Digital Cameras Forum

Digital Cameras Forum Discuss compact digital cameras or ask general digital photography questions - what camera to buy, memory cards, digital camera accessories, etc. You may also want to look at the Digital SLR forum, or the Camera Manufacturer forums.
Digital Camera Pro Reviews >>
Read and Write Digital Camera Reviews >>
Digital Camera Buyers Guide >>
Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    Liz
    Liz is offline
    Moderator Emeritus Liz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    5,982

    Question Need Help - choosing P&S for 2nd camera

    Hi Everyone,

    I've asked about a few cameras the past couple of weeks - ones that I'm considering as a 2nd camera to just carry around with me. I had the G3, but sold it to someone who really needed a good deal on a nice camera - and didn't think I really needed one. However, now I miss it.

    Criteria.
    IS - Image Stablization option
    I have a slight camera shake problem. The effects don't show up with better/brighter lenses, and/or IS lenses as it's only slight. The G3 included a 2.0 aperture that didn't show any camera shake effects - due to the bright big aperture.

    I'm a Canon user, but there are some nice P&S cameras that include IS and great lenses (Panasonic - Leica lens & IS).

    Light weight: One reason I want a 2nd camera is because my back has been giving me problems lately, and I'd like something light weight (but not super light). Any P&S - even the heavier ones are 1/2 the weight of my Rebel 300D (without the lens).

    Questions about what I've checked out so far:

    Canon SI IS - would 3mp be enough for me - I'd like more mp if possible, but this is option
    Canon G6 - great camera, but beyond my 2nd camera budget right now.

    Panasonic FZ20 - too much camera? too big zoom?

    Important question:
    I saw a Sony and another Panasonic that included IS, however, they are SO small - and some reviews stated that you really need the IS due to size for a normal person without camera shake. So, it sounds like because of the size of the camera, that the IS probably wouldn't help someone with even slight camera shake. I didn't see any mention of this in any reviews or specs I read.

    Thanks for any input, advice, experience - or whatever.

    Any other suggestions:

    My budget is $500 or less...........thanks a lot.......

    Liz

  2. #2
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Salt Lake City, Utah, United States
    Posts
    15,422

    Panasonic

    Liz-
    Which Sony has image stabilization? Is that one of the brand new ones that was announced at CES? Of the cameras you listed, I'd go with the Panasonic. It is sort of large for a second, point-and-shoot camera. But it, and its predecessor were both on the PCPhotoREVIEW.com top ten list for months. It's a proven design. Panasonic has other cameras with their "MEGA Optical Image Stabilizer" technology. Take a look at the 5 megapixel Lumix DMC-FX7. It's much smaller and may be more in line with what you're looking for.

    You should also look at Konica Minolta cameras. They have their own, "Anti Shake," system. It moves the camera sensor instead of lens elements. Acording to the reviews it works very well. And it's available in smaller cameras as well as their top-of-the-line stuff.
    Photo-John

    Your reviews are the foundation of this site - Write A Review!

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    705

    Re: Need Help - choosing P&S for 2nd camera

    there is an image stabilized 12 x zoom 3 mega pixel FZ3.. also a 4 mega pixel FZ15.. the FZ15 and 5 mega pixel FZ20 are both the same physical size.. the FZ3 is smaller.. the FZ15 and FZ20 are quite light when u pick em up.. in other words they look heavier than they really are.. partly down to having a smallish lithium battery as opposed to four AAs..

    if u think the FZ20 is too much camera the smaller FZ3 should fit the bill.. unless that is too small with not enough pixels and still has too much zoom.. he he he..

    as for camera shake.. its not really about camera size and weight.. if a camera has a nice grippy shape like say the smaller 10 x zoom cameras have things aint too bad.. little oblong things u have to hold with just your finger tips aint very good.. its more about shape and how u hold the camera.. holding the camera at arms length and useing the lcd to compose your image is bad news.. u will get far better results if u hold the camera to your eye in the old fashioned kinda way.. camera shake really should only be a problem in less than perfect light and with plenty of zoom.. the more zoom the more shake will show up.. the same applies to light.. the less light the more shake becomes a problem.. set whatever camera u have in sports mode (faster shutter speeds) and dont use the LCD to compose the image with the camera held out in front of u.. in poor light dont use the long zoom.. image stabilization isnt perfect it just helps..

    the FZ20 is a good camera to hold especially with its hood attached .. grip the lense body/hood with your left hand.. hold the camera grip with your right hand and press the eye piece or top of the camera against your head should give u good results.. dont hold it out in front of u.. he he

    another clever little tip if u still have problems with long zoom shots is to use the cameras 2 second delayed action shutter release if it has one.. this at least take the button pressing movement out of the equation...

    trog100

  4. #4
    Liz
    Liz is offline
    Moderator Emeritus Liz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    5,982

    Talking Thank you!

