looking for a camera suggestion...

[archaic0]

I'm fairly new to photography. I've had a digital point and shoot for a couple years and I've outgrown it now because I want to experiment and just get better at taking pictures. I have a list of features that I need and I'm aiming to spend the money on a Digital SLR so that as I get better I'll grow into my camera.

I've spent some time out there looking for a camera and the Digital Rebel seems to almost fit the bill, but it lacks a couple features that I want. Mainly a black and white mode and sepia mode.

Features I'm looking for:

fully auto mode
fully manual mode (mainly looking for exposure lock and manual focus)
changable lenses (wide angle, zoom, telephoto zoom)
hot foot
remote shutter release (manual OR electronic)
Compact Flash / Microdrive memory
black & white mode
sepia mode

I'm finding that most Digital SLRs have all that except the black & white and sepia modes.

I'm looking to spend $800 to $1500.

Any and all suggestions are welcome.

Thanks in advance.

[Lionheart]

Black and white and sepia tone photos are easily achieved in photoshop or any other photo editing software. Even if my camera came with a black and white mode (my G2 does), I wouldn't use it simply because I have much more control over the end result starting with a color image and having the ability to separate and edit the different color channels and then desaturating and converting to gray scale. My advice is to get the camera that suits your needs best despite the lack of black and white/sepia image capture, and just use photo editing software. Think of the software as your digital darkroom. My recommendation-if you're watching the dollars-get the 10D over the Rebel, it's dropped in price nicely since the 20D was introduced and is more robust and capable than the rebel D. Or you could splurge and get the 20D. Just my two cents. Good luck.

[JeffHall]

Black and white and sepia tone photos are easily achieved in photoshop or any other photo editing software. Even if my camera came with a black and white mode (my G2 does), I wouldn't use it simply because I have much more control over the end result starting with a color image and having the ability to separate and edit the different color channels and then desaturating and converting to gray scale. My advice is to get the camera that suits your needs best despite the lack of black and white/sepia image capture, and just use photo editing software. Think of the software as your digital darkroom. My recommendation-if you're watching the dollars-get the 10D over the Rebel, it's dropped in price nicely since the 20D was introduced and is more robust and capable than the rebel D. Or you could splurge and get the 20D. Just my two cents. Good luck.

This is good advice. The Digital Rebel will probably come with Photoshop Elements 2, great for any B&W conversion and toning you need. Search these forums, Fred Miranda's, or Photo.net's for tips...the channel mixer rules. Think of any color filters you could place over the lens, adjustable at the slide of a mouse. IF you get a 10D--and this indeed is much better than the Rebel for near the same price--make sure you check if the seller is including Elements in the sale or you budget the purchase of that or other good photo editing tools, like Paint Shop Pro. Since you are starting out in the DSLR field and don't have a lot of money, I would not recommend the 20D straight out unless you have more than $1500 to spend... get a used 10D and use the rest on a decent lens and tools. Tamron 28-75 f2.8, Canon 17-40 f4L (okay out of budget), or speciality lens for your interests.

FYI, I have a 20D that HAS the B&W and toning, but I never use it in camera. Photoshop is just that much better.

[archaic0]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm no stranger to Photoshop, I'm a web developer by trade. My thought there is that black and white photography is a lot different then color when trying for a good composition. A picture that may look great in color may not be very impressive when you remove the color. I just would like the ability to preview how the scene in front of me looks without the color.

Maybe it's not as big of a deal as I'm making it out to be... but many times I seem to catch myself liking something in front of me enough to photograph it simply because of the colors.

What I getting out of you guys though, is that it's better to just learn what looks good black and white and fix it after?

[JeffHall]

Yeah, if you want a quick preview of the B&W, then you WOULD have to have it in camera. Or drag a laptop around with you. I was about to reply that Ansel Adams didn't need to know what looked good in composing a shot...but one of the virtues of digital is instant review, so I guess I'll save that snide remark! I still think it would be better to get a cheaper body and better lens, but the 20D has all you want and more...with the kit lens it's $1599. The kit lens is not as good as the ones I previously mentioned, but it's still better than the P&S cameras you're used to...and landscapes you stop down plenty anyway.

[another view]

What I getting out of you guys though, is that it's better to just learn what looks good black and white and fix it after?

Learn to "see" in black and white. It's a lot like learning to see compositionally, what good light looks like, what bad light looks like, etc. Not a bad idea at all to be able to preview at the time of capture what you'll get, but that's only a starting point.

Different filters are used with B&W film for different effects (like really dark skies with clouds that look almost 3D - that's a red filter). You can get some of these effects in Photoshop by using the channel mixer and the results will be much better than shooting greyscale. My digital cameras shoot B&W but I've only used it once or twice to try it out - conversion in Photoshop only takes a minute and the results are so much better.

[Lionheart]

Breezebrowser software allows you view in black and white without any permanent changes to the images. It's one of the viewing options ( along with a another very useful viewing option-seeing the AF points on the image) available on this program. That should get you a quick overview of your images in b&w and help the screening process.
Just a 2 cent suggestion.
Leon

[archaic0]

Breezebrowser software? You said it shows you the AF points on the image too... so is that in camera software...? If so, then what camera?

Thanks so much guys for all your suggestions, I think I'll look at the 20D next and I would use the B&W preview, but then take a color picture and PS it once I get it transfered. The B&W preview will just help me to learn to 'see in black and white' as 'another view' suggested.

Once I get my hands on the camera I choose, then I'll be heading to some classes. I need to make camera lingo my second language so things like: 'stepping down landscapes' make perfect sense to me without having to put too much thought into it.

One last question for B&W shots... is it better to use filters that traditionally would be used in B&W photography while taking a color picture, and then PS the image to B&W for the final result... or just shoot the image color unfiltered and learn to PS it totally. Or maybe some other combination of steps.

I know in time I'll learn MY way to do it, but I just want to know whether it's worth my time to buy seperate filters for color and B&W purposes.

I've gotten a lot from this thread, I'm sure I'll be around as I progress...

[another view]

is it better to use filters that traditionally would be used in B&W photography while taking a color picture, and then PS the image to B&W for the final result... or just shoot the image color unfiltered and learn to PS it totally.

Shoot without filters. This is one advantage of digital (although the B&W as a whole just doesn't look like traditional B&W because there's no grain... hey, I like grain in some cases). You're putting the red filter on (for example) after you already have the shot. You can decide how much you want by moving the sliders around, just keep the three sliders adding up to 100% and you'll be fine. You can even leave red at 100%, move green to 200% and blue to -200% if you want to. But if you shoot with a red filter on, you can't undo it - at least not as well as you might want. You should definately try it with if you're curious about it though, part of photography is learning what works best for you.

You can't do what a polarizer does in photoshop but you can get the effect of most other filters and you're looking at the effect after you have the shot on screen which is great.

BTW, you never have to make permanent changes to image files. I always save the original and work with a copy.

[Lionheart]

Breezebrowser is a RAW format conversion and viewing program (although you can use it as an image viewer for practically all image formats). It's about $30 and you can download it from breezesys.com. If you plan on shooting in RAW format (which practically everyone here does or recommends), then this is a nice inexpensive program (I use it a lot), and the newest version supports pretty much all the RAW formats. Or if you're really serious about RAW conversion, use Phase One's C1 Pro, for about $500 (which we use at the office, but is slow loading, eats resources, and isn't nearly as easy to use as Breezebrowser, but can perform 3 different output conversions from RAW at the same time).