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  1. #1
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    DSLR for action and studio

    Hi everyone- My first post on here.

    I've been researching SLR cameras for years. I never bought one, for various reasons, mainly financial. I looked into them last year after my Sony P&S died, and my wife talked me into getting another P&S just due to the size of it for the things that we will be using it for. She couldn't have been more right, as I use it almost daily with zero setup time while mountain biking and snowboarding. I use these pics for a local website I run, Spudhuckster.com, and it's so convenient to have the P&S camera in my pocket. Most of my pics suck because I don't focus on setup and end up cropping the images (which is why I went with the Sony DSC-P200 at 7.2 megapixels). I would really like to have more professional images this year on the site.

    I founded an upcoming mountain bike clothing company last year (Spectrum Techwear), and am in the process of setting up the business website while critiqueing prototypes. I will need lots of pro-images for the catalog/website, and rather than hire a photographer, I would like to fulfill a lifelong perceived passion for photography. I do realize that it will take years of experience to match what a pro can achieve, but I prefer to be a "jack of all trades" and DIY'er.

    This year I am buying a camera for the business, but will probably will be using it even more for personal use. My friend Amanda takes beautiful pics and spent some time showing me her gear over Christmas (Nikon D100 and D2X). Like I said earlier, I have been researching cameras for a long time and I realize the differences in brands. I have no SLR lenses or gear at all. Starting from scratch, I want a camera that will last for years and can hold up to the abuses of action sports photography. Getting the perfect shot requires getting to the location, which often times is in foul weather and can be a rugged adventure. Amanda is recommending the new D200 of course, which I really like, and would buy immediately if it wasn't so expensive.

    Problem here is the money. Being a first year business, I don't have $5,000 to drop on a camera outfit. I can afford a D200 and probably one good lens one not so good lens. I realize the importance of lenses to match up to your camera's ability. Will it be worthwhile to buy the D200 and a good lens/notso lens/a few accessories (small card because can't afford a big one, but not sure that this matters tremendously as I will be downloading to laptop after each session), or should I go with a Canon 20D on sale for nearly half the price and bump up my lenses and accessories?

    I think both the 20D and D200 will do what I need (both shoot at 5 fps continuous). But my perceived advantages of the D200 are weather-resistance, slightly better image resolution (10.2 vs 8.2 mp's, not sure about actual image quality differences), and it appears to me that there are better glass choices for the Nikon. Amanda says the Canon controls are easier laid out for the user, but the Nikon takes better pictures. Is the 20D going to be extinct in a few years? Will it hold up to the punishment I will probably inflict? Is this realistic or too good to be true - 20d for $799?

    Am I overbuying to start with? Will a Rebel XT due to it's size be a better choice for my backcountry antics? Remember the weather-proofing issue.

    Thanks everyone for taking the time to read my insanely long first post. --Brad

  2. #2
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    Re: DSLR for action and studio

    Watch out for those cheap shots.
    Before you order, call them first if they all come with original accesories such as battery, charger, etc.
    I have noticed that there are some resellers putting really low price on body and saying they are bulk buy. (There is no bulk buy at all.)
    Then they will try to sell you following items such as manual, CD, battery, Charger, etc.

  3. #3
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    Re: DSLR for action and studio

    Oh,, for camera, I would suggest to buy D200 w/ 18-200mm VR lens.
    I have D70 with 18-200mm VR and I'm happy with it's quality. I wish I can buy D200 but I just can't justify the expense right now.

  4. #4
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    Re: DSLR for action and studio

    Hi Bike,

    Welcome to the forum. Before you place an order for anything, go find a local camera shop and handle the cameras you are considering. Ask if they will let you take a few test shots with both cameras. See how they feel in your hands. If its not comfortable, you won't like using the camera later on.

    Nikons and Canons both have their strengths and weaknesses, and you can usually find those by looking at the reviews section of this site. I don't know Nikons very well, so I can't tell you much about them. I'm a Canon guy myself, and I love my 20D. It does very well with Sports Action photos, some of which you can see in the Sports Forum of this message board.

    Since your friend Amanda shoots Nikon, it might be a good idea to give those cameras a closer look. She'll be able to give you pointers on the camera you're working with, and it will be easier for you to get advice on gear to buy. If she has it, you might even be able to try it before you spend your money. Well...maybe.
    Sean Massey
    Massey Photography

    Canon 20D
    Canon Digital Rebel XT (backup)
    Canon 70-200 f/2.8L
    Canon 50mm f/1.4
    Sigma 28-105 f/2.8-4.0
    Epson Stylus Photo R1800 Printer

    Blog:
    IT 4 Photography


  5. #5
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Re: DSLR for action and studio

    Brad-
    First of all - thanks for posting. You got three good replies before I even had a chance. Worth it, huh? And I looked at your site and am reminded that I need to make a visit to your area. Went up to Tamarack to shoot that IMBA "jump jam" a couple of years ago, but didn't get to ride at all. I've been wanting to make a trip to Boise and north, ever since.

    The D200 is looking really good. I wouldn't worry about weather-resistance, though. I'm the naysayer about that. I take all kinds of camera equipment out in all kinds of weather. That includes my EOS 10D and all kinds of point-and-shoot digitals. They can take lots more than people realize. I actually keep looking at the Rebel XT because it's so small and light. It looks like a really sweet riding body. And as far as rising goes, the new Nikkor 18-200mm VR lens, that Nikonpenguin mentioned, looks like one of the best reasons for a an outdoor photographer to go with a Nikon. That lens looks like the ultimate riding lens. Right now I pack either a 28-135mm or a 28-85mm zoom + a 15mm fisheye. That's a lot of stuff to get into a backpack. That one Nikkor covers it all.

    As far as image quality and resolution go - anything you get is going to be fine. I'm behind the curve, with a 1D and a 10D. I rarely get complaints about image quality. If I do, it's because of using high ISO because of tough lighting conditions. And all the new cameras are better than mine at higher ISO. Your big decision is going to be Nikon or Canon, and what lense or lenses to buy. And it's really a pretty personal decision. Right now, the biggest reason to with Canon is the possibility of having a full frame sensor. Nikon has bigger LCDs on most of their digital SLRs and their pro stuff is lighter and feels better than the pro Canons, I think. But I can't see any reason for serious regrets, either way you go.

    Just to throw a wrench into th discussion, I'll bring up Olympus. I like the Olympus E-Series SLRs. They're very small and light and the Four Thirds system has lenses that are about twice as powerful as other manufacturer's equivalents. I've ridden and shot a bunch with the Olympus E-1 and it is way better in my backpack than the Canon system I ride with.

    You should be aware that the annual Photo Marketing Tradeshow - photography's Interbike - is at the end of February. I'm not saying you should wait. The cameras available right now are great. But if you are so inclined, you could wait to see what's announced at that show.
    Photo-John

    Your reviews are the foundation of this site - Write A Review!

  6. #6
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    Re: DSLR for action and studio

    Thanks yall,

    Very good info. I found similar info previously, and am particularly interested in the 350D at this point. I had read in a previous Photo-John post that the 10D may get retired for this body. I don't want to overbuy, as money would be better spent with good lenses.

    I guess at this point the main difference for me is the resolution. If I end up taking really good pics, is the 8 mp Canon going to do well enough to print (maybe even large prints) like the 10 mp Nikon? If so, that leads to another concern, which you guys will be able to answer easily enough- do you usually shoot action shots in continuous mode, and if so, is 3 fps on the 350D fast enough or do I need one of the 5 fps bodies?

    Good reply on lenses as well, as this is the other half of the package. I have read both of your lists of equipment. Which lens get used most during action shooting? It seems like the 70-200 range is most common. However, my friend Amanda says that if I only buy one lens, to buy the 17-55/2.8 (assuming I'm going Nikon). Is the 18-200/3.5 lens fast enough give the image that "pro" look? I am willing to pay for quality, but only if it's necessary to give me the shots I'm looking for.

    ps- drop me a line John if you'd like to go riding sometime. It's a swamp here right now, good for building. In a few months, the secrets are revealed.

  7. #7
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Resolution Not An Issue

    I'm way behind the curve regarding resolution now. I have 6-megapixel and 4-megapixel digital SLRs and I sell images from both. You've probably seen published images from both. More resolution is nice. But knowing how to expose and process your images is more important. And taking interesting pictures is the most important thing. The same thing goes for lenses. Pro lenses are great. But they aren't what make a photo look pro. Again - that has more to do with the content and the photographer's knowledge than the equipment. I have pro lenses but I don't take them on the trail because they're too heavy and too big. I do take them to the races or when I'm not riding. They help. But they don't make photo. Large apertures can help you get the shot in low light and they help you get really shallow depth-of-field. But they don't make good photos in and of themselves.

    I do kinda want to retire the 10D for a 350D. But I would also like a 5D. I might also wait until the price of the 20D comes down more. It's hard for me to justify buying a new camera when the ones I've already paid for are still doing the job. I do like the small size of the 350D but it's missing one key feature that I don't think I could live without - predictive auto focus. I always shoot in manual exposure mode with predictive AF and the 350D only offers AI Servo AF in the sports mode. I don't think I could live with that.

    If you decide to go with the D200, don't be afraid of the 18-200mm VR lens. It may not be an f/2.8 "pro" lens. But it will be relatively easy to carry and ride with and that will mean more photos. More photos is better than perfect photos that don't get taken because you don't want to carry ten pounds of camera equipment
    Photo-John

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  8. #8
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    Re: DSLR for action and studio

    Okay, so I've narrowed it down after holding all my choices.

    D200 is above me for now. It also seems like that with so many upcoming innovations, I will be better off buying a "not-so new" camera, and then upgrading in the future (3-5 years when I am experienced enough to be able to use all the features). I think my money will be better spent on high-quality lenses.

    I have narrowed it down to the Canon 20d or the Nikon D70s.

    It seems to me that the Nikon delivers more vivid images. I have researched many online galleries, and the photo color seems much better with Nikon. Not that the Canon isn't good, I have noted that most pro action sports photogs are using Canon. Maybe it's just what you do with it. I also like Nikon's lens choices better. Not sure why, seems to be more variance with their zooms.

    However, the D70s only offers 3 fps and 6 mp's. Is the 20d's 5 fps and 8.2 mp sensor going to deliver better action shots? I am new to this and do not know.

    Also, what is the best lens choice? I know I want a 2.8 lens, but am unsure whether to choose the wide/med angle zoom (28-70) or the telephoto zoom (70-200). Eventually I will have both, but it will take quite some time to replenish $$$.

    The D70s is nearly half the price as well.

  9. #9
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    D70s Will Be Great

    I think you're making the right choice. Save some money on the body and invest in better lenses. I don't think you'll havae any regrets about the D70s. The truth is, at that level of camera body, technique will make a bigger difference photo quality than the camera. The same actually goes for color. Most pro photos that you see - Nikon or Canon - have been heavily processed after the fact. One big difference between compact digitals and digital SLRs is that there is a lot more in-camera processing with compact cameras. Digital SLRs make the look of the image the responsibility of the photographer. Unless you know the images you're seeing have no processing, it's best to assume that the photographers have done a lot to the images after capture. For a real reference, check the studio tests of the 20D and the D70s in the gallery here. I haven't uploaded the D70s samples yet, but I'll get them up later today so you can compare, if you want.

    As for lenses, I'd buy the shorter zoom first. The 70-200mm f/2.8 zooms are arguably the best zoom lenses available. However - they're not the most practical lenses. If you buy the D70s, I'd recommend the 17-35mm f/2.8 AF-S or the 17-55mm f/2.8 AF-S DX lenses. They would be excellent quality, practical lenses to start with. However, if you' want a great lens to ride with, I still think that 18-200 VR lens looks like the ultimate backpack lens.

    Once you decide on a camera body, you might want to post on the Canon or Nikon forum to get more lens suggestions.
    Photo-John

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  10. #10
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: DSLR for action and studio

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemech23
    Okay, so I've narrowed it down after holding all my choices.

    D200 is above me for now. It also seems like that with so many upcoming innovations, I will be better off buying a "not-so new" camera, and then upgrading in the future (3-5 years when I am experienced enough to be able to use all the features). I think my money will be better spent on high-quality lenses.

    I have narrowed it down to the Canon 20d or the Nikon D70s.

    It seems to me that the Nikon delivers more vivid images. I have researched many online galleries, and the photo color seems much better with Nikon. Not that the Canon isn't good, I have noted that most pro action sports photogs are using Canon. Maybe it's just what you do with it. I also like Nikon's lens choices better. Not sure why, seems to be more variance with their zooms.

    However, the D70s only offers 3 fps and 6 mp's. Is the 20d's 5 fps and 8.2 mp sensor going to deliver better action shots? I am new to this and do not know.

    Also, what is the best lens choice? I know I want a 2.8 lens, but am unsure whether to choose the wide/med angle zoom (28-70) or the telephoto zoom (70-200). Eventually I will have both, but it will take quite some time to replenish $$$.

    The D70s is nearly half the price as well.
    Bike,

    You're looking at dropping quite a bit of money right now. Regardless of whether you go Canon or Nikon, 2.8 lenses are very, very expensive.

    In terms of megapixels, they really don't make a noticeable difference unless you're making very large prints. I've made 11x14 prints with my 20D, and I have heard of photographers make even larger prints with 6 megapixel cameras. If you do need to make enlargements, Photoshop (7? and above) and a software called Genuine Fractals provide methods of enlarging digital images without reducing quality.

    As I said when I posted in this thread last, you can't go wrong with Nikon. You have a friend who shoots with that system, so you'll have someone to turn to for advice or help in addition to being able to try out lenses and other equipment without having to go to a camera store.
    Sean Massey
    Massey Photography

    Canon 20D
    Canon Digital Rebel XT (backup)
    Canon 70-200 f/2.8L
    Canon 50mm f/1.4
    Sigma 28-105 f/2.8-4.0
    Epson Stylus Photo R1800 Printer

    Blog:
    IT 4 Photography


  11. #11
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    what about fps for action?

    Thanks for the thorough replies yall. I did miss out on one big question though:

    Is the 3 fps continuous shooting fast enough for action shots? Thanks, --b

  12. #12
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Frame Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemech23
    Is the 3 fps continuous shooting fast enough for action shots? Thanks, --b
    It depends on what you're shooting and how you're shooting. If you want to shoot real sequences, then 3 FPS doesn't cut it. You need at least 5 FPS. But if you don't plan to shoot sequences, then it doesn't matter. I'm not a big fan of the hold-down-the-shutter-release style of shooting. It can help you catch things sometimes. But it doesn't encourage learning to set up a good shot and learn how to time things. In other words, I think it encourages poor technique. That said, it's still nice to have when someone is crashing or something else you weren't prepared for happens. I have two cameras - one that shoots 8 FPS, and one that shoots 3 FPS. You probably see more photos from me that were taken with the slower camera. I mostly use the faster one for races. And because of the better AF, not the frame rate.

    I also wanted to say one more thing about resolution. I've printed 4 megapixel images 6 feet tall. Image setup is usually more important than the actual camera resolution. You can easily interpolate most digital SLR images up to 20x24 or larger. You are not limited to the camera's native resolution - not at all. Anyone who tells you that you are, doesn't know what they're talking about.

    I've got the D70s studio shots set up. I haven't had a chance to upload them yet. Had to go riding
    Photo-John

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  13. #13
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    I think I got it now

    Thanks John- Clears up alot for me.

    I'm spending far too much time researching this stuff, and missing great photos. The only thing that I'm afraid of is having an obsolete camera in a matter of months.

    Now for lenses, I'll never decide. Better visit the other forum. Thanks everyone. Guess it'll be the D70s for me (saving hundreds is never a bad thing).

  14. #14
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    Oh wait, forgot about BC

    Low light John- British Columbia low light. How's the D70 gonna handle that? I do several trips per year to BC for biking. My point and shoot didn't do too well on the last trip (just too dim in the canopy).

    This is my last major concern, as I've been reading that high ISO leads to grainy pics on the Nikon.

  15. #15
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: I think I got it now

    Bike,

    Researching is good. Its better to take your time to research the products than to just go to the store and purchase something. I made that mistake a few months ago. Instead of just buying a 20D, I bought a Rebel XT. I ended up buying the 20D a few months later because it suited my needs much better. (BTW, PJ, I probably could put it up for sale if you're interested...))

    Don't worry about having an obselete camera. The camera, and the technology behind it, don't make you a better photographer. Its like any tool - it can help you improve your work, but an older camera won't put you at a disadvantage. Nor will it mean you can't produce top-quality images.
    Sean Massey
    Massey Photography

    Canon 20D
    Canon Digital Rebel XT (backup)
    Canon 70-200 f/2.8L
    Canon 50mm f/1.4
    Sigma 28-105 f/2.8-4.0
    Epson Stylus Photo R1800 Printer

    Blog:
    IT 4 Photography


  16. #16
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: Oh wait, forgot about BC

    I've never shot under the BC canopy, but if you're concerned about low-light conditions, it might be a good idea to invest in a flash right away.

    As for noise at high ISO, that happens with all cameras, film or digital. The amount of noise depends on the camera or the film. You would have to ask a Nikon user about the digital noise.
    Sean Massey
    Massey Photography

    Canon 20D
    Canon Digital Rebel XT (backup)
    Canon 70-200 f/2.8L
    Canon 50mm f/1.4
    Sigma 28-105 f/2.8-4.0
    Epson Stylus Photo R1800 Printer

    Blog:
    IT 4 Photography


  17. #17
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    Re: DSLR for action and studio

    Thanks everyone who contributed to this thread. It has resulted in my final decision, which best suits my photographic abilities and budget.

    Nikon D70s
    Nikon 50mm/ 1.8
    Nikon 18-200mm/ 3.5-5.6
    SB-800 flash

    THANKS! --Brad

  18. #18
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    BC Sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemech23
    Low light John- British Columbia low light. How's the D70 gonna handle that?
    The North Shore is really tough for bike photos. No way around it. No camera is going to perform really well in those trees. Most of the photos you see from the Shore in the magazines are shot on fast film. And you can see the grain. We've got the same problem in the redwoods, here. Good technique is key. I was impressed with the ISO 1600 performance of the D702, though. That will help. But I wouldn't go up there without a flash. The Shore also encourages use of really fast, prime lenses. Sterling Lorence has the Canon 200mm f/1.8L and I'm sure he has it to shoot North Vancouver. I'd probably take my 50mm f/1.4. Next time I go I might buy a fast, new, wide angle prime for the trip.

    This photo thing is a bad addiction. It's just as much of a money pit as bikes. Your camera should last you. But there will always be something else that you really, really need

    Here's a link to the D70s studio tests: http://gallery.photographyreview.com...test&x=11&y=12
    Photo-John

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