I got yelled at today

apparently it is a federal crime to take photos of public transportation as per homeland security! Anyone know where we can get updated laws pertaining to photography now that more laws than ever are in place?

you guys got it rough down in the states
Come to Canada

I found this...http://www.straphangers.org/photoban/newsrel.htm but it's not a federal law, it's just an MTA "rule". I also found this about public transport in SF...http://www.resonant.org/node/454.

As an aside, I have a professor who visited North Korea a couple of years ago. After one of her colleagues took a picture in a direction not dictated as "acceptable" by their North Korean "escort", the security guys promptly pounced on him, opened the camera, and exposed the roll of film...In Egypt, we had to be careful not to take pictures of anything that might have been considered "strategic", including public bridges in Cairo. Now I'm no liberal, but if we have to stop taking pictures of public property from public property for reasons of "national security"...What's next? People need to chill out...

What form of "public transportation" were you taking pictures of?

I took pictures of airplanes landing last year, and felt really weird doing it. But nobody stopped me ... I guess probably nobody saw me, I was in a parking lot a few miles from the airport.

Why was I taking pictures of airplanes, you ask? I was trying to get a shot of "planes, trains, and automobiles" -- there was a highway with a train track behind it (and a train rumbling through) with airplanes landing above. It was cool although I never got the shot I wanted.

I'm getting to be more self-conscious when shooting anywhere near transportation places. I noticed new LARGE signs upon entering the Lincoln tunnel "No photographs" or something to that effect.

Liz

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Originally Posted by kellybean

What form of "public transportation" were you taking pictures of?

I took pictures of airplanes landing last year, and felt really weird doing it. But nobody stopped me ... I guess probably nobody saw me, I was in a parking lot a few miles from the airport.

Why was I taking pictures of airplanes, you ask? I was trying to get a shot of "planes, trains, and automobiles" -- there was a highway with a train track behind it (and a train rumbling through) with airplanes landing above. It was cool although I never got the shot I wanted.

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This is why I like shooting skimming and surfing. There are no real rules and regulations to what I can and can't shoot

what is skimming?

Yeah, sometimes it's just easier to shoot rocks & trees. Sometimes they listen better than people too!

I've heard a lot of stories about photographers being told that they can't photograph something when there really isn't any law stopping them from doing it. How much you want to challenge that in any particular situation is up to you though. This site should provide some info on what you can and can't do.

Kelly....Just so happens that I took these ealier this month when I took a trip to the coast. Not the greatest, but will give you the idea of what skimming is. It is fun...I use to do this many, many, many years ago when I had coordination and balance....LOL.

It's one thing for someone to ask you what you're doing. But it's ridiculous to have a law against taking pictures of public transportation. Doesn't seem like it will do anything but piss people off. I'm sure it makes a good campaign claim for some politician, though. Were you approached by law enforcement or someone else? What kind of public transportation?

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Originally Posted by kellybean

what is skimming?

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This is skimming...

http://www.skimonline2.com/scripts/m...362900036k.jpg
http://www.skimonline2.com/scripts/m...3IMG_2005k.jpg
http://www.skimonline.com/multimedia...im36/36-08.jpg

It's very similar to surfing, except instead of paddling into waves you run onto the board from the sand and then transition to water and do turns and airs and stuff. I skim and surf all the time and I shoot both. These are some of my shots. On the first one you can clearly see the path on the water out to the wave. Skimboards don't need any fins and can be turned a lot tighter than surfboards, but you can only skim in areas where the waves break really close to shore. It's dangerous if you don't know what you are doing.

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Originally Posted by DownByFive

In Egypt, we had to be careful not to take pictures of anything that might have been considered "strategic", including public bridges in Cairo. Now I'm no liberal, but if we have to stop taking pictures of public property from public property for reasons of "national security"...What's next? People need to chill out...

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Interesting considering pictures of the license plates of the cars traveling over those bridges can be photographed from satellites.

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Originally Posted by Arctirus

Interesting considering pictures of the license plates of the cars traveling over those bridges can be photographed from satellites.

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That was my first thought too...But then again, this whole "no pics of public transportation" is sort of similar, since I can log onto to any public transportation system's website and see a ton of pics and probably even a few webcams...So it's not like the information isn't out there. I guess people just feel more comfortable when they think they have control over the information...

Janie,

I get yelled at everyday, I call it "dating."

