Nikon D70 auto white-balance question

[OldSchool]

Hi all,

I've read from various sources that the D70 auto white-balance is not very good. So, I've come to accept that if shoot a flash picture with auto white-balance, the result is a very strong blue cast. But I'm thinking.... is it really this bad, or did I get a lemon? I have already sent my camera in to Nikon Service 1 month after purchase.

So for you D70 owners, if you shoot with the flash and auto white-balance... do you get a blue image?

Many thanks in advance,
Tim

[DownByFive]

I've only used AWB once (because I wasn't shooting RAW, and I was switching between flash and no-flash), for an indoor event and I found that it did pretty well, whether I was using the flash or not. Of course, the closer my subject was to the flash, the cooler the image, but not so cool as to look unnaturally blue.

Could you maybe post an example?

[Michael Fanelli]

Hi all,

I've read from various sources that the D70 auto white-balance is not very good. So, I've come to accept that if shoot a flash picture with auto white-balance, the result is a very strong blue cast. But I'm thinking.... is it really this bad, or did I get a lemon? I have already sent my camera in to Nikon Service 1 month after purchase.

So for you D70 owners, if you shoot with the flash and auto white-balance... do you get a blue image?

Many thanks in advance,
Tim

I have yet to see a camera with auto white balance that works right. Shoot in raw and adjust the WB to the proper values.

[Franglais]

Hi all,

I've read from various sources that the D70 auto white-balance is not very good. So, I've come to accept that if shoot a flash picture with auto white-balance, the result is a very strong blue cast. But I'm thinking.... is it really this bad, or did I get a lemon? I have already sent my camera in to Nikon Service 1 month after purchase.

So for you D70 owners, if you shoot with the flash and auto white-balance... do you get a blue image?

Many thanks in advance,
Tim

I just tried doing a picture indoors with my D70 on AWB by tungsten light with my SB800 as bounce fill-in TTL BBL. And yes there is a blue cast. This is normal. You have two different-coloured light sources:

- the D70 reads the ambient light and figures out that it has to give a tungsten light balance (about 3200K)
- the SB800 fires off with its light at about 6000K (ie. much bluer than tungsten light) and the fill-in light is blue

If you want to avoid this effect then you use an orange colour correction filter on your flash to ensure all the light sources have the same colour temperature (there's one included with the SB800).

Charles

[OldSchool]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. Yes I do shoot RAW -- most of the time. I shoot jpegs when am just taking snaps and don't want to PP everything. I'll bring in a sample of what I'm talking about tomorrow.

Hey Charles, thanks for giving it a try. If you get the chance, try it again in a dark room. Also just use the camara's pop-up flash. What's it look like?

Best regards,
Tim

[Franglais]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. Yes I do shoot RAW -- most of the time. I shoot jpegs when am just taking snaps and don't want to PP everything. I'll bring in a sample of what I'm talking about tomorrow.

Hey Charles, thanks for giving it a try. If you get the chance, try it again in a dark room. Also just use the camara's pop-up flash. What's it look like?

Best regards,
Tim

I tried it in various degrees of darkness until finally it was too dark to focus. I tried with the built-in flash. I tried it in JPG and RAW. It still looked blue. Then I switched off the auto light balance and set it to flash light balance and it looked normal.

Thanks for pointing this out. I've never used AWB with flash in the past and I think I shall avoid it in the future.

Charles

[OldSchool]

Thanks for testing that for me Charles. I appreciate it.

I've sent the camera into Nikon service once already. It just produced corrupt images when I used an SB800 in wireless mode. Other things (including WB) were just not working consistently. They replaced the guts and returned the camera (their cost -- still under warrantee).

So, I shoot some snaps with flash up, and I get a blue cast occasionally. Dang! Well I just checked the EXIF tonight, and it turns out I had the WB on tungsten for the blue ones. Yup, that would do it. Thanks for helping me figure this out.

As an aside... those of you who manually set WB, what system do you use. I try and look for something "white" or neutral. I've heard of exposedisk (sp??), and even Pringles lids. I do not have a 17% gray card. But, I'm thinking of getting something. I've seen those three shade gray cards that one can use to calibrate the white, midrange, and black. Care to share what you use?

Also, I'm finally going to get Nikon Capture so that I can do a better job of recovering details from the highlights and shadows. I like using Paintshop Pro for the PP, but it doesn't seem that flexible when converting the NEFs. Do any of you use Capture?