    Thanks.

    I appreciate all the information here. It is really a great help to me in deciding - I actually had checked out all of these cameras in the reviews here, other reviews, and checked out the specs/features on B&H which are complete and accurate.

    You've made some good points. I know that light is a tremendous help and this is why the G2 and G3 cameras worked so well for me. They are the ONLY P&S cameras that offer the 2.0 aperture vs 2.8 or more the others offer. I never got one picture that evidenced camera shake. I also had the Canon 28-135 IS lens which was excellent and never had evidence of camera shake. Also, the "L" lenses I have for my Rebel 300D are excellent in this regard.

    However, about a year ago I purchased and returned 2 smaller cameras - the Canon A70(forgot which other more expensive one - came well recommended). Most of the images, if not all, showed evidence of camera shake. I believe it was the 2.8 aperture possibly combined with the light weight/smallness of the camera. You might disagree, but I do think the heavier/larger cameras I am able to hold steadier.

    After checking out all the FZ's you mentioned, I started to get overwhelmed - and just couldn't figure out the meaningful differences - that would make me get one over the other. I'm not opposed to the FZ20, but I'll have to go back to see exactly what made me not settle on it. There is one without an optical VF - not sure which camera that was. It just has an extra big LCD - maybe it was the Sony. Too much stuff to think about after a while. I get obsessed!

    Are there any significant differences in the cameras you mention that relate to the criteria above - which you already indicated by your reply that you comprehend! Probably more than I do at this point.

    Again, thanks. You're a great help. ;)

    Have you posted any images from this camera anywhere?

    Liz
    Quote Originally Posted by trog100
    there is an image stabilized 12 x zoom 3 mega pixel FZ3.. also a 4 mega pixel FZ15.. the FZ15 and 5 mega pixel FZ20 are both the same physical size.. the FZ3 is smaller.. the FZ15 and FZ20 are quite light when u pick em up.. in other words they look heavier than they really are.. partly down to having a smallish lithium battery as opposed to four AAs..

    if u think the FZ20 is too much camera the smaller FZ3 should fit the bill.. unless that is too small with not enough pixels and still has too much zoom.. he he he..

    as for camera shake.. its not really about camera size and weight.. if a camera has a nice grippy shape like say the smaller 10 x zoom cameras have things aint too bad.. little oblong things u have to hold with just your finger tips aint very good.. its more about shape and how u hold the camera.. holding the camera at arms length and useing the lcd to compose your image is bad news.. u will get far better results if u hold the camera to your eye in the old fashioned kinda way.. camera shake really should only be a problem in less than perfect light and with plenty of zoom.. the more zoom the more shake will show up.. the same applies to light.. the less light the more shake becomes a problem.. set whatever camera u have in sports mode (faster shutter speeds) and dont use the LCD to compose the image with the camera held out in front of u.. in poor light dont use the long zoom.. image stabilization isnt perfect it just helps..

    the FZ20 is a good camera to hold especially with its hood attached .. grip the lense body/hood with your left hand.. hold the camera grip with your right hand and press the eye piece or top of the camera against your head should give u good results.. dont hold it out in front of u.. he he

    another clever little tip if u still have problems with long zoom shots is to use the cameras 2 second delayed action shutter release if it has one.. this at least take the button pressing movement out of the equation...

    trog100

  5. #5
    Liz
    Liz is offline
    Moderator Emeritus Liz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    5,982

    Red face Re: Whoops!

    Hi John -

    Which Sony has image stabilization?

    You got me I stand corrected.

    It wasn't the Sony - it was the Konica Minolta Z2 that had the IS - the one you said I should look at.

    I've looked at tooooo many cameras at this point. The choice is getting overwhelming, that's why I'm trying to at least narrow it down to about 2.....

    I'll definitely check out the DMC FX7 and the Minolta again - which is where I found the IS before. OK.......then the next question. Which is the better option. The Mega OIS or...the Panasonic.

    I'll be back with more thoughts, decisions or questions.

    Thanks.

