Film Cameras and Photography Forum

Film Photography Forum Discuss film photography techniques, including darkroom, film types, film cameras, filters, etc. - forum moderator is Xia-Ke.
Read and Write Film Reviews >>
Read and Write 35mm SLR Reviews >>
Read and Write Rangefinder Camera Reviews >>
Read and Write Medium Format Camera Reviews >>
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    After a brief discussion on the topic in another thread, I'm interested on getting more opinions. Personally I use a Kodak Indicator Stop Bath. This is more just because this was the first method I learned about. I know some swear there is no need for it and just use water baths, while I've read of some just using vinegar. I've also read about some films that you should not use a stop bath with such as Efke's R25/R50 films. Just curious what everyone else uses and your thoughts on it's necessity.

    Aaron
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  2. #2
    light wait photophorous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    1,910

    Re: What is the necessity using Stop Baths?

    Thanks for starting a new thread, Aaron.

    I use a stop bath, but it's just water. Here's my understanding of stop baths. Obviously, they are intended to halt the effects of the developer after it is drained from the tank. Chemical stop baths do this immediately by neutralizing the developer. Water stop baths simply dilute and wash off the developer, and so the effects are not as immediate. I suppose the use of a chemical stop bath might be more important with more active developers...when your developing time is short. In practice, I don't know how much difference it makes. I think consistency is the key, because even if a small amount of development takes place after the developer is drained out, that will become part of your process if you do it the same way every time. Hopefully someone else can elaborate on this.

    As far as I know, the only reason not to completely skip the stop bath step, is because your fixer will quickly become contaminated with developer, shortening it's life.

    Paul

  3. #3
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    In a nutshell....

    Stop bath neutralizes the developer and stops the development process.
    And "Indicator Stop Bath, changes colors when it is exhausted.

    This is a better explanation:
    After the prescribed development time, the plate is placed in a dilute solution of a weak acid (usually acetic acid), known as stop bath. Most developers are active only when alkaline, so the stop bath immediately halts the conversion of silver halide to metallic silver grains. It then rinses most of the developer out of the gelatin.

    I found it HERE
    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  4. #4
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Sorry guys, I meant the necessity of a chemical stop bath over just water. I edited the title to clarify that. I know that some form of stop bath is needed though to stop the development process. There are a lot of variations/methods used though and wanted to see what other use in their routines.
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  5. #5
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by photophorous
    As far as I know, the only reason not to completely skip the stop bath step, is because your fixer will quickly become contaminated with developer, shortening it's life.

    Paul
    Which in the long run will cost you more money!
    $$$$$

    Use a stop bath!
    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  6. #6
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    You can use water, only if you have no other choice, but I would proabaly soup it a lot longer in a water "stop bath" than I would a chemical one.
    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  7. #7
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Paul I know you mentioned in the other thread about two 30 second water stop baths. Now do you just let water run through your tank or do you fill with water and agitate for 30 seconds each cycle or...?
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  8. #8
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Read this discussion from photo.net on using water versus a stop bath.
    "Water instead of short stop when developing film"

    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  9. #9
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbrian
    Read this discussion from photo.net on using water versus a stop bath.
    "Water instead of short stop when developing film"

    Brian
    That link isn't working :

    We had a problem processing your entry:

    Couldn't find message 004tHM.. It was probably deleted by the forum maintainer.

    Please back up using your browser, correct it, and resubmit your entry.
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  10. #10
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xia_Ke
    That link isn't working :
    Hmmmmm?
    It worked at first for me, but has been working off an on now.
    Keep trying it too.
    If you are familar with photo.net, look up stop bath there.
    Find it by going through these options, Community > Forums > Large Format > Darkroom:film processing >
    Maybe try this link too. http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004N5n
    Make sense?
    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  11. #11
    Panarus biarmicus Moderator (Sports) SmartWombat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,750

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    I never used a chemical stop bath, just water.
    I just wash/drain several times before fixing.
    PAul

    Scroll down to the Sports Forum and post your sports pictures !

  12. #12
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xia_Ke
    That link isn't working :
    I see you changed your avatar!
    Now we know who we are dealing with!

    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  13. #13
    light wait photophorous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    1,910

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xia_Ke
    Paul I know you mentioned in the other thread about two 30 second water stop baths. Now do you just let water run through your tank or do you fill with water and agitate for 30 seconds each cycle or...?
    Immediately after draining the developer, I fill the tank with water and agitate for 30 seconds, about 1 inversion per second, then drain it. Then I do it again, but I'm not as careful to go for a full 30 seconds the second time.

    Here's my logic (which could very well be wrong): As soon as you pour in the stop water, any developer that is on the outside of the film will be washed off and diluted to a point where it would take hours to actually effect the development. There is still developer that was absorbed into the emulsion, which will not wash off as easily. The time I spend agitating will remove most of it, but after 30 seconds or so, it's pointless, because that tiny amount of developer remaining inside the film emulsion will have exhausted itself by the time I'm through shaking the tank. So, I suspect a small amount of developing continues in the initial 30 second "stop" wash, but as long as I'm consistent with this process, it is factored in. I've never noticed any visible defects on my negatives, and I've never had a problem with premature death of my fixer. I hope there are no problems that I'm just overlooking.

    Paul

  14. #14
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Thanks Brian. That second article is a good read. Still can't get the first link to go through though

    Thanks for chiming in Paul Good to see you over here :thumbsup: Just curious, was there any particular reason you used just water? Was it a preference thing or how your were taught or...?
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  15. #15
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbrian
    I see you changed your avatar!
    Now we know who we are dealing with!