In all seriousness, when something like that happens, be civil, try to ask the person as to what their position is, see if they are even someone who is qualified to be telling you what you can or cannot do. Inform them that you will be more than happy to comply if they can show you the rule or law, or at the very least tell you where you can look it up, or who you can call. If they don't provide you with the information, ask for their name, position and who their supervisor is. Sometimes there is someone there who rules over them who you can talk to immediately, talk to them if they are present, and if they are being a pain, get the name of THEIR supervisor. Someone, somewhere, will not be happy to have annoyed citizens calling them, it's just a matter of getting to them. At the very least, pestering the peons like this will potentially get them to drop their power trip and to make it easier for photogs in general to go about their business. The more we bitch and moan, in a civilized manner of course, the harder it will be for these people to put knee-jerk ideas into action. Most of these people tend to be frustrated and any time they can get gullible schmucks to believe them and ruin their day, they will go for it. And sadly, people with tripods and big fast lenses tend to be the primary targets. Yeah, like a terrorist would sit in front a major institution and point a 12 inch lens at it. If I was making the rules, I'd be MUCH more concerned about the loners with small point and shoots, simply because IF they are a terrorist, they do not want to be noticed. But then again, that is more thought than most politicians put into making rules, so I mind as well just shut my mouth...

Janie,
If you are "out of the street" expect it.
I was out last week, shooting on State Street , here in Salt Lake.
I was waiting to cross the street, when "this guy" who is in his car, making a right turn rolls down his window, asking me "what I was doing". I just kind of said, "I am out and about", and left it at that. I was noticing that there was traffic building behind him wanting to turn as well.
So he goes on his way, as do I.
I cross the street and go into a bar wanting to see if there was anything worth photographing there.
I was only inside a few minutes and who do you think I see in the parking lot? The same guy!
He wants to know what I was doing. I explained to him that I was out photographing for a project on State Street. He asks, "Why? I say, becasue.
Same question...
I reply, "Because I find it an interesting subject."
He was all concerned about me photographing people without threir consent, when I expalin to him that I don't exactly need it, because we are "out in public".
We go round and round, and "this guy" is really starting to annoy me, because I know what I am doing and what not.
So he finally leaves, perhaps he was just as frustrated as I was, and leaves me with this "word of caution or advice". That I should check with local and state stautes regarding me photographing out in public..

Some poeple?!

Brian

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Originally Posted by Janie

apparently it is a federal crime to take photos of public transportation as per homeland security! Anyone know where we can get updated laws pertaining to photography now that more laws than ever are in place?

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I just looked at their website and they have hi-res photos on the site! What the hell! If it's so illegal, shouldn't that apply to everyone?

http://nywaterway.com/hi_res.html ARGH!

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Originally Posted by Janie

apparently it is a federal crime to take photos of public transportation as per homeland security! Anyone know where we can get updated laws pertaining to photography now that more laws than ever are in place?

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ASK These guys WHY?

I email them all the time ! Remember THEY WORK FOR YOU!

Assemblyman Peter J. Biondi, R., NJ Legislative District 16 <AsmBiondi@NJLEG.ORG>

Assemblyman Christopher "Kip" Bateman, R. NJ Legislative District 16 <AsmBateman@njleg.org>

frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov

Assemblyman Doug Fisher, D., NJ Legislative District 3 <AsmFisher@njleg.org>

Give them hell people!
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/contactus

mailto:president@whitehouse.gov
mailto:vice.president@whitehouse.gov

I assure you... once you address them with a FULL NAME and ADDRESS, you mailbox will fill up :) MINE does .

If we let THEM control US, then we are NOT a democracy ;)

I don't actually remember it ever becoming a rule, and I was following it for awhile. I see tourists take pictures on the train on almost a daily basis, and no one says a thing. Who yelled at you? Someone official, or someone having a bad day, wanting to be a jerk and take it out on you?

I'll dig around and see if I can find if the rule actually came into being. If so, you can probably always apply for a permit like you have to in Boston.

Megan

I couldn't find a thing when I searched the NYC.gov site.
I'll call 311 tonight and see if I can find out by talking to a human.

megan

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Originally Posted by Janie

apparently it is a federal crime to take photos of public transportation as per homeland security! Anyone know where we can get updated laws pertaining to photography now that more laws than ever are in place?