Thanks again all,
Tim

[another view]

Asylum Steve brought up awhile back that 18% grey cards aren't necessarily the same color. They're all 18% reflectance - just that some might be a warmer or cooler grey which wouldn't matter for metering. They aren't (or historically haven't) been made for white balancing although some cameras do use them for that. I'd probably stick with the Kodak but haven't used it.

Honestly, I've used the Pringles lid method and it works pretty well. My Fuji S2 is very good with AWB (nothing's perfect) and that method makes a huge improvement. It will take into account all of the light sources in the room, too. I've tried the Expodisc and it seems to have the same result (although it's about $150 more than a Pringles lid).

Warmcards makes different color cards for white balancing for getting a slightly warmer effect than technically correct. They came out for video people but digital photographers have been using them as well.

[shrapnel]

according to bryan peterson in "Understanding exposure", he says that a grey card is only ever needed once, so to go and by one for $150 (???!!!) certainly seems like a waste of money. His reasonning is this (if i remember rightly): When you have a grey card take it outside on a bright sunny day set your camera aperture to f 8, put your grey card in front of your lens (no need to focus), get your correct exposure and your manual white balance is now set. Now put the palm of your hand (even though it's not 18% reflecting) in front of your lens and you should read a 2/3 to 1 stop overexposure. Remember this. Now go to a well shaded area and go through the whole process again, hopefully, the palm of your hand should read the same overexposure. Done. Now that you have set your white balance, wherever you go, all you need to do is put the palm of your hand in front of your lens, get the reading and set it to -2/3 or -1 for the correct exposure.

I hope i haven't made a mistake here. Anyway hope this helps

chris

[OldSchool]

Hi chris,

That sounds like good advice for checking exposure (unless I miss read something), but my query was more about tints that occur because of improper white-balance (i.e. tungsten -> red tint, shade on snow -> blue tint). I'd use the neutral card to set WB to avoid dealing with these tints in post processing.

What do you do for this when you use your D70?

Tim

[another view]

Chris, setting white balance and setting exposure are two very different things. First off, I have a plastic Calumet grey card and I'll sell it to you for only $125. ;) They're actually pretty inexpensive, and the plastic one won't get damaged. Mine's about 8x10.

If the light doesn't change, you'll be OK setting a white balance when you begin shooting - this would be for studio work, mostly. In most other situations, the light will change often (maybe a little, maybe a lot) so it's best to take a custom white balance for every shot. Obviously that's not practical, and RAW will leave the options open later anyway. But it's best to get it right in-camera as much as possible, this will save you time later.

Even if you're standing outside and don't move, and the sun goes behind a cloud the color temperature will increase several hundred (or more) degrees. If you're shooting inside a building with flash (example: wedding reception, corporate party) the color temperature of the light in the background will change when you move. It's the areas covered by flash that will be most important (the subject). I think the D100 had a WB preset for Speedlight, but not sure about the D70. That's probably the best one to use in a case like this.

[shrapnel]

Hi guys, i have to say, i haven't experimented much with my d70 white balance controls yet, but i have to agree, flash photography hasn't been great yet with it as like you i'm getting reddish tints, and as for the moment i haven't got a good enough PC to handle post processing with nikon capture or photoshop i haven't done much of it to be honest . So setting white balance for flash photography i realise i haven't got a clue.
As for the palm thing, in my mind i understood Peterson as saying that you use your palm as your grey card (once you've calibrated it against a proper grey card) when setting up your white balance (as your palm is always the same color and always has the same reflectance), just remember to factor in an exposure correction when you actually take the shot. (or am i still way off here?). I will be trying a few things this weekend as I'm very intrigued by all this

regards

chris

[another view]

use your palm as your grey card (once you've calibrated it against a proper grey card) when setting up your white balance (as your palm is always the same color and always has the same reflectance)

Chris, I think the palm thing is really only valid for exposure. I've never heard of a WB off a skin tone - it really needs a neutral (white, grey) to figure out what's what. Try it, and I'll bet everything will be very blue (just a guess).

I have heard of that trick with exposure though. It's a good constant because you can easily meter the same thing every time. I know a guy who has a top of the line pro automated camera, and still manually exposes almost all the time. He uses the spot meter, and knows what the shot will look like (shooting slides) by spot metering on the sky and setting that at +1 or a dark area that's the subject at -2/3, for example. That's a different technique but both of them are a good thing to know about because they will improve your consistency. Auto meters inside cameras can easily be fooled in difficult lighting conditions, no matter how good the meter. My feeling is that it's not always necessary or practical to do this, but it's good to know when you need it and how to do it.