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  1. #26
    Hardcore...Nikon Speed's Avatar
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    The Real Irony Of This....

    Is that while first Kodak discontinued making film camera's for the American market, and now Nikon is severly cutting back on it's film camera production, digital is still having problems. OK, let me clarify that - digital has one major problem that I see: archiving.

    A couple of months ago I read Bob Krist lamenting that he wanted archival systems that were, ARCHIVAL.
    .
    His main lament was that he was repeatedly being let down by his archives. CD's don't hold enough data, DVD's are too slow, and he'd had two hard drives fry on him. He stated that he had an easier time producing photo's he made 30 years ago, then the ones he made three months ago.

    Yes, there are RAID systems (very expensive) and there are now hard drives that are split to make backup data. I've been watching them, and while the prices are coming down, they're still a hefty chunk of change.

    I lost my hard drive this past fall. I lost hundreds of digital photo's. Fortunately, I didn't lose all of them, since I had put some of them on another computer. I've since made CD's of those.

    Then today, I see this article: http://msn.pcworld.com/news/article/...0.asp?GT1=7645
    The gist of the article is that the CD's you bought at Wal Mart are only going to last 2 - 5 years! So much for being archival.

    Part of the reason I've put off going digital is worries about losing photo's. Computers are now being made to address this (split hard drives), but the one's I've seen that look worthwhile run about $1200. Let's see, $1700 for a D200, $129 each for a couple of 1 gig CF cards, $325 for a digital compatible flash, then $1200 for a computer. So, anyone got $3500 they can spot me to get into digital? :-O

    Yes, I'm playing devils advocate. I know the savings in developing will pay for the camera and related gear. But between the up front costs, and worries about the longevity of my photo's, I'm not in a big rush to jump headfirst into digital, despite Kodak and Nikon jumping on the digital bandwagon.

    Besides, someone's got to keep Velvia alive! Right Rick?

    :-D
    Last edited by Speed; 01-12-2006 at 03:04 PM.
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  2. #27
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: The Real Irony Of This....

    That's right! I'll go digital when I have no choice left. But till then,

    THERE IS NO DIGITAL EQUIVALENT OF VELVIA.
    Walter Rick Long
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  3. #28
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon discontinues most film cameras...

    The good news for film users is, within the last 5 years or so most photo labs have upgraded their printing machines to very costly, digital print-and-scan units (such as the Fuji Frontier) that there is no need to replace for years to come. Therefore, photo labs will be able to do digital files and film for years to come, without changing their infrastructure at all.

    Good news for the Velvia Bandit!

    I agree Mas, Velvia, Tmax and Portra are still high volume sellers. Names like Agfa may disappear off the shelf though.
    Walter Rick Long
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  4. #29
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon discontinues most film cameras...

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    The good news for film users is, within the last 5 years or so most photo labs have upgraded their printing machines to very costly, digital print-and-scan units (such as the Fuji Frontier) that there is no need to replace for years to come. Therefore, photo labs will be able to do digital files and film for years to come, without changing their infrastructure at all.

    Good news for the Velvia Bandit!

    I agree Mas, Velvia, Tmax and Portra are still high volume sellers. Names like Agfa may disappear off the shelf though.
    They'll be able to print film, but will they be able to develop it? As 35mm starts to disappear, all the 1 hour photo places that are in every drug store and high-volume department store will start to disappear as well. The printing infrastructure will remain, no doubt, because many people find it easier to pay 29 cents per print rather than do it themselves.
    Sean Massey
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  5. #30
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Re: Don't Worry

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    Where's my support group?
    Right here, brother.

    Do you want to borrow my hanky? A good cry will do you good. There there now. Let it out. That's good. Let the Velvia go. It's time has come.
    Photo-John

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  6. #31
    light wait photophorous's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon discontinues most film cameras...

    This makes me wonder about paper and chemicals. I do my own B&W developing and printing.

    I've been thinking that digital would soon replace 35mm, but it would take much longer to replace MF or LF...if it ever does. But, MF and LF still need the same paper and chemicals. I doubt they'll stop making the paper and chemicals anytime soon, but... Is that stuff going to get so expensive that only the pros can afford it, with out 35mm users buying it too? Lower volumes = higher costs. That's what I'm worried about.

    Paul

  7. #32
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon discontinues most film cameras...

    The 1-hour photo places will start closing up, that's for sure.

    But the pro places that already have the equipment to develop film will hang on to that equipment. I use pro shops exclusively now for my devlopment and printing. And now that I have a scanner that will scan film, I usually use their development servies exclusively. However, for a good quality print I still take in the neg or slide and let them do it.
    Walter Rick Long
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  8. #33
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Don't Worry

    No! Won't let go! I won't I won't I won't!
    Walter Rick Long
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  9. #34
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
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    Talking You know Rick...

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    No! Won't let go! I won't I won't I won't!
    I knew I have always liked you, but you and I are very like minded!
    Which is a good thing!
    Film Is IT!!
    Be it in my Nikon or my Holgas!
    I don't plan on giving up film any time toon!
    FILM RULES and Digital.... Well is just digital!
    ;)
    Brian
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  10. #35
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: The Real Irony Of This....

    Speed,

    You make a good point about digital, and that is archiving the images. Right now, there is no quick and easy archival method, nor is there a perfect one. If you want a portable solution that you can easily carry around or lock in a fireproof box, DVD and magnetic tape are probably the best options. Yes, they're slow, but they also have the highest data capacity and DVDs have come down considerably in price.

    Short of buying your own server, there are a few options you can do for non-removable storage. Well, you can build your own server using older hardware. Pentium IIs work great for that. Just throw in a bunch of IDE hard drives, set up a software RAID 1, and leave it in the corner. Unless you have a multiple catastrophic drive failure, you'll always be able to recover your files, even if you lose a drive. There are also some networked options that are basically self-contained RAID 5 arrays.

    As digital photography advances, archival technology will advance with it until there is an effective and affordable storage technology.
    Sean Massey
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  11. #36
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Pro Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by masdog
    They'll be able to print film, but will they be able to develop it?
    A friend who works at a custom lab told me that in the past few months their E6 (slide film) processing volume has started to go up again.
    Photo-John

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  12. #37
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
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    Re: Pro Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo-John
    A friend who works at a custom lab told me that in the past few months their E6 (slide film) processing volume has started to go up again.
    The lab I use, no longer does custom color prints or Ilafchrome prints.
    But they still process C-41 and E-6...
    Brian
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  13. #38
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Pro Labs

    As smaller labs begin to shut down, E6 and C41 clients will get shuffled into the remaining labs who do that work, increasing their work volume and hopefully giving them economic incentive to keep those services available...

    ... at least until digital Velvia comes out ;)
    Walter Rick Long
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  14. #39
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: You know Rick...

    Hey guys like you and me and Speedo are a dying breed! We film dinosaurs need to stick together!

    Now where's my group hug...
    Walter Rick Long
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  15. #40
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: Pro Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    ... at least until digital Velvia comes out
    I think that is already here. FredMiranda.com has a Photoshop plug-in that replicates the effects of Velvia. I don't know how it works, though.
    Sean Massey
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  16. #41
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Velvia Action

    Quote Originally Posted by masdog
    I think that is already here. FredMiranda.com has a Photoshop plug-in that replicates the effects of Velvia. I don't know how it works, though.
    The Fred Miranda Velvia action is excellent. I have a friend who uses it and it's beautiful. Truth is, you can pretty much replicate any film look you want with digital. The thing is - you have to do it. The biggest selling point for film is you can buy the look you want. With digital, the photographer is responsible for the look of the image.
    Photo-John

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  17. #42
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Velvia Action

    Let's just assume for a minute that I'm a po' boy who can't afford the $500 Photoshop software but gets along pretty well with his Photoshop Elements 2.0. Can this plug-in be used with Elements?
    Walter Rick Long
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  18. #43
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: Velvia Action

    Unfortunately, no. I just looked up the plugin and it can only be used with Photoshop 6 and above. There are other ways to get Photoshop, though...I just wouldn't happen to know any of them.
    Sean Massey
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  19. #44
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Archiving

    Archiving digital is much easier than film! With film, you have one original only. No way to make an exact copy, no way to make a backup. Every effort I made with film was to try and insure that the conditions were just right. Project a slide? You help destroy it. Negatives? Twenty years max.

