. I personally do not use them and prefer to shoot "flat" pictures that I fine tune to my liking in Photoshop but you may try to boost these camera settings to achieve pictures that would possibly need less (or none depending on your tastes/expectations) post processing.

regards

Seb

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Yup, that's the way of it. If you want the camera to think for you then you need to go back a few steps. These DSLR's are ultra-sophisticated, and part of that sophistication is leaving certain photographic steps out so that the photog can better finetune them later. That is the reason to have such programs as Photoshop, paintshop pro...ect. I really think you need to rethink your attitude about processing your images. In the end you will be much happier, because you can learn to fix your images far better than any camera could ever do it.

Good luck dude.

With all that has been said - and I agree - there is hope after pressing the shutter button ;)

I for one can't stand working on the computer as "recreation" and photography IS my recreation. I try to get the best image I can when shooting the subject. I follow up by doing very little post processing with PS Elements 2 (I now have Elements 3 to install yet).

When necessary, I usually work with brightness/contrast/sharpen tools. For the most part I'm happy with this. Sometimes I do more for special images that I want to enlargen or frame - or give away - or whatever. I also crop quite a few of the images to get out what I don't want in the image, etc.

If you are not going to do more than 4x6, 5x7 or even some 8x10, you can get away with little post processing - and STILL get a MUCH better image than with a P&S.

Don't give up the ship - try a little post processing and see what you get. If you learn a few steps to improve the image and basically use the same pattern of processing, you will see that once you're used to it - you can spend just a few minutes and get an excellent picture for the most part.

Liz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Ever Optimist

Hello to all!
I'm a digital SLR newbie who just bought a D70 after saving up for it over the last year : )

The problem is that now that i have bought this camera, Im quite disappointed with the pictures as they appear on the monitor screen. Compared with my Olympus 750 UZ ( a digital point and shoot), the pictures are dull and lifeless. I read on the forums that this camera tends to underexpose so i shoot with +0.3 on...but the pics still dont have the same effect

I tried the direct print setting and that doesnt help. Finally i fiddled around with it on Photoshop 7 and printed it as a 6X8 and at last i got some REALLY good pics...
BUT my problem is this
1. I cant sit around post processing everything...for me its kinda hit or miss..some i just couldnt do much with
2. My pics dont look sharp on the screen even when i turn up the on board sharpness control
3. If i use the PS Unsharp mask filter...it looks very artificial ( i do it twice at 40%), at least on my screen - do u think my screen is the problem? Its a normal 17" Samsung SyncMaster 753s?

So can anyone please help me with the above two Qs, so that even my dad can put this on auto and get better pics than his Casio gives him?

---

Most professional/pro-consumer camera require post processing. It may be hit-miss at first, but it does take a little time to get comfortable.

Once you do, the images that you will get from this camera will be extraoridinary. My Canon 1d mark 2 had similar complaints about the sharpness of the images, but once I mastered the unsharp mask for these images, everything was okay.

Color calibration and management is important, and you will need to understand it better. Every hi level camera will have a color shift, or have dull colors after RAW conversion, but the color details are there. With Photoshop you can make color corrections and then apply that correction to all of the images from that same shoot.

I am sure once you get comfortable with that camera you will be very happy.

Loren

As a matter of interest, are you shooting RAW images, or are you just shooting jpg's.

What the others have said is totally true, but you might also have to look at is there a problem with the camera. It is a possibility, not probable, but possible.

finally!

i HATE my d70. i also saved for a year...leaning towards the 20 d but i needed it in a pinch and had to settle for the d70. i absolutely hate it. every time i go into samys to try and learn how to make it better they look shocked when i say i hate it.

the quality is CRAP. it does not handle photoshop well at all. i have shot raw and it seems to be worse than the high level jpegs.

im grasping for any tips that might make the camera better.

i shoot MOSTLY concert photography, and my lense just isnt fast enough. im looking into the 2.8 but thats another 1200....and i wish it was faster.

id always been a pentax girl with film slrs. im not real thrilled with nikon.

