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  1. #1
    Fluorite Toothpaste poker's Avatar
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    What's wrong with you Canon???

    I just spoke to a friend of mine who told me he bought a DSLR. Although he has been using a Canon G5 P&S....he decided to go with a Nikon D80 based on reviewes and salesman advice.

    When I think about it....I realize new photogs entering the DSLR world would consider Nikon over Canon based on price point alone. Nikon has the a lot of DSLR bodies with a street price under $1000 while Canon only has the Rebel XTi under $1k. Although the Canon 20D and XT might be found under $1k, you have to find a store that still stocks them and has priced the accordingly. I still see stores pricing the Canon 20D at 30D prices. I feel bad for the uninformed consumer that makes that purchase.

    I hate to say it but if I didn't have all these Canon lenses from my film SLR, I may have been a Nikon shooter....
    Canon 5D MKII & Canon 7D

  2. #2
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    It goes back and forth. Canon was the first manufacturer to sell a digital SLR for under $1000. Nikon has them beat right now with the D40. But I have no doubt that Canon will come back with something for the bargain-hunting amateur. PMA is coming right up. So we probably don't have long to wait.
    Photo-John

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  3. #3
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by manacsa
    Nikon has the a lot of DSLR bodies with a street price under $1000 while Canon only has the Rebel XTi under $1k.
    Nikon has the D50 and D80 (the D40 is only available in a kit). That doesn't seem like a lot more to me.

  4. #4
    Fluorite Toothpaste poker's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Stiegler
    Nikon has the D50 and D80 (the D40 is only available in a kit). That doesn't seem like a lot more to me.
    I just feel has Nikon has a better variety of DSLRs to offer the new DSLR consumer.

    I'm also ticked off that Canon released an 8MP 30D before releasing a 10MP Rebel XTi. A new DSLR consumer would wonder, "why spend more on the 30D when the XTi has more MP." Canon users no what the difference is but a newbie would not.....unless they read everything abou the differences.
    Canon 5D MKII & Canon 7D

  5. #5
    Member gryphonslair99's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by manacsa
    I just feel has Nikon has a better variety of DSLRs to offer the new DSLR consumer.

    I'm also ticked off that Canon released an 8MP 30D before releasing a 10MP Rebel XTi. A new DSLR consumer would wonder, "why spend more on the 30D when the XTi has more MP." Canon users no what the difference is but a newbie would not.....unless they read everything abou the differences.
    The megapixel myth is so strong that people tend to overlook the basic differences. 30D has faster fps for sports shooter. Spot metering, great for those difficult lighting situations. Wider ISO range for those really low light times, faster shutter speeds, and for me a better feel and size.

    3888 x 2592 vs 3504 x 2336 just is not all that much difference and not a reason to give up the above functions.

    I am a 30+ year Nikon shooter. My F2 bodies and my collection of lenses are still my prefered film system. Nikons vast array of low priced DSLR's are to me a hinderence. the D40 seems to be a P&S with interchangeble lenses. the D50 and D80, again entry level bodies, the D400 is their prosumer body and then thier D2 pro body.

    Canon makes an entry level body, xti, a prosumer 30D, and a range of pro bodies for various uses.

    If I bought a D40, quickly out grew it, bought a D50 orD80, and again find I quickly outgrow it, and move to a D400 I would be a little upset. When you outgrow Canon's xti,the natural progression is to either a 30D or a 5D. Cheaper in the long run.

    Buying a DSLR should not be based on body price, but on system needs. If you buy good glass and accessories, be it Canon or Nikon, they can last a lifetime if taken care of. Camera bodies will be replaced over time for newer better bodies. I am still using the same good glasss I bought for my F2's 30 years later because it is still great glass.

  6. #6
    Fluorite Toothpaste poker's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    You are truly making a case from a well informed consumer and long time photographer. I'm just thinking from a business perspective and the fallacy of 'megapixel myth is so strong that people tend to overlook the basic differences.'