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Well, last week end I was in NYC. On an hike in the Financial District saturday morning I passed by a building which possibly was a federal one (I can't say for sure, there was no clear indication and I didn't paid much attention as the building itself was of no particular interest). Anyway, I climb few step and walk in front of the said building looking toward Water St. in search of potentially interesting scenes to shot with my camera in hands.
Eventually, a security guy come out of the building (and I was by no mean close from the main entrance) and start watching me. I pay no attention to him on purpose and keep doing my things quietly. Eventually, the guy come at me and ask me to leave the building immediate perimeters as "it is forbiden to shoot pictures of or from this area"....
I complied without discussing because: 1) I was in vacations and didn't felt like loosing time with this guy 2) I found nothing to shoot and 3) I doubt that I could have a worthy discussion with a guy paid to kick people out.
Let say that I find is action to be well hmm.... (let remain polite) pointless but I just left.

It felt odd to go throught that situation though....

Seb

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Originally Posted by megan

I couldn't find a thing when I searched the NYC.gov site.
I'll call 311 tonight and see if I can find out by talking to a human.

megan

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I was using my rebel - what do you want to bet that if I were using my smaller camera, they wouldn't say boo. I think it's descrimination against Digital SLRs! They are jealous!

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Originally Posted by 92135011

you guys got it rough down in the states
Come to Canada

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You know what's funny? I'm a dual citizen and I get worked over worse when I go into Canada than when I come back to the US. And that's even when I show my Canadian ID.

how do you become a dual citizen?

Did you have a big camera? If you have a little camera, I bet no one would bother you!
That is how I feel about the whole thing. I'd be tempted to take my mother's camera out since it's 5.5 mp's, but i'm shooting stock photography so I want to use all my various lenses. I'm just completely annoyed that I have my beautiful camera and people get nervous about me shooting with it as if it were a weapon! We were going into some bad areas and my friends and I were joking that they can drive and I'll shoot and I suddenly got some really quizzicle looks from someone around me - I yelled WHAT! I'm a Photographer! We shoot with cameras! Heh. jerks. So now it's a joke - hey! grap the 35d and we'll go out doing drive by shootings! lol People are just way to uptight.

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Originally Posted by mtbbrian

Janie,
If you are "out of the street" expect it.
I was out last week, shooting on State Street , here in Salt Lake.
I was waiting to cross the street, when "this guy" who is in his car, making a right turn rolls down his window, asking me "what I was doing". I just kind of said, "I am out and about", and left it at that. I was noticing that there was traffic building behind him wanting to turn as well.
So he goes on his way, as do I.
I cross the street and go into a bar wanting to see if there was anything worth photographing there.
I was only inside a few minutes and who do you think I see in the parking lot? The same guy!
He wants to know what I was doing. I explained to him that I was out photographing for a project on State Street. He asks, "Why? I say, becasue.
Same question...
I reply, "Because I find it an interesting subject."
He was all concerned about me photographing people without threir consent, when I expalin to him that I don't exactly need it, because we are "out in public".
We go round and round, and "this guy" is really starting to annoy me, because I know what I am doing and what not.
So he finally leaves, perhaps he was just as frustrated as I was, and leaves me with this "word of caution or advice". That I should check with local and state stautes regarding me photographing out in public..

Some poeple?!

Brian

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Originally Posted by kellybean

how do you become a dual citizen?

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Only if we like you....:rolleyes: In all seriousness, usually the parents are one american/one canadian. I know the rules have changed drastically over the last 5 years though.

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Originally Posted by Janie

Did you have a big camera?

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Janie,
I was out with my F100 and flash.
I also had my back back on my back.
Brian

I'd tell them to "Put up, or shut up".
Make them show me who they were, what gave them the authority to make me stop, and what law are you talking about?
All too often, these are little people with a little power, trying to play the bigshot and going on their little power trip. I've seen it so often, it makes me sick. (And makes me want to head them like a shrimp!)

Here's a link to your rights as a photographer. Print it out and carry a copy of it in your camera bag: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Pop Quiz: What do the following have in common?

In 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by...
In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by...
In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by...
During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by...
In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by...
In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by...
In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by...
In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by...
In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by...
In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by...
On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.Thousands of people were killed by...
In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against...
In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by....

Answer: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

So why in the world does our own government (and intellectual pygmies wearing security badges) harass Americans with cameras?!!!

Demand that they justify their actions, scream violation of your First Amendment Rights, show them your copy of The Photographers Rights, and write, call, and email your elected Representatives anytime you are harrassed.

OK, I'm done now. Just my two cents worth.

;-)

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Originally Posted by Speed

show them your copy of The Photographers Rights,

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Is this something a card or something you can get?
Where can I find a copy of this?
Brian

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Originally Posted by mtbbrian

Is this something a card or something you can get?
Where can I find a copy of this?
Brian

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If you click on the link, it takes you directly to the page. It is a PDF file that you can print off on your computer. They also have a version you can download onto your Palm Pilot.

Here's the attorney's link that wrote The Photographers Rights:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

I wish it came in a card, preferably laminated, so it would hold up to being carried around in your camera bag. Bookmark the site, and print out copies as you need them. You can always cut it down and laminate it yourself to make it into a card.

Hope this helps.

:-)

It's no wonder you are #1 Nikon Samuari!
Thanks!
Brian

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Originally Posted by Speed

Pop Quiz: What do the following have in common?

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Now Speed, plenty of horrible crimes have been committed by people who don't fit that description... A guy who looks like Timothy McVeigh or Jeffery Dahlmer would fit in pretty easily almost anywhere here in the US.

Thanks for posting the Photographer's Bill of Rights. That's what I originally thought of when first reading this post, but couldn't remember where to find it.

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Originally Posted by Janie

apparently it is a federal crime to take photos of public transportation as per homeland security! Anyone know where we can get updated laws pertaining to photography now that more laws than ever are in place?

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And you live in the land of the free do you?

I spoke to the head of homeland security in my county and after explaining the harrassment i've gotten for trying to take pictures, he told me there are no laws against taking ANY photos - IF you are on private property, they can ask you to leave, but not in the name of homeland security! He said if I have any problems, tell them to call him personally and he will explain the factual law to whomever is giving me a hard time! He said that should take care of any questions or comments. He has all my info including a copy of my drivers license so that if anyone does call the police stations, they will say I have special clearance! ;) At least i'm connected around here - I know a lot of cops and they pointed me in the right direction!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janie

apparently it is a federal crime to take photos of public transportation as per homeland security! Anyone know where we can get updated laws pertaining to photography now that more laws than ever are in place?

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Janie,
I havent clicked on any links, but I have gone through this thread twice and I still don't know what you were taking pictures of.
It is ludicris to stop someone from taking photos with an slr when anyone with a cell phone could map out an area.
Putting the shoe on the other foot, security gaurds or whatever are just shmoes that are being paid or think that they're being paid to be paranoid.
So try to be nice... ( it's all been covered ).
:D In case all that fails, by a tripod or monopod that you feel comfortable with, a heavy boxing bag, and practice you're whacking technique! :D
Mark

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Originally Posted by Speed

If you click on the link, it takes you directly to the page. It is a PDF file that you can print off on your computer. They also have a version you can download onto your Palm Pilot.

Here's the attorney's link that wrote The Photographers Rights:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

I wish it came in a card, preferably laminated, so it would hold up to being carried around in your camera bag. Bookmark the site, and print out copies as you need them. You can always cut it down and laminate it yourself to make it into a card.

Hope this helps.

:-)

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Speed, they have laminating kits in many office supply stores and major discount stores (Wal Mart, Target, Office Max, etc). ... many of them heatless and supposedly easy to use. If you *really* want to carry it around in your wallet, print it at reduced size and laminate it.

Another place to get info is www.photopermit.org. I found this in an article in Pop Photo magazine. They have forums and articles for these kinds of issues in the U.S. as well as other countries.

thanks for the link, jsmith. Very interesting. I've bookmarked it.

hey, if anyone needs some "Whacking on heavy bag" pointers, that's something i can definitely hlep with!
:)

megan

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Originally Posted by kellybean

Speed, they have laminating kits in many office supply stores and major discount stores (Wal Mart, Target, Office Max, etc). ... many of them heatless and supposedly easy to use. If you *really* want to carry it around in your wallet, print it at reduced size and laminate it.

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I'm familiar with the heatless laminating kits, and they are great.

Printing it at a reduced size may work better than cutting it up and making it two sided. Good idea Kelly!

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Originally Posted by another view

Now Speed, plenty of horrible crimes have been committed by people who don't fit that description... A guy who looks like Timothy McVeigh or Jeffery Dahlmer would fit in pretty easily almost anywhere here in the US.

Thanks for posting the Photographer's Bill of Rights. That's what I originally thought of when first reading this post, but couldn't remember where to find it.

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You are correct - we have plenty of home-grown miscreats and low-lifes right here within our borders. I was trying to make the point that harassing law-abiding Americans as potential terrorists just doesn't make sense to me. Besides, when we turn on each other, then the terrorists have accomplished their goal. There are certain risks you accept by living in a free society. I'll take freedom over "security" anyday. :-)

The Photographer's Bill Of Rights is something I feel that every photographer should have. You can't defend your rights if you don't know what your rights are. I'm glad we have this sort of information available to us, and I'm more than happy to share it with everyone here.