    Liz

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo-John
    Liz-
    Which Sony has image stabilization? Is that one of the brand new ones that was announced at CES? Of the cameras you listed, I'd go with the Panasonic. It is sort of large for a second, point-and-shoot camera. But it, and its predecessor were both on the PCPhotoREVIEW.com top ten list for months. It's a proven design. Panasonic has other cameras with their "MEGA Optical Image Stabilizer" technology. Take a look at the 5 megapixel Lumix DMC-FX7. It's much smaller and may be more in line with what you're looking for.

    You should also look at Konica Minolta cameras. They have their own, "Anti Shake," system. It moves the camera sensor instead of lens elements. Acording to the reviews it works very well. And it's available in smaller cameras as well as their top-of-the-line stuff.

  6. #6
    Liz
    Liz is offline
    Moderator Emeritus Liz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    5,982

    Re: question

    John,

    I checked the Panasonic DMC FX7 which I previously looked at, but had 2 issues:

    Issue & BIG question: Small size/camera shake - somewhere I read that due to the very small size of this camera, that IS is needed for normal people with NO camera shake. So, does that mean it wouldn't be as feasible for me to get this one vs the FZ 5-15-20? Probably a dumb question.

    No optical VF - I did use VF on G3 when I had difficulty seeing the LCD in the sun. I don't like the idea of having none available.

    Konica Minolta Z2 - Really nice -I checked it out earlier, but decided to stick with Panasonic for now......gotta love those Leica lenses!

    Liz

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    705

    Re: question

    there is a nice little 3 mega pixel 10 x zoom with a big two and a half inch LCD screen out there with no IS.. it goes under many names.. toshiba.. premier.. rollei.. vivitar.. traveller.. maginox.. jenoptics plus a few others.. he he.. under its toshiba name it says canon on the lense.. under its rollei name it say rollei on the lense.. under all its other guises it has no name on the lense.. u can bet your bottom dollar that they are all identical lenses.. its actually made by premier imaging systems a large Taiwanese OEM manufacturer who make cameras for all sorts of folks.. names mean very little nowadays it seems.. its a nice little camera and can be had very cheaply.. and whatever named version u buy will take the uprated toshiba m700 firmware.. i have a premier version that thinks its a toshiba when it fires up..

    u can spend a lifetime reading reviews and nornally i wouldnt recommend any one camera over another.. but i really do think the FZ20 is out there on its own.. the FZ15 is pretty much the same camera just aimed at a lower price bracket.. the only real difference is four instead of five mega pixels.. the FZ20 also claims a coated lense (for what its worth) which the other two dont have.. they are all rated at 2.8 right thru the zoom range.. all the other super zooms drop off as they go up thru the zoom range..

    u might not need an image stabilized 12 x zoom.. but once u try it.. its hard going back to something like 3 x.. i dont think u will be disappointed if u buy one.. honest.. he he..

    trog100

  8. #8
    Liz
    Liz is offline
    Moderator Emeritus Liz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    5,982

    Re: question

    Thanks......

    I appreciate your input and advice. I'm seriously looking into the Z20 and will check it out this week hopefully at B&H - or at least look at it somewhere to get the feel of it.

    Liz

    Quote Originally Posted by trog100
    there is a nice little 3 mega pixel 10 x zoom with a big two and a half inch LCD screen out there with no IS.. it goes under many names.. toshiba.. premier.. rollei.. vivitar.. traveller.. maginox.. jenoptics plus a few others.. he he.. under its toshiba name it says canon on the lense.. under its rollei name it say rollei on the lense.. under all its other guises it has no name on the lense.. u can bet your bottom dollar that they are all identical lenses.. its actually made by premier imaging systems a large Taiwanese OEM manufacturer who make cameras for all sorts of folks.. names mean very little nowadays it seems.. its a nice little camera and can be had very cheaply.. and whatever named version u buy will take the uprated toshiba m700 firmware.. i have a premier version that thinks its a toshiba when it fires up..

    u can spend a lifetime reading reviews and nornally i wouldnt recommend any one camera over another.. but i really do think the FZ20 is out there on its own.. the FZ15 is pretty much the same camera just aimed at a lower price bracket.. the only real difference is four instead of five mega pixels.. the FZ20 also claims a coated lense (for what its worth) which the other two dont have.. they are all rated at 2.8 right thru the zoom range.. all the other super zooms drop off as they go up thru the zoom range..

    u might not need an image stabilized 12 x zoom.. but once u try it.. its hard going back to something like 3 x.. i dont think u will be disappointed if u buy one.. honest.. he he..

    trog100

  9. #9
    Just a Member Chunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Jefferson, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,351