    Brian
    There's a bigger version in my gallery titled "My Ugly Mug" if you need a closer look
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  16. #16
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xia_Ke
    There's a bigger version in my gallery titled "My Ugly Mug" if you need a closer look
    I'll just stay with the avatar view, Thanks!
    You're in good company in that you, like the rest of (especially Paul) belong BEHIND the camera!
    Just kidding Paul!
    :thumbsup:

    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  17. #17
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by photophorous
    Immediately after draining the developer, I fill the tank with water and agitate for 30 seconds, about 1 inversion per second, then drain it. Then I do it again, but I'm not as careful to go for a full 30 seconds the second time.

    Here's my logic (which could very well be wrong): As soon as you pour in the stop water, any developer that is on the outside of the film will be washed off and diluted to a point where it would take hours to actually effect the development. There is still developer that was absorbed into the emulsion, which will not wash off as easily. The time I spend agitating will remove most of it, but after 30 seconds or so, it's pointless, because that tiny amount of developer remaining inside the film emulsion will have exhausted itself by the time I'm through shaking the tank. So, I suspect a small amount of developing continues in the initial 30 second "stop" wash, but as long as I'm consistent with this process, it is factored in. I've never noticed any visible defects on my negatives, and I've never had a problem with premature death of my fixer. I hope there are no problems that I'm just overlooking.

    Paul
    Thanks for the explanation Paul

    I'm curious about something though, are there any effects on final negatives going one way or the other? For example, will using a chemical stop bath give more grain or contrast over a water stop or vice versa?
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  18. #18
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbrian
    I'll just stay with the avatar view, Thanks!
    You're in good company in that you, like the rest of (especially Paul) belong BEHIND the camera!
    Just kidding Paul!
    :thumbsup:

    Brian
    Hey no picking on Paul. A beard like that NEEDS to be photographed
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  19. #19
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xia_Ke
    Hey no picking on Paul. A beard like that NEEDS to be photographed

    DOH! I forgot we had two Pauls in on this thread!
    I meant "photophorous"!
    I don't know the other Paul that well.
    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  20. #20
    Panarus biarmicus Moderator (Sports) SmartWombat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,750

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    I was doing all my own chemistry.
    Made up to formula from the raw chemicals (cheap).
    The Ilford manual didn't mention acid stop bath, and since the fixer I as using was acidic too, I saw no need for extra expense.
    First a fill and immediate drain to wash off developer.
    Then a 30-60 second soak to get some more developer out of the emulsion before moving on to fixing.

    Now 35 years later some of the negatives show signs of incomplete fixing.
    I think I carried on using fixer after it was exhausted, rather than mixing up fresh each time.
    Several films haven't survived well.
    PAul

    Scroll down to the Sports Forum and post your sports pictures !

  21. #21
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xia_Ke
    Thanks for the explanation Paul

    I'm curious about something though, are there any effects on final negatives going one way or the other? For example, will using a chemical stop bath give more grain or contrast over a water stop or vice versa?
    Now you are getting way over my head!
    You might want to ask that on APUG.
    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  22. #22
    light wait photophorous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    1,910

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xia_Ke
    Thanks for the explanation Paul

    I'm curious about something though, are there any effects on final negatives going one way or the other? For example, will using a chemical stop bath give more grain or contrast over a water stop or vice versa?
    I've never used a chemical stop bath, so I can't say for certain. But, I don't think grain and contrast would be affected. I suspect there is no difference at all, but if anything, using a water stop bath might equate to adding a few seconds to your development...which you would probably never notice.

    I'd be interested to hear from someone who has tried it both ways. Seems like most people just go with what they were taught and don't experiment much with stop baths.

    Paul

  23. #23
    Film Forum Moderator Xia_Ke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Mainahh
    Posts
    3,353

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmartWombat
    I was doing all my own chemistry.
    Made up to formula from the raw chemicals (cheap).
    The Ilford manual didn't mention acid stop bath, and since the fixer I as using was acidic too, I saw no need for extra expense.
    First a fill and immediate drain to wash off developer.
    Then a 30-60 second soak to get some more developer out of the emulsion before moving on to fixing.

    Now 35 years later some of the negatives show signs of incomplete fixing.
    I think I carried on using fixer after it was exhausted, rather than mixing up fresh each time.
    Several films haven't survived well.
    Thanks Paul! I've thought a few times about mixing my own stuff. Chemistry was always one of my favorite subjects...LOL

    Your post leads me to another question now What happens to film over time when it hasn't been fixed properly? Does it just fade?
    Aaron Lehoux * flickr
    Please do not edit my photos, thank you.

  24. #24
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    3,972

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xia_Ke
    What happens to film over time when it hasn't been fixed properly? Does it just fade?
    I don't know if fade is the correct term, I think it will show signs of discoloration, assuming it survives being exposed to light that long.
    But you MIGHT, be able to fix and wash it again and it SHOULD be OK.
    It's been a while since I have developed any film so I don't completely remember.
    Brian
    My "Personal" Photography Website...
    高手
    My Moderator Bio Page...
    Nikon Samurai #2 - Emeritus
    See more of my photography here...

    A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in its entirety... - Ansel Adams

    "Photography Is An Act Of Life" - Maine 2006

  25. #25
    light wait photophorous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    1,910

    Re: What is the necessity using Chemical Stop Baths?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbrian
    DOH! I forgot we had two Pauls in on this thread!
    I meant "photophorous"!
    I don't know the other Paul that well.
    Brian
    Ah ha! So you were talking about me. I wasn't sure.

    Yeah, I don't like being in front of the camera...especially when someone else is behind it. But, I did take a couple of mirror shots to finish up that roll of Neopan 400. I might have to participate next time Adina starts up the SP thread.

    Paul
    Last edited by photophorous; 11-07-2007 at 02:34 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •