Photography. Art or Crap?

Kit, no hard feelings. I am sure that we will be able to build something outstanding and unusual here with our mutual effort.
Irakly

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Originally Posted by shesells

Irakly, I am very much interested in having an Art Forum. Thank you for trying to help get that established. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you and I'm really upset over this whole thing. I never ever get in fights even in real life unless I'm defending the underdog. I guess I saw you as a bully and felt you were insulting good people. I would like to get to know you better and see what others see in you. Thanks for taking the time to answer when I was irate. It all sounds promising and you do seem sincere. I apologise for jumping to conclusions, and no I don't really think you were trying to use anyone. I was wrong.
Kit

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If you're going to start an Art forum and discuss meaning, don't we need to define "art" and "meaning?" Seems to me there are as many definitions of "art" as there are people out there.

Just a jumping-off point
(PJ you were a philo major right? :) )

Rick

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Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

Awesome :D Would you like to step oudside? It is always an immense pleasure for me to read posts where someone speaks for everyone else just to create an illusion of his words having some bearing. Good job, bro. If this thread results in the Art Forum, I wll be extatic, not sorry. I genuinely want to help here, and I will stay to do that. If you have a problem with that, just try some breathing technique, or cold shower and read this thread again before calling it wasted. If it does not help, well... I have heard some people hit their heads against the wall until it helps. I can only hope that you won't need such anradical form of anger management.

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This is in defence of Outdoorman...I'm defending his right to be hurt by your words.


Geez Irakly, can't you give an inch? I have given you the benefit of the doubt, even to the point of apologizing for reading you wrong. Everyone came to your defence and made sure that it was understood what your true meaning was. Everyone but you. Are you a spoiled little brat? The truth is, you were rude in a big way. Can't you be a man and admit it? I know you didn't mean it the way it sounds but you did step on some toes. Please don't abuse someone then cut them down for being upset. Let's all be friends.
Kit

Kit, in that first post I was vervy very careful not to offend anyone personally, and I certainly did not want to. In general, getting offended and strart acting irrational is a much easier tactics than trying to address an issue. I know that negative reinforcement is not a welcome technique in this country school system, but we are not ten-year-olds. Yes, I am a man and no I am not a spoiled brat, honestly. I need some coffee to write something more persuasive, sorry...

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Originally Posted by shesells

This is in defence of Outdoorman...I'm defending his right to be hurt by your words.


Geez Irakly, can't you give an inch? I have given you the benefit of the doubt, even to the point of apologizing for reading you wrong. Everyone came to your defence and made sure that it was understood what your true meaning was. Everyone but you. Are you a spoiled little brat? The truth is, you were rude in a big way. Can't you be a man and admit it? I know you didn't mean it the way it sounds but you did step on some toes. Please don't abuse someone then cut them down for being upset. Let's all be friends.
Kit

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I think this question will be a perfect opening for the Art Forum :) Many people have their opinion on this topic. Some of these opinions are educated, some are intuitive, and for both parties it will be a great educational experience to hear the other side.

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Originally Posted by walterick

If you're going to start an Art forum and discuss meaning, don't we need to define "art" and "meaning?" Seems to me there are as many definitions of "art" as there are people out there.

Just a jumping-off point
(PJ you were a philo major right? :) )

Rick

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Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

Kit, in that first post I was vervy very careful not to offend anyone personally, and I certainly did not want to. In general, getting offended and strart acting irrational is a much easier tactics than trying to address an issue. I know that negative reinforcement is not a welcome technique in this country school system, but we are not ten-year-olds. Yes, I am a man and no I am not a spoiled brat, honestly. I need some coffee to write something more persuasive, sorry...

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Irakly, Irakly,Irakly... Everytime I read another of your responses, I begin to think you will never get it.

Just let me use your answer to Outdoorsman as an example. You begin by using passive aggressive behaviour to leave your opponent bleeding all over the screen.. ie:"It is always an immense pleasure for me to read posts where someone speaks for everyone else just to create an illusion of his words having some bearing".