    Market share is huge aspect of the Nikon vs. Canon wars. I've been a Canon loyalist since my own baby photos were taken with a Canon FT-QL and I've owned several.

    This new generation of DSLR users will start with Nikon because of the value they are 'perceiving' with Nikon's DLSR price base and model selection.

    I guess I'm bitter that my buddy who had a Canon G5 ended up with a Nikon D80. I thought he would be a Canon loyalist just through appreciation of the G5 alone. Too bad for him....we are planning a few photo projects but he can't share any or my lenses....



    Quote Originally Posted by gryphonslair99
    The megapixel myth is so strong that people tend to overlook the basic differences. 30D has faster fps for sports shooter. Spot metering, great for those difficult lighting situations. Wider ISO range for those really low light times, faster shutter speeds, and for me a better feel and size.

    3888 x 2592 vs 3504 x 2336 just is not all that much difference and not a reason to give up the above functions.

    I am a 30+ year Nikon shooter. My F2 bodies and my collection of lenses are still my prefered film system. Nikons vast array of low priced DSLR's are to me a hinderence. the D40 seems to be a P&S with interchangeble lenses. the D50 and D80, again entry level bodies, the D400 is their prosumer body and then thier D2 pro body.

    Canon makes an entry level body, xti, a prosumer 30D, and a range of pro bodies for various uses.

    If I bought a D40, quickly out grew it, bought a D50 orD80, and again find I quickly outgrow it, and move to a D400 I would be a little upset. When you outgrow Canon's xti,the natural progression is to either a 30D or a 5D. Cheaper in the long run.

    Buying a DSLR should not be based on body price, but on system needs. If you buy good glass and accessories, be it Canon or Nikon, they can last a lifetime if taken care of. Camera bodies will be replaced over time for newer better bodies. I am still using the same good glasss I bought for my F2's 30 years later because it is still great glass.
    Canon 5D MKII & Canon 7D

  7. #7
    Be serious Franglais's Avatar
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    Wait and see

    Quote Originally Posted by manacsa
    I just spoke to a friend of mine who told me he bought a DSLR. Although he has been using a Canon G5 P&S....he decided to go with a Nikon D80 based on reviewes and salesman advice.

    When I think about it....I realize new photogs entering the DSLR world would consider Nikon over Canon based on price point alone. Nikon has the a lot of DSLR bodies with a street price under $1000 while Canon only has the Rebel XTi under $1k. Although the Canon 20D and XT might be found under $1k, you have to find a store that still stocks them and has priced the accordingly. I still see stores pricing the Canon 20D at 30D prices. I feel bad for the uninformed consumer that makes that purchase.

    I hate to say it but if I didn't have all these Canon lenses from my film SLR, I may have been a Nikon shooter....
    My guess - only a guess - is that Canon can't produce a D40 and make a profit. Nikon (and all the other manufacturers) are still using Sony's 6MPix sensor which has been in production for 5 years now, probably sold 2 million units already. Put Nikon's latest image processing chip behind it and it does wonders. Canon make their DSLR sensors in their own CMOS factory. They switched from the 6MPix sensor to 8Mpix and now 10Mpix and they just can't make them as cheaply as Sony.

    Canon could do like everyone else and buy sensors from Sony (that's what happened in point-and-shoots) but they probably don't want to:

    - less volume for their CMOS factory so higher costs for the Rebel and 30D sensor
    - the Sony sensor is a CCD. If they do too good a job they blow the CMOS-is-best myth

    Interesting situation. Let's see what PMA brings.

    Charles

  8. #8
    light wait photophorous's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Very good point about the sensor costs, Charles.

    I'm no expert on marketing, but here's my opinion on beginners shopping for their first DSLR.

    If you can't afford an XTi, then a D40-50 is a nice option. But, if your point and shoot is 6MP or more, which many are, you might think it's silly to buy a DSLR that's no "better." (just referring to popular perception) Then you look at the next level, 10 MP DSLRs, and Canon has the price advantage over Nikon.

    Personally, I'm waiting to upgrade my D70s until the D300 comes out with a 12 MP D2X sensor. With the D80 cutting into D200 sales, that might not be too far away. But, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

    Paul

    PS. Just for the record, I think the whole Canon vs. Nikon debate is silly. Both are great. Each has it's better points.

  9. #9
    Iron Horse
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    uh, actually I think that it's Canon that has the edge right now, even with the fewer # of models. the 10.2mp XTi can be bought for about $650 street price ($645 at beach camera w/ free shipping for silver body), and the 10mp D80 is $950 street price body only. yes, the D80 has a few more features (spot metering, up to 3200 iso, etc), but that's a decent chunk of cash to spend to go from the Canon to the Nikon. Right now there aren't any Nikon's that I was able to consider when purchasing a DSLR, as the D80 was out of my budget, and I wasn't about to drop the cash on a 6mp camera (the difference between 8 and 10 isn't noticeable, but the difference between 6 and 10 is). The D40 is further hamstrung by not having an AF motor in the body, which limits the lens choice. My mother has a film nikon, and I can only suggest that she wait to pick up a digital nikon (she has several lenses) since I can't recommend either the D50/D70s or the D80.

    btw, before purchasing anything from anywhere, check out www.pricegrabber.com for the pricing and www.resellerratings.com for the reviews of the site.



    and yes your friend made the wrong choice.......

  10. #10
    Member gryphonslair99's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by dante
    uh, actually I think that it's Canon that has the edge right now, even with the fewer # of models. the 10.2mp XTi can be bought for about $650 street price ($645 at beach camera w/ free shipping for silver body), and the 10mp D80 is $950 street price body only. yes, the D80 has a few more features (spot metering, up to 3200 iso, etc), but that's a decent chunk of cash to spend to go from the Canon to the Nikon. Right now there aren't any Nikon's that I was able to consider when purchasing a DSLR, as the D80 was out of my budget, and I wasn't about to drop the cash on a 6mp camera (the difference between 8 and 10 isn't noticeable, but the difference between 6 and 10 is). The D40 is further hamstrung by not having an AF motor in the body, which limits the lens choice. My mother has a film nikon, and I can only suggest that she wait to pick up a digital nikon (she has several lenses) since I can't recommend either the D50/D70s or the D80.

    btw, before purchasing anything from anywhere, check out www.pricegrabber.com for the pricing and www.resellerratings.com for the reviews of the site.



    and yes your friend made the wrong choice.......

    Sorry, Canon just lost the edge this last month to Nikon. Nikon had a 42% to 35% sales for the first time. It was speculated that Nikons new varied offereings caused this. It is expected however to change back with the introduction of Canon's new line. Sorry, I don't remember what publicaton I read it in. It was a suprise to me.

  11. #11
    Iron Horse
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    according to Amazon most popular list (digital cameras) in terms of sales:

    Canon XT kit - #12
    Canon XTi kit - #14
    Canon XTi body only - #45
    Canon XT body only - #57
    Canon 5D body only - #58
    Sony Alpha A100 - #60
    Nikon D80 18-135mm kit - #66
    Canon XTi (silver) kit - #84
    Canon 30D body only - #96
    Nikon D40 kit - #100
    Nikon D50 kit - #104
    Nikon D80 body only - #166
    Nikon D50 body only - #303

    granted, this is just the current snapshot of what people are buying, but I *really* doubt that Canon has to reformulate their entire entry-level DLSR strategy due to Nikon. In many respects the D40/50/70s are victims of the megapixel game, with people passing on "only" 6mp in favor of higher 8 and 10mp bodies (guilty as charged...).