    With digital, each copy is as good as the original. I keep my digital stuff on one hard drive and back it up on a portable hard drive. Fast, easy, efficient. Hard drives are so cheap it's like buying bubble gum. When my hard drive bit the dust after almost 10 years of use, no problem. I just copied over the images from the backup. Where is all my film now? Thirty years of film lost in the last move to Maryland. No backups there at all, boxes and boxes of chemically-plastered plastic gone for good.

    I think people have gotten so used to the ease of digital they expect so much more. Don't think so? Remember when microwave ovens actually seemed fast...?
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  20. #45
    Learning more with every "click" mjs1973's Avatar
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    Re: Archiving

    I shoot mostly digital, but I still have a couple hundred bucks worth of film in my freezer. Mosty Velvia that I love to take on those special trips and vacations. I hope the price for developing doesn't go thru the roof as time goes on.

    I have used the Fred Miranda Velvia Vision action and I was pretty pleased with it. I think it's pretty easy to go over the top with it, but then again, isn't that what Velvia is all about, over the top color saturation?
    Mike

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  21. #46
    Hardcore...Nikon Speed's Avatar
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    Smile Re: The Real Irony Of This....

    Thanks for the comments Masdog. As I said, I was playing devils adocate. I know the prices are coming down on hard drives. I know split hard drives and external hard drives are viable solutions. But it still isn't cheap.

    Frankly, I wasn't interested in digital until the D70 came along. That was the first digital camera that impressed me with it's colors and a fairly reasonable price (still three times what I paid for my N80 though). I can see myself getting a digital camera eventually, but it's a costly undertaking. Maybe by the time I can afford it, the achival problems wouldn't be a real issue anymore.

    In the meantime, I love my film cameras. I love having the option of choosing which film I want to shoot. (I know digital camera's are starting to simulate different films). I love the look of NPH and Porta, the colors and detail in Velvia and Provia. I know Superia Xtra 400 like the back of my hand. I know how that film is going to perform in most every situation, and I wouldn't be caught without it in my camera bag. I don't believe film is dead, despite the big push to digital. Guys like me, and Brian and Rick are going to keep it alive for years to come.

    :-)
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  22. #47
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Archiving

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Fanelli
    Archiving digital is much easier than film! With film, you have one original only. No way to make an exact copy, no way to make a backup.
    I have to agree here. Slide dupes can be really good, but never 100%. Really, the best backup for film is digital (scanning, copied to two places like CD and hard drive). Speed is right that CD's don't hold a lot of info - if you shoot jpegs they're fine but if you start shooting a lot of RAW you'll start burning thru your storage capacity about three times faster. I've found that where I might have fit a couple of folders on a CD with jpeg, I now have to split one folder on to more than one CD with RAW (still worth it though). Never worked with DVD's but I'm sure that will be the standard before too long.

    Having a copy of all of my digital images on an external USB2 hard drive is really fast, and not that expensive. For a couple hundred bucks you can get a high-capacity drive that will hold a few years worth of images for most people. It's much faster than looking thru boxes of slides, and I'm pretty well organized too. Could be faster yet if I used browsing software with keywords, etc and searched that way but there is some time involved with setting all of that up and I haven't found it necessary in my case.

    I have nothing against film, and like I've always said I think there's a look to it that sometimes can't easily be duplicated with digital (grainy B&W, in particular). There are some cases where film is a better medium, but then there are advantages and disadvantages to everything.

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