You then move on to sarcasm to finish him off.. ie "If you have a problem with that, just try some breathing technique, or cold shower and read this thread again before calling it wasted. If it does not help, well... I have heard some people hit their heads against the wall until it helps. I can only hope that you won't need such anradical form of anger management."

What you don't seem able to do is look at the other persons point of view. If quite a few people were offended it should make you think " Hmm, maybe that does sound a bit harsh". Could you possibly work on that? Or, just keep denying that there is any problem and expect everyone to accept you with open arms. In spite it all, I like you. God only knows why, maybe you're a challenge. lol
Kit

...the more excited I am about the idea of having this new forum.

Being immersed in art communities most of my career, it's been my experience that sharing opinions and experiences about the kinds of topics we will most likely talk about will only lead to positive things, and hopefully enlightenment for many of the members here.

I think ignorance is one of the greatest enemies of art and self-expression. People fear (or are at least less tolerant) of ideas and methods they don't understand.

Yes, the art world is full of bs, and the photographic side of it is no exception, but it's only when we are exposed to a great variety of opinions and ideas that we can begin to sift through it all, sort out what we agree with and what we don't, and get a clearer view of the direction we need to go to continue our own individual journeys as artists.

I think this new forum has the potential to benefit a great amount of people and provide a type of inspiration unlike anything else on this site.

I also agree that you are the perfect choice to moderate it!

When do we start??? :cool:

How 'bout tomorrow? :) Today would be good too, but PJ isn't THAT quick :)

When do we start??? :cool:[/QUOTE]

Upon <i>which</i> definition of "Art" will this forum be based?

I have an inkling that unless the term "art" is defined objectively from the point of view of the forum it will be get flooded with pictures of "art" that don't meet your criteria for art. In other words, upon whose criterion do you judge? I think this may lead to a little confusion, anger, and perhaps a little sense of disenchanment? Isn't that what art should <i>not</i> be about?

In other words, how do we tell the man whose art is pictures of his grandaughter eating dinner or the girl whose art is pictures of her paintings that they're not doing "art?" By whose criteria do you discriminate?

By all means, do not take this as an attack, anyone. I am simply trying to get an understanding of what we are going to manifest before we do so.

Thanks for playing,
Rick

I've been trying to remember who it is I talked to about this. I don't suppose it matters, but I wish I could remember. Anyway, I recently told someone that I just cannot view photography as the kind of art I'd want to hang on my walls. I was recently viewing a gallery of amazing photographs taken by true professionals, but among them all there was only ONE that I would want on my wall. Of all the photos I've seen, I don't like them as "art". But the person I was talking to ONLY likes photos as art.

I guess what I'm saying is, if I were to post something I considered "art", it would most likely have some heavy-handed ps work done to it. And probably most people here wouldn't like it for that reason. But I would. So then what?

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Originally Posted by kellybean

I guess what I'm saying is, if I were to post something I considered "art", it would most likely have some heavy-handed ps work done to it. And probably most people here wouldn't like it for that reason. But I would. So then what?

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Not only do I NOT think that is true, but the big question is: why would you care???

I think we'll find that EVERYONE has a slightly different opinion about photographic art, and our members will most likely fall into smaller groups that will prefer a variety of styles and techniques, including heavily treated images.

To be an artist, you should at some point have strong convictions about your work, and that means either not caring what others think, or at least chosing whose opinions you respect and disregarding the others.

Of course the third choice is knowing your sh*t well enough to be able to argue with those that put it down and explain to them that they're wrong.

For me, that's the most fun... :D

Okay, okay...
My initial reaction to the first post here was anger. I do not like being insulted. No one does. And I'm also your typical male-- I would use force to solve a problem and then try talking. When someone crosses me I let them have it full force, right between the eyes, so to speak. I do not care for euphemisms. So my reply was, of course, immature, rash, and unpleasant. And I stand behind everything I said, won't apologize, won't take it back. If I said it then, I meant it, and I still mean it.
Now, I actually did read the whole thread (took a while) and I completely agree that the new forum should be created. I will very much enjoy seeing its inception as well as its evolution over time. There is a more "artsy" side to photograhy that isn't being represented on this site, and the new forum will really help to round out this site's alerady excellent offerings.
The question of photography being art/not being art is not one I will pretend to have an answer to. I would consider it a form of expression, but I can't define it further. I am a humble, undereducated yokel. I have an aesthetic appreciation of the scenes I find myself in, and that's about as much as I can say I know about art. I see things that I like and I try to capture those scenes to bring back and share with others. There are too many people living in front of their monitors or TVs, clicking away on the mouse and jabbing the buttons on a game controller. I use the name Outdoorsman because I feel we need to get off our asses and see the real world out there. There is a time and a place for technology, but all the time isn't it. Take away all your technology, and who are you? I don't feel we should be defined by the stuff we've acquired.
All right, that's enough. The soapbox is officially closed now. Thanks for putting up with my temper, everyone.

Does your "heavy-handed" art make it into the PR Art forum/gallery? Or not? Does it depend on the tastes of the moderator? Or of a group of moderators? If one of the moderators has a bad taste for digital, does it get left out? If you then took that same image to a "digital" art forum does it get celebrated?

I could ask the same question about nudity, industrial photography, photojournalism, or "snapshots"...

<i>How do you know when it's art?</i>

Still waiting for responses...

thanks for playing.

Rick

That's true, Steve. I do have a strong opinion about my style of art.

I definitely don't know my sh*t enough to argue it, but I do know when something moves me.

If a piece makes you feel, it's art. Everything else is decoration. So art can be different to all people because we all have reasons why certain things move us. I think we should all just strive to make things that bring feeling to others. Some peoples photography on this site has moved me, or inspired me to strive for more meaning in my art. When a kid draws a stick figure, to him it's art and who are we to judge. It means different things to different people. I'm sure that anyone that submits a photo piece to the forum will feel that it is art and we should be careful not to step on their feelings. This morning on the Today Show they referred to Bob Ross with his "happy little clouds" as a 'world renown artist'. Enough said.
Art, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Kit

Why do we do anything creative. It is an expression of what we feel, see, touch, smell, etc. It is an expression of self. A way to show something that is within us. Some have 20/20 vision and can bring that through, while others want to express themselves, but never have been taught or shown how to do that properly. IMO I think it would be good to have two versions of critique. Or whatever you want to call it. One for the beginners who need a place to start and the do's and don't of the basics...with direction. Learning how to use a camera and equipment, to achieve the different effects, and their accomplishments. The other for the more serious person who wants to stretch that creativity to take it to a higher more professional level. More the perfectionist view.
Speaking for myself, I really never knew anything about a camera until I started visiting this site, and listening to what everyone was saying. It helped me to understand better what I was doing and looking at. I still shoot crap, but under the right conditions...it looks pretty good. It is intimidating as a beginner to post something for critique and guidance, when you have other posts in there that are way above that level.
To me ART is something created. Whether is be constructed or waiting for the perfect lighting conditions. Who knows....mainly it's in the eyes of the beholder. It will never satisfy everyone at the same time. If it stirs something inside of us or another, then we have achieved something.
Just my two cents.

One week later... still nothing... I wonder if we'll ever get this forum :D

Kelly,

I guess what I was trying to say before is that for this new forum to work, posters (especially those that are not bursting with confidence about their work) are going to have to take risks if they truely want to share their vision.

Folks are bound to disagree about a lot of this, and the criticism will be flying from time to time I'm sure.

That being said, the only assurance I can give you is that some of us will be watching your back, and by that I mean nobody will be made a fool of, and honest attempts at artsitic expression will always be acknowledged as such.

And, in case you didn't already know, much of my art involves heavily treated images, so we'll be represented just fine... ;)

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That being said, the only assurance I can give you is that some of us will be watching your back, and by that I mean nobody will be made a fool of, and honest attempts at artsitic expression will always be acknowledged as such.

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Well said Steve. This is what I believe a lot of the members concerns are. I'll be another of the people making certain nobody will be made to look foolish. In fact, I'm willing to bet you can count on all of the moderators to make sure it doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Elysian

One week later... still nothing... I wonder if we'll ever get this forum :D

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I've got an image just waiting to post there. :)

Lotta response here. I'm not too fond of people calling themselves artists, but all in all Irakly would seem to qualify. Have you looked at his work? Also, I seem to have read some bio stuff from him suggeting that he and his friends suffered some real consequences (i.e., prison) in pursuit of their art while under communist rule. Again, that gives him credibility.

Now that doesn't mean I like it when he says my dog/flower/kid/sunset photo is crap and I would argue that just 'cause his photos have nekked women, it doesn't make them art. But he's never said that - at least I didn't notice. (The truth is, his dog/flower/kid/sunset stuff would be better than mine if he shot that.)

What's wrong with someone who can walk the walk challenging us to raise the bar? (if I mix cliches.)

Not saying that I have any "art", but I'd be thrilled to see other peoples. And I'm very interested in seeing what other people think qualifies as art. And if this new forum would encourage those who are more advanced to post more images, and participate in discussions about them, I think those of us who are not so advanced could really benefit from it, if we choose to.

adina

especially the way he talked to his little clouds (tooo tooo too totootot) :rolleyes: ....just kidding

sort of...I didi like he talked to clouds... :D

I mean art (a.k.a crap) to post for slaughtering --- I mean discussion---so when will we get this new forum up and running...so I can lose what little photographic self esteem I have----I mean so I can learn more about my vision) :D

seriously...I'm ready...on your mark get set....where do we go...? ;)

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

Ha Ha, Trevor, at first I thought you said "emoticons".


http://websmileys.com/sm/crazy/071.gif

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Originally Posted by Trevor Ash

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

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Soon Trevor. John is getting things put together to open up the forum.

Nat. Be ready. :D I believe the forum will in the same section as all of the forums here.

Trevor, I strongly believe that we will have it next Monday.

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Originally Posted by Trevor Ash

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

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I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

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Originally Posted by Janie

I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

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Excellent points, Janie!

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Originally Posted by Janie

I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

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I quoted a photographer/biology professor friend of mine in a recent post: "...everybody's got a camera. Everything out there to be photographed has been photographed. You have to have a unique vision, then develop a technique to express that." I think that sums it up pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

I quoted a photographer/biology professor friend of mine in a recent post: "...everybody's got a camera. Everything out there to be photographed has been photographed. You have to have a unique vision, then develop a technique to express that." I think that sums it up pretty well.

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Sure, but does that make you an artist or just a better photographer?

well, it depends upon how unique your vision is and how well you can communicate it to your audience (or viewdience for that matter)

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Originally Posted by Trevor Ash

Sure, but does that make you an artist or just a better photographer?

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Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

well, it depends upon how unique your vision is and how well you can communicate it to your audience (or viewdience for that matter)

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So, unique vision + efffective communication of vision (via chosen medium/s) = artist?

And something can be defined as being "artwork" if it invokes feeling or emotion upon the audience?

I looked up "art" at webster.com and found the following "ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power". That sounds about right to me. The two keywords to me are "personal" and "unanalyzable". Wouldn't it then mean that attempting to define or label what qualifies as art is just as personal and wholly unanalyzable?

To me, this just makes arguing "what is art?" something not worth arguing since there is bound to be at least one individual that won't think of a candidate being worthy of the title "art". That decision would be that person's truth. To borrow from another phrase..."Art is in the eye of the beholder".

MY HEAD HURTS

Let me apologize for the short responses......I don't want anyone to think I am trolling or have an agenda to push (I assure you, I'm just interested in the topic and the answers people provide)

Trevor,

First of all I understand your last post, and certainly can't say you're wrong. Still, we're trying to hold off on these discussions until the new forum is up and running. Personally, I think we should lock this thread for that very reason.

But I think you're missing a crucial point: that fact that everyone has a different point of view and idea of what art is is the exact reason we SHOULD talk about it, analyze it, discuss it, and yes ever FIGHT about it.

Art is a very personal and passionate thing for some of us, something to be shouted from the rooftops and defended constantly. Even with tolerant and open minded people, the subject is and SHOULD BE argumentative by nature.

Calling something that is such a large part of our beings and something that we have such strong opinions on "unanalyzable" and therefore not open for constant discussion would to me make little or no sense.

BTW, the big question is NOT "what is art?" We already know the answer to that...

Rather, the new forum will want to know things like "what inspires you to create and why?", "whose work inspires you and why?", "what types of work move you when you view them and why?" and MANY, MANY similar questions and topics.

We don't want to explore the dictionary's definition of art, but rather from the much more complex point of view of the human experience...

Well, for reasons I've already explained, I'm going to leave it at this for now. See you in the new forum! :cool:

Steve, I disagree with you that this discussion must be put on hold until the new forum. If I have a thought and must wait to post it, it may just disappear. Just as the perfect moment can disappear, just as art of any kind never exists unless acted upon. Thoughts are perishable, and there's no reason to have to wait for the "proper forum" to discuss them.

This thread can be moved to that forum when it opens, and might be a good idea to lead people interested in this subject to that forum. Until then, we should still have an outlet for our thoughts.

Sounds good to me Steve. Hopefully this post can be moved but if not I'll look forward to seeing some of you in the new forum.....I'll reserve future comments till then :)

I just can't stay out of this :)

Steve, out of respect for you I'll make this brief:

I disagree wholeheartedly with your statement:
"Even with tolerant and open minded people, the subject is and SHOULD BE argumentative by nature."

I disagree because to me, art is <i>silencing</i> not argumentative. Like beauty, when you <i>truly, deeply</i> behold something beautiful, you are moved to stillness. I think art is the same way.

There, I'm done :D

Rick

Rick, knowing what a clever guy you are, I'm sure this was your intention (to test me perhaps?), but your statement simply REINFORCES what I said to Trevor.

Obviousy, we're not talking about the experience itself, but the TOPIC of art, and you've not only expressed your feelings about the subject, but by disagreeing with me, you've shown you are willing to argue the point... :)

Also, your opinion, as valid as it is, is only one of MANY. And it is these various opinions that make up the aurgumentative aspect of art that I refer to...

Art is meant to elicit the entire spectrum of human emotions from us, the profound silence you mention being just one of them. In your case, the discussion could well be WHY you react to art this way? But it's a discussion nonetheless...

Powerful art can make people laugh, cry, feel happy, feel sad, feel peaceful, feel angry, feel elated, feel depressed, feel enlightened, or feel confused. And so on and so on...

Each person's individual response to art, when either creating it or viewing it, is a personal thing. That means whatever way we act and react is valid...

The question is: do we want to talk about it?

Obviously we do, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion and there would be no need for a new forum... ;)

-Steve

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Originally Posted by walterick

I just can't stay out of this :)

Steve, out of respect for you I'll make this brief:

I disagree wholeheartedly with your statement:
"Even with tolerant and open minded people, the subject is and SHOULD BE argumentative by nature."

I disagree because to me, art is <i>silencing</i> not argumentative. Like beauty, when you <i>truly, deeply</i> behold something beautiful, you are moved to stillness. I think art is the same way.

There, I'm done :D

Rick

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Boy do I love this. Civilized, yet passionate debate on an issue, not blatant attacks and character assassination. (Hope I spelled that right). Now if our two political parties (three) would just do that in the media.

MJS