  12. #12
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Nikon will not, and cannot compete with Canon in the quality area as long as they are not producing their own sensors, thats one of the areas that Canon has a huge lead over Nikon. Canon designs and makes their own sensors, and has a lot of R&D dollars tied up in that R&D. Every day Canon is learning more about the sensors why Nikon is stuck waiting on someone elses designs and research, and Nikon isn't interested in spending the $$ required to get a full size sensor.
    The above, plus a lack of quality control at Nikon has killed their Pro series camera lines. One Midwest newspaper that has 100 camera bodies is or has dumped all their Nikons for new Canons because of Nikons quality control issues. When they first bought the Nikons 99% died within the first 30 days and took an average of 8 weeks to repair due to a lack of parts. Thats just one large paper, one small paper bought three bodies and had all three die in the first week. That and the above put a hurt on Nikon financially. It won't surprise me to see Nikon drop the Pro gear altogether and just deal with "Joe Consumer" as it is easier to deal with them than a bunch of mad pro's. And the fact that Nikon doesn't want to deal with full size sensors further proves that, as the pros and publishers want t he full size sensor photos. It's also easier for Nikon to ignore Joe Consumers requests for full size sensors and other things the consumer wants. Before long the average cell phone camera will be as good as Nikons consumer line of cameras....10-15 years away, but it's coming.

    JS
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  13. #13
    Member gryphonslair99's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by JSPhoto
    Nikon will not, and cannot compete with Canon in the quality area as long as they are not producing their own sensors, thats one of the areas that Canon has a huge lead over Nikon. Canon designs and makes their own sensors, and has a lot of R&D dollars tied up in that R&D. Every day Canon is learning more about the sensors why Nikon is stuck waiting on someone elses designs and research, and Nikon isn't interested in spending the $$ required to get a full size sensor.
    The above, plus a lack of quality control at Nikon has killed their Pro series camera lines. One Midwest newspaper that has 100 camera bodies is or has dumped all their Nikons for new Canons because of Nikons quality control issues. When they first bought the Nikons 99% died within the first 30 days and took an average of 8 weeks to repair due to a lack of parts. Thats just one large paper, one small paper bought three bodies and had all three die in the first week. That and the above put a hurt on Nikon financially. It won't surprise me to see Nikon drop the Pro gear altogether and just deal with "Joe Consumer" as it is easier to deal with them than a bunch of mad pro's. And the fact that Nikon doesn't want to deal with full size sensors further proves that, as the pros and publishers want t he full size sensor photos. It's also easier for Nikon to ignore Joe Consumers requests for full size sensors and other things the consumer wants. Before long the average cell phone camera will be as good as Nikons consumer line of cameras....10-15 years away, but it's coming.

    JS
    The only sensors that Canon manufactures are their DSLR sensors. The P&S sensors are all Sony. I can't speak of Nikons quality control issues as I am a Canon shooter for Digital. I can tell you from experience that in this area, Nikon is not loosing ground in the Wedding/Portrait/Studio market. I have shot the D2 and found it to be a fantastic camera at low ISO producing quality images. Nikon glass has been a standard for many many years.

    Most of the photojournalist and Newspapers in this area have switched to Canon from Nikon. Most because Canon DSLR's preform better at high ISO, a necessary evil in photojournalism. There are no second chances there.

    To count Nikon out however is wishful thinking. They will be here a long time after some of the other smaller manufactures are gone. Having captured the largest Market share this last quarter will only push Nikon more to try and hold it.

  14. #14
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    I just bought my first DSLR and this is exactly what I saw. The rebel XTi felt "dinky" and offered a less than stellar lens. The Nikon D80 was more in line with the Canon 30D in my opinion than the Rebel and was about the same price. Definitely less than the 30D. Plus the 18-55 isn't shabby. Much better than the canon kit lens.

  15. #15
    Iron Horse
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    ravenmore, where were you seeing them the same price? I was seeing a good $300 difference (got my XTi for $650 and D80s were $950, both body only) anywhere I looked. that price difference really was what sealed the deal for me to go with canon.

    edit - whooops, just saw your other post where you said you got it online on ebay as a demo camera. honestly the XTi stuff on ebay looked like complete rip-offs to me. so in that respect, they are kinda close in price, but if you were looking at purchasing from an actual store (internet or otherwise), there was a BIG difference in price.
    Last edited by dante; 02-02-2007 at 03:20 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by dante
    ravenmore, where were you seeing them the same price? I was seeing a good $300 difference (got my XTi for $650 and D80s were $950, both body only) anywhere I looked. that price difference really was what sealed the deal for me to go with canon.