    Re: question

    Liz, I recently bought the FZ20 and am finding it to be pretty good. I have developed a shake in handheld shots over the past few years and really appreciate the IS. The camera I had before was the Canon S30 and I really hated the shutter lag. The FZ20 is very responsive and shutter lag has not seemed a problem at all - especially when prefocussing. It also has a manual focus ring on the lens that I haven't messed with much yet. One thing that bothers me is the limited ISO range (80-100-200-400) and the noisiness it seems to have in low light conditions. I want to do a little testing in that reguard, but offhand even the 200 iso seems noisy then.
    I'm very happy with it in good light and the camera feels good in my hands. The controls and displays seem very good as well. Battery use is excellent. One thing strange about the camera is that it needs the supplied adapter on the front of the lens for any filters or the supplied lens hood. While I can no longer carry my camera around in my pocket, I think the IS is a good tradeoff for the inconvenience.

  10. #10
    Liz
    Liz is offline
    Moderator Emeritus Liz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    5,982

    Re: question

    One thing strange about the camera is that it needs the supplied adapter on the front of the lens for any filters or the supplied lens hood.

    I was wondering if you are using filters - if this is effecting the low light, etc. situation.

    I did read a review somewhere (I've been all over the place) and the ISO and noise were the only complaint others also expressed. I've only owned the G2 and G3 and noise wasn't bad IMO - tho it was there. I think most P&S have somewhat of a noise problem expecially at higher ISO. I wonder how they compare. How did your S30 do in low light - and noise?

    I really appreciate the information. I'm still thinking about other options. I'd like the G6, but the price is too high right now. It's also big. However, the 2.0 aperature really helped with camera shake. I never noticed it using the G3. I notice it with the little cameras I initially tried out.

    Liz

    Quote Originally Posted by Chunk
    Liz, I recently bought the FZ20 and am finding it to be pretty good. I have developed a shake in handheld shots over the past few years and really appreciate the IS. The camera I had before was the Canon S30 and I really hated the shutter lag. The FZ20 is very responsive and shutter lag has not seemed a problem at all - especially when prefocussing. It also has a manual focus ring on the lens that I haven't messed with much yet. One thing that bothers me is the limited ISO range (80-100-200-400) and the noisiness it seems to have in low light conditions. I want to do a little testing in that reguard, but offhand even the 200 iso seems noisy then.
    I'm very happy with it in good light and the camera feels good in my hands. The controls and displays seem very good as well. Battery use is excellent. One thing strange about the camera is that it needs the supplied adapter on the front of the lens for any filters or the supplied lens hood. While I can no longer carry my camera around in my pocket, I think the IS is a good tradeoff for the inconvenience.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    705

    Re: question

    noise is the one downside to the smaller ccds used in prosumer digitals as opposed to a dslr.. u cannot use high ISO numbers without it creeping in..

    basically if u want to keep the noise to a minimum u use a low ISO setting.. its a trade off tween light and noise.. noise is at excepatble levels in most cameras at ISO 100 or 80.. start to go above that and it creaps in...

    its also not as simple as just looking for noise.. some cameras use an anti-noise factor in the way the image is produced .. again there is a trade off.. the noise is less visible but the image gets blurred...

    kodak for example use an aggressive anti-noise factor.. less visible noise but images that lose their sharpness.. when u compare a kodak image for sharpness with say the FZ20 image they are not on the same planet..

    again noise shows up the most in "low exposure" shots.. those tending towards the under exposed side.. shadows for instance.. in well lit shots it wont show up that badly.. the term "signal to noise" comes to mind like it does with HI-fi..

    its a shame that ccd makers havnt gone for a "less noise approach" as opposed to the "more mega pixel appraoch".. but as long as mega pixels sell cameras noise will continue to be a problem on small ccd cameras..

    mind u grain was a problem with film.. and they solved that by turning a fault/flaw into an artform.. pretty much like happened with limited depth of focus which in truth is a flaw.. with lenses.. the perfect lense would have unlimited depth of focus which was never possible..

    trog100

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Help choosing a digital camera...
    By acme54321 in forum Digital Cameras - General
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-08-2004, 05:51 PM
  2. Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II Digital SLR - Press Release
    By Photo-John in forum Camera News & Rumors
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-21-2004, 11:07 AM
  3. Nikon Coolpix 8400 - Press Release
    By Photo-John in forum Camera News & Rumors
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-16-2004, 04:46 PM
  4. Using slave flash with P&S digital camera ?
    By Michael Baron in forum Digital Cameras - General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-20-2004, 12:13 AM
  5. Press Release: Canon PowerShot S1 IS
    By Photo-John in forum Camera News & Rumors
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-09-2004, 01:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •