Developing Color vs B & W

[LuvMyRedHead]

Good Morning All,

Naive question here, beginner still...

What are the differences between developing color and b&w? My assumption is color is more involved? Do any of you do your own color developing? Is a color dark room mroe expensive to put together than a b&w one?

Thanks for the answers...

[Xia_Ke]

Hi LMRH, your assumption is correct. It's a couple of extra steps compared to black and white but, the main difference is that temperature is much more important when it comes to color films. Here is a link to a full breakdown showing the steps for several processes:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...24.14.18&lc=en

If you are just planning to develop film and not make prints, a darkroom is not necessary. All you need is a changing bag and a dark (pitch black) room/closet to load film into your tanks. The rest can be done in bed if you really wanted to. I haven't developed any color film yet. I shoot pretty much only B&W. If you are planning to do color prints, you will need a color head for your enlarger and a drum for developing your prints. Also undeveloped color paper can only be handled in complete darkness unlike B&W paper which can be handled under safelight. Those are some of the basic differences to give you the idea. Do you know if you will be doing color in your class?

Aaron

[LuvMyRedHead]

Aaron, as usual thanks for the info and speedy reply.

No the current class is just B&W. Next semester I hope to take Advanced B&W and the semester after will be Color...so I have a ways to go.

I'm trying to hold off on the digital for as long as possible HA HA HA But if I want to get the associates thru the comm. college then I will have to do all the digital classes as well. Shame that they only off 3 film courses as apposed to 15 digital ones...

So long as I get through this class I will probably put together a darkroom in the basement (we have a perfect unused room) I do plan on making my own prints, in fact my husband is insisting upon it - only wants my work to be displayed..photos and prints!! I'm flattered I guess, but I dont have the skill to back it up yet - so we'll have bare walls for a while :-)

Ilene

[Xia_Ke]

Ilene, one thing to keep in mind as far as your classes go is they are trying to prepare you for a career in photography. Unfortunately, unless you are planning on doing pretty much only fine art photography, than digital is the way to go these days (yes, I said it ...LOL). If you want to get some ideas on how to build your darkroom check out a book called "Build Your Own Darkroom" by Lista Duren & Will McDonald or also "The Darkroom Handbook" by Michael Langford.

Aaron

PS- If you're serious about traditional color photography, check out this guy for some inspiration :thumbsup:

http://www.stephenwillard.com

[LuvMyRedHead]

Yeah I have no interest in photo as a career. Aw but I dont wanna go digital! I mean yes I will get a DSLR and i'll take all the classes. But this is all really just for be to have a serious hobby. I think learning the process of developing and printing my own photos will be an added bonus. I will certianly check out that book and website - thank you for your fine advice!

[LuvMyRedHead]

OMG WOW AMAZING Just visited the website and i'm overly impressed. Those photos are so rich in color and life. I feel a tremenous need to go to Colorado!! HA HA While i'm sure digital could produce the same results - it's hard to beat the satisfaction of developing and printing photographs like that by hand not computer!

[LuvMyRedHead]

Also just checked out your PBase link and am blown away too. I particularly love the Tranquil Morning!!

[Xia_Ke]

Also just checked out your PBase link and am blown away too. I particularly love the Tranquil Morning!!

Thank you :blush2:

Steve Willard does some crazy stuff. Lots of masking work done to his prints and he said he uses kind of a pseudo Zone System for his color prints. He posts in a gallery at another site and gave a bit of a taste as to what goes into his prints but, wouldn't give away the majority of his secrets...LOL

[F-15_Flyer]

I wouldn't reccommend developing your own color film, it's a very dangerous and expensive process. I would suggest just getting it developed at your local lab(pay somebody else) and then you can print yourself.

As far as building the darkroom, you can use a color enlarger to print black and white, but you can't use a black and white enlarger to print color.

Also, you need a very expensive color processor for color prints. The chemicals for black and white are cheaper and you don't need a big expensive machine.

Good luck!

[Xia_Ke]

...it's a very dangerous and expensive process....

I used to think the exact same thing F-15. After chatting with several color photographers a while ago, they showed me it is actually not true. For a price breakdown, a roll of 120 film at the closest lab (not walmart, cvs, etc) is $5.00 a roll. Freestyle Photo has 1 gallon C-41 kit for $67.99. Looking at the data sheet shows a capacity of 32 rolls per kit. That works out to $160.00 at the lab vs. $67.99 doing it at home. As for the chemicals, while you wouldn't want to drink them, they really aren't any worse than a lot of household cleaners. Also, color head enlargers aren't really anymore expensive than regular enlargers on the used market. Getting curious on printing supply prices I looked into those for comparison. Color paper (RA-4 process) is actually considerably less expensive than most B&W papers, even RC. The chemicals for color film and paper are more than B&W though so it actually seems fairly even in the end. It is truly a film photographer's market right now

[drg]

The reason those color enlarger heads are cheap is that no one wants to replace the dichroic elements that have changed color since they were made. You may not even be able to get them.

To get RA-4 to work you need a color analyzer and really close temp control. 1 degree temp variation will change the results and you'll see it.

There's a lot of 'practice' to working in the dark that adds to the cost. And you realize that a Gallon of C-41 doesn't go very far unless you have several rolls of film all set to go ahead of time?

You'll probably want an automated temp setup for your sink just for the film.

Then, what are you going to do with the waste? Shouldn't be dumped down a drain.

And do not get the bleach in an open cut, your mouth, nose or eyes, not good! Wear goggles (even in the dark) and have an eyewash bottle handy just in case. That stuff is a lot nastier than most people would lead you to believe.

Ventilation is important.

If you are masochistic enough to do color at home, (Cibachrome is another story), work with someone else first for a while to get an idea of what's really involved to get a good product. It sounds easy, but I don't like yellow-brown pictures. Easy to cook the film (C-41) or just not have it come out from too low a temp and not enough time. There's also reciprocal failures in that more time doesn't replace warmer temp. These 'quick' labs work by turning up the processing temperature. That machine you see is controlling the whole process and it will still overdo it unless its running perfectly.

E6(slides) are often a better first foray in to color. Still not the nicest chemicals to work with, but when you're done, you can see what you have got.

I know few people who stick with it unless they are a chemist at heart. A good lab is worth their weight in silver halide when it comes to color.

[Xia_Ke]

drg, a few questions for you since I would eventually like to give it a shot...

To get RA-4 to work you need a color analyzer and really close temp control. 1 degree temp variation will change the results and you'll see it.

RA-4 should be a little easier than doing the negatives (C41) though since you can adjust your times based upon temperature with this correct? I mean when you're doing C41 at 100F you have a lot of potential for temp variations where as if you're printing RA4 at room temp, then temp shifts shouldn't be as big of an issue. Am I correct in this thinking?

...a Gallon of C-41 doesn't go very far unless you have several rolls of film all set to go ahead of time?...

Couldn't you just mix up the required amount when needed? I'm not sure what the shelf life of the concentrate is though. Couldn't I mix up say 500ml a shot (enough to do 120 in my tank) and reuse it to do a few rolls that session, then leave the rest of the concentrate for another day?

And do not get the bleach in an open cut, your mouth, nose or eyes, not good! Wear goggles (even in the dark) and have an eyewash bottle handy just in case. That stuff is a lot nastier than most people would lead you to believe.

Ventilation is important.

Just started doing selenium toning and man, that stuff is harsh. The C41/RA4 chemicals any worse?

[drg]

Aaron,

I am not trying to be a stick in the eye when it come to Color C-41 developing, I just want the uninitiated to be realistic as to the results. Compared to B/W it is highly unpredicatable and a lot of people go through a lot of film and supplies before they have any success.

B/W is very forgiving. C-41 isn't!

With controls and good transport, you can print/develop on RA-4 virtually instantly. There's a catch. The image isn't durable. On the other hand if you change the temp/times the response is not always linear depending upon where you are in the range. I've done RA process in a single tray, but it's a fully equipped lab.

What you are most likely to notice is that one or more colors is off or isn't repeatable.

C-41 film has very different spectral curves than the 'real' world. It is compensated for in the calibration and printing process. If your lens is up to spec in terms of all those fun optical characteristics, the film is within expiration, and the film has been carefully handled you probably can decent results after developing a few rolls.

Printing is a second step to get 'right'.

The chemicals. I commented before if you are a chemist at heart, you'll love this stuff. Fumes, viscosity issue, stains, holes in certain materials, and bleach. Yeah, good old fashioned sodium hypochlorite(sp?).

Here's a PDF from KODAK

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/...ls/z131_01.pdf

that has lots of interesting subnotes about handling this stuff. Is it really dangerous? Probably not as dangerous immediately as gasoline, but the concentrates I never liked in the 'field kits'. The kit process is a little different as the bleach and fixer are all in one special formula that I don't think works as well.

Note the mixing difference in the chemical in terms of aeration/oxidation and possibility of particulate precipitation if the chemicals are improperly handled. You probably will never get them satisfactorily remixed if they precipitate. That's what I meant by having several rolls ready to go to make it cost effective.

I said goggles, what I really meant was a face shield like you wear if you are running a lathe, goggles wouldn't hurt. And chemical resistant, not just impact. No more expensive usually, just different.

You mentioned Selenium, I'm less concerned about it in the form that is normally used than Cyanotype. That's cyanide after all. There is by product in the Selenium toners that is highly toxic but it kills you more slowly.

C-41 can give you strange skin conditions after a few years. One hand of mine at times looks like a monster movie with scales. Steroids usually clear it up in week or so . . . That's not all from photo chems, but some other industrial exposures as well. Just a thought.

More later.

[Xia_Ke]

...Here's a PDF from KODAK

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/...ls/z131_01.pdf

Thanks for the link, I will have to give it a good read through :thumbsup:

...More later.

Looking forward to it I'm sure I'll have more questions after reading that PDF.

[LuvMyRedHead]

Alrighty I think the decision has been made, i'll be sticking with the B&W and leave the color to the experts.

[michalopher]

Thanks for the information .

[johnson5]

I want to say you a great Thank You for this Precious Information about Developing Color VS B & W.

[joeblack]

Thank you very much.

[alanbotham88]

Sorry i do not know