    edit - whooops, just saw your other post where you said you got it online on ebay as a demo camera. honestly the XTi stuff on ebay looked like complete rip-offs to me. so in that respect, they are kinda close in price, but if you were looking at purchasing from an actual store (internet or otherwise), there was a BIG difference in price.
    It was finding the good deal that sealed it for me. (Cameta Camera rocks, btw. That's who I got it from on Ebay. The camera looks brand new and their customer service was unbelievably good.) I started going away from Canon after I held it side by side with the Nikon. The Nikon just felt like a better camera and it fit my hand better. The Canon was too small. I was looking at the kits too and the Canon kit lens was very unimpressive. The nikon 18-55 is actually pretty good.

  17. #17
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by gryphonslair99
    The megapixel myth is so strong that people tend to overlook the basic differences. 30D has faster fps for sports shooter. Spot metering, great for those difficult lighting situations. Wider ISO range for those really low light times, faster shutter speeds, and for me a better feel and size.

    3888 x 2592 vs 3504 x 2336 just is not all that much difference and not a reason to give up the above functions.

    I am a 30+ year Nikon shooter. My F2 bodies and my collection of lenses are still my prefered film system. Nikons vast array of low priced DSLR's are to me a hinderence. the D40 seems to be a P&S with interchangeble lenses. the D50 and D80, again entry level bodies, the D400 is their prosumer body and then thier D2 pro body.

    Canon makes an entry level body, xti, a prosumer 30D, and a range of pro bodies for various uses.

    If I bought a D40, quickly out grew it, bought a D50 orD80, and again find I quickly outgrow it, and move to a D400 I would be a little upset. When you outgrow Canon's xti,the natural progression is to either a 30D or a 5D. Cheaper in the long run.

    Buying a DSLR should not be based on body price, but on system needs. If you buy good glass and accessories, be it Canon or Nikon, they can last a lifetime if taken care of. Camera bodies will be replaced over time for newer better bodies. I am still using the same good glasss I bought for my F2's 30 years later because it is still great glass.
    which camera is the D400 pal????? we havent ever heard of it?? did nikon exclusively giv it to u???

  18. #18
    Member gryphonslair99's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by myg126
    which camera is the D400 pal????? we havent ever heard of it?? did nikon exclusively giv it to u???
    Nah I used a Sharpie to change the 2 to a 4, thus a D400. Confuses all the othere photographers in the area.

  19. #19
    Member gryphonslair99's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    Quote Originally Posted by myg126
    which camera is the D400 pal????? we havent ever heard of it?? did nikon exclusively giv it to u???
    Nah I used a Sharpie to change the 2 to a 4, thus a D400. Confuses all the othere photographers in the area.


    Ment to be a D200

  20. #20
    Erstwhile Vagabond armed with camera Lionheart's Avatar
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    Re: What's wrong with you Canon???

    well, hard to believe, but...Nikon does make some very good cameras. If I was just starting out like I did 19 years ago, and wasn't committed to any one lens lineup, I honestly could say I would have picked Nikon over Canon. The cameras feel better in my hands, the overall responsiveness of the Nikons I've played with at conventions seem a tad quicker than the Canon lineup. Nineteen years ago, Nikon ruled the market by a landslide (probably 90% or more of the pros were Nikon diehards), but just starting out, I had the luxury of being objective about selecting my system, and the Canon EOS system was light years ahead of anything that was out there, and canon won. Todays market reflects that edge that Canon enjoyed starting years ago, but Nikon has definitely caught up, and folks just starting out are probably finding themselves getting into a Nikon system at least as often as a Canon system. How much of that is purely objective versus subjectivity and salesmanship, I don't know. I do know that Canon no longer has the clear edge in performance in my own opinion based on what I've tried out there. I'm not about to switch because of the large arsenal of Canon lenses I own, but IF I were starting out with nothing, I'd bet I would be one of those new Nikon toting shooters.
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