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Originally Posted by vivatornado

finally!

i HATE my d70. i also saved for a year...leaning towards the 20 d but i needed it in a pinch and had to settle for the d70. i absolutely hate it. every time i go into samys to try and learn how to make it better they look shocked when i say i hate it.

the quality is CRAP. it does not handle photoshop well at all. i have shot raw and it seems to be worse than the high level jpegs.

im grasping for any tips that might make the camera better.

i shoot MOSTLY concert photography, and my lense just isnt fast enough. im looking into the 2.8 but thats another 1200....and i wish it was faster.

id always been a pentax girl with film slrs. im not real thrilled with nikon.

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ummm....Maybe we're talking about different cameras or something, because my D70 produces wonderful photos...If anything, my lack of skill is the culprit behind any bad pictures. And I can photoshop the crap out of my pictures before they start to look bad, provided they are PROPERLY EXPOSED....If you underexpose, of course your pictures are going to look bad, no matter what camera you use. Even the wizardry of photoshop can't produce miracles.

Here's some shots I took last week @ ISO 1600 w/kit lens. Even though they are slightly underexposed, the noise is not so intrusive as to ruin the shots, even after adjusting contrast and curves in a couple of them. I was actually pretty happy with how they turned out, given the crappy lighting.

If you think that the D70 produces crappy pictures, I'd encourage you to check out some of the member galleries of those who shoot with one.

oh no, i know people can do good things with it and people love the d70...dont get me wrong. but it just doesnt work for me.

there is too much noise for what i use photoshop for. and also for my clients as well. its really disapointing. i was just expecting a lot more from them :/

im ready to go back to film.

Having spent the entire day on PS 7, i must say i'm getting the hang of it : ) Images started looking MUCH better! thanks everyone for the advice!!

Just had a couple of questions

1. Can u record macros with PS? The aim being that i can then do some basic corrections to all the pics automatically
2. Can someone please tell me how much unsharp mask is good ( i want to take a 14X11 print) ? And what do the settings stand for? I sometimes do corrections and it looks ok ... but when i see the same pic on Irfanview, it now looks horribly noisy and distorted... guess im overdoing it...but dont know how to judge that

Thanks a million!
Kunal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Ever Optimist

Having spent the entire day on PS 7, i must say i'm getting the hang of it : ) Images started looking MUCH better! thanks everyone for the advice!!

Just had a couple of questions

1. Can u record macros with PS? The aim being that i can then do some basic corrections to all the pics automatically
2. Can someone please tell me how much unsharp mask is good ( i want to take a 14X11 print) ? And what do the settings stand for? I sometimes do corrections and it looks ok ... but when i see the same pic on Irfanview, it now looks horribly noisy and distorted... guess im overdoing it...but dont know how to judge that

Thanks a million!
Kunal

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Maybe you could show us some of your work :D

As far as USM goes, I find that there isn't one universal setting, it just depends on the photo (and as the old saying goes, ask 3 people for their opinion on it, and you'll get 5 different answers...I usually have mine set at about 0.5 pixel radius, and adjust the percentage to where I think it looks right). Another thing to keep in mind is that photos tend to look much noisier on LCDs than they do on CRTs, so that may be something to think about if you use an LCD...Another thing that will increase noise is trying to lighten underexposed photos, it just doesn't work too well. Sorry that I can't give you a more technical explanation of USM, but I'm sure there are some people around here who can explain it better...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vivatornado

oh no, i know people can do good things with it and people love the d70...dont get me wrong. but it just doesnt work for me.

there is too much noise for what i use photoshop for. and also for my clients as well. its really disapointing. i was just expecting a lot more from them :/

im ready to go back to film.

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You are not going to find a DSLR that can produce the images you want in the conditions you shoot in. Even with a faster lens I doubt you would do a whole lot better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Ever Optimist

1. Can u record macros with PS? The aim being that i can then do some basic corrections to all the pics automatically
2. Can someone please tell me how much unsharp mask is good ( i want to take a 14X11 print) ? And what do the settings stand for? I sometimes do corrections and it looks ok ... but when i see the same pic on Irfanview, it now looks horribly noisy and distorted... guess im overdoing it...but dont know how to judge that

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waah, I wanted to answer this but my internet went down for an hour! :(

Anyway, here's the answer I was working on:

a "macro" in Photoshop is called an "action". Yes, you can record actions and repeat them, you can also batch process a whole folder of images using actions. It would be best to read up on actions in the help materials or in the tutorial, rather than me giving you a too-short explanation here. But basically, if you can do something to one image, you can record it and do it to many. You can also program it to stop and wait for your input, which is good for those little steps of an action that might need individual settings on different pictures. Unsharp masking, for instance. :)

How much unsharp mask is good ... well, that depends on the image. What you generally don't want is to create a "halo" around edges. But some images need more than others. Some images I do the top setting at 25, some at 40, others at 100.

Here's an image to illustrate what the settings are.

The "Amount" is how much sharpening you want done, from 1% to something like 350%. The higher the number, the more haloing you will get along edges.

The "Radius" is how many pixels you want the sharpening to affect. A radius of 2.0 will only affect the two pixels on either side of the edge. If you make this number larger, the sharpening will get "wider". You could almost posterize a picture if this setting is too high.

"Threshold" refers to basically how much contrast there needs to be before the sharpening is applied. The higher the number, the harder it will be to sharpen.

In my example below, I set the Amount to 300, to show you what "oversharpening" looks like. You see very visible haloing, and the noise is accentuated.

Hope this helps.
~k

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vivatornado

i shoot MOSTLY concert photography, and my lense just isnt fast enough. im looking into the 2.8 but thats another 1200....and i wish it was faster.

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f2.8 isn't fast for concert photography. Pick up a 50 f1.4 - that's fast! Not that you'll always shoot wide open but you have the option and AF will work better because it can see better. Depending on your budget, other choices to look at in really fast primes are the 85 f1.4, 85 f1.8, 35 f2, Sigma's 20 and 24 f1.8 and new 30 f1.4. I only have experience with the Nikon 50 & 85 f1.4 - which are among their best - but check for reviews on the others on this site.

I've seen excellent shots from the D70 at ISO1600. I've never used a D70 but I know they have custom curves that can be loaded - this might help you out quite a bit. There's been quite a bit of talk on some other boards about them so you might try Googling "Nikon D70 Curves" and see what you find.

DSLR's in general (as previously said) are designed for some post-processing. Really what they're doing is leaving the options open for you. Ansel Adams didn't straight-print his B&W negatives, and the best digital photographers don't print files right from the camera (not by a long shot). In many cases, it is possible to get the shot very close right in the camera but it will take time getting to know the camera's own settings (color mode, sharpness, etc) and a custom white balance. If you have to shoot a lot for something like an event this can save you a lot of work. But working with one shot to make a large print, the results will be so much better if it starts out a little flat - beause then, like I said, you have your options open for post processing.

Oh, one last thing - monitor calibration systems are worth their weight in gold. I only calibrate the monitor and it's made a huge difference, much more than I thought.

Thanks everyone : ) PFA attached the result of a day of trying PS!
Here is some of my work - all comments are welcome!

Cheers

Kunal
ps: Pic 15 is a close up of a mural...

Hmmm seems like 2 people say they dont like the D70 and everyone is crucifying them. They dont like it. I think thats perfectly alright. Its not for everyone. I sure dont like a lotta things that other people do and I dont think that should bother them. I havent used the D70 before and I sure dont see myself ever owning a dSLR (want to step into MF first and then maybe a back for it when they drop in price a few years down the road).

The light at the end of the tunnel is that its all a learning experience. I stepped into rangefinder photography not knowing if I would like it. Luckily I do enjoy it (a lot brighter viewfinder). Plus everyone thinks I got a old crappy P+S camera (mine was made in 1966, its 40th birthday is coming up) which is my advantage I would say. I know some of you dont like RFs and thats ok by me! I sure aint gonna crucify you. Oh yeah and plus I really do hate it when people ask to view the picture after I take it as with digital cameras. "this one I dont look good. delete it and we will try again." Me: I dont care if you dont think look good because this is how you look!

Ok enough of my rant now (I'm not trying to start a versus thread but I just really do hate those people!)

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Originally Posted by 92135011

Hmmm seems like 2 people say they dont like the D70 and everyone is crucifying them.

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I looked again and see no "crucifixion" at all. What did I miss?

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Originally Posted by The Ever Optimist

1. Can u record macros with PS? The aim being that i can then do some basic corrections to all the pics automatically
Kunal

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PS calls them actions. Take a look in the Help file to see how to create and use them.
Another thing you can do is make your adjustments on adjustment layers (good idea anyway). Then you can drag and drop that layer (grab the layer name in the layers pallette) to another open photo.

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Originally Posted by Michael Fanelli

I looked again and see no "crucifixion" at all. What did I miss?

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I haven't noticed any negative vibe at all. I think we've all been pretty suportive, especially while trying to emphasize the point that it's NOT the camera per se, but how you use it, and how you have to LEARN to use it (and photoshop).

It took me a fairly long time to get comfortable with my Canon 10D, even though it was setup to look and feel very much like the EOS film SLRs I had used for years.

I wasn't quite sure how to expose a digital image or what settings to use, or how to create a workflow to post-process the files. These things take time to learn, and many of my early efforts were disappointing, too...

my apologies if I misinterpreted any part of this thread

For those who don't want to do a bunch of PP with their D70....

The solution is custom curves. Images straight off the D70 are flat. From what I read, this was intentional by Nikon -- their assumption was that users wanted total control over what happens to the image.

But, the D70 is highly customizable allowing one to set many aspects (tone, saturation, sharpening, etc) in camera. The best one IMHO is uploading a custom curve. Check out the following page for greater discussion on this:

http://fotogenetic.dearingfilm.com/c...ne_curves.html

The download section has some great custom curves:

http://fotogenetic.dearingfilm.com/downloads.html

I have the +3EV curve installed, and really like the difference in the images straight off the camera.

So here is the caveat, all the above works just great if:

(A) You shoot JPEG. The curves are automatically applied in camera.

(B) If you shoot RAW (NEF), the curves can only be _automatically_ applied if you use Nikon Capture (NC) as your RAW converter. Other RAW editors allow you to apply curves too BTW.

[Rant On]
FWIW, you must have Nikon Capture to upload the custom curves to your camera. And this, frankly, pisses me off. It means one must spend an extra $100 to fully use their D70.
[Rant Off]

Good luck all,
Tim

Thanks for the link Tim! Made for interesting and logical reading...now im waiting to try it out! : )
I just had one question: Is this Nikon Capture software free? Also, if not, can i use the one which is for the D100 with the D70?

Thanks!
Kunal

Hi Kunal,

You have a 30 day free trial for Nikon Capture when you first install it on your computer (At least in the USA). After that, it's $100... Sigh.... And, I don't think that the D100 software will work on your D70 -- but I don't know.

It really is a nifty thing -- these custom curves. When I discovered this option, my 30 day trail was over. So, I just installed Nikon Capture on my work computer just to download the curve to my camera.

If you go for this, you may try out the Fotogenetic's Point-n-Shoot curve (I think it's derived from his White Wedding curve). I think it's +5 or +7EV with the top attenuated to keep from blowing highlights. They really go a long way to getting snappy pictures right off the camera.

Good luck,
Tim