Glacier National Park Sept 17-24,2006

[racingpinarello]

Hello all,

I am currently going to Glacier National Park for the week of Sept 17-24, and plan to do a lot of photography. Since my wife is unable to hike, due to being pregnant, I am forced to hike alone. I'm prepared with canned air horns, aluminum walking stick, and pepper spray for the last chance, but having somebody on the trail would be better. Bears are a problem...

If there is anybody that is going at the same time and want to team up for hiking let me know. Also, any suggestions on locations would also be welcome.

I'm planning on using large format and 35mm for the animal life.

Cheers,
Loren

http://www.lorencrannell.com

[Dylan8i]

are you planning on just hiking or backpacking as well? hiking you should be fine as long as your making noise and don't sneak up on a bear.

i'd love to go to glacier, one of the top parks in the country if you ask me. is september alittle late in teh season to be going?

[Photo-John]

Bear bells - get some. The best defence against bears is letting them know you're coming. That and luck. I'm scared of bears.

[photophorous]

Loren,

I'd love to go with you, but can't. I do a lot of backpacking when I can. Dylan's right about making noise. You can attach a small bell to your pack so you are constantly making enough noise to keep the bears informed of your presence. They don't like to be surprised.

Also, make sure to keep your food away from your tent at night. You probably already know this, but if not, make sure you read up on bear proofing your food at your campsite.

If you don't have one of those LED head lamps, get one. They're awesome when you need both hands in the dark, and the batteries last a long time.

I love talking about this stuff. I'm trying to plan a photo trip to Big Bend this winter. Can't wait!

Have fun!
Paul

[schrackman]

One thing I've never understood, is why in a national park or a state park people are not permitted to carry guns if they plan on hiking the back country. While a bear (or cougar) attack is remote, and the great majority of them can be scared off using the above methods, there is always that 1% factor. Carrying a gun is just common sense, but unfortunately certain of our government officials do not trust its citizenry enough to use one in our park system. Ok, gettin' off my soap box.

Hope you have a safe and enjoyable trip, Loren, and come back with some great pictures! And congratulations! I had no idea Karen was with child!

[racingpinarello]

Thanks Ray....

I was thinking that I could bring my starter pistol (gun dog training) and that I could scare away any grizzlie that try to attack me. My cousin was attacked by a bear up in northern california, luckily it was dear season so he was able to protect himself.

I plan on tying a can with rocks in it to make noise. Thanks for the congrats too... we're excited and so far everything is going well.

Loren

[racingpinarello]

Actually the bear bells don't work as well in Glacier...that's why I'm bringing the air horn and a can full of little rocks to make a ton of noise. Also, we're getting a sattelite phone for the week so I can call if there is an emergency.

It's a lot different from our original trip planned for Bali.. We're exchanging the risk of mosquitos for bears. ;)

[racingpinarello]

Thanks Paul..

Love Big Bend..went there during high school and was truly impressed. I'm not doing any overnighters as of now so food shouldn't be a risk.

I have several headlamps from my mountaineering days which we use all of the time. Life savers...

Loren

[photophorous]

Actually the bear bells don't work as well in Glacier...

Loren,

Just curious. Why don't the bells work in Glacier? Are the bears more dangerous or just deaf?

I haven't been to Glacier yet, but it's on my list.

Paul

[Photo-John]

Carrying a gun is just common sense, but unfortunately certain of our government officials do not trust its citizenry enough to use one in our park system. Ok, gettin' off my soap box.

I don't trust most of our citizenry with guns. They're more likely to kill themselves than protect themselves. Plus, I think you'd have to be pretty good and have a pretty big gun to deal with a grizzly. I hope to never see one up close. Last year I rode some trails in Alberta where I believe someone was killed by a grizzly earlier in the season. Being out in front made me a little nervous. I also followed grizzly tracks out of a trail in Glacier, once. We later found out that hikers about an hour in front of us had been attacked. So grizzlies in Glacier are no joke.

Hope I'm not making things worse for you, Loren. Sounds like you're doing the right stuff.

Do you know how to tell the difference between a brown bear and a grizzly?


Answer: Grizzlies jingle when they walk. Get it?

That's a Canuck joke.

[racingpinarello]

From previous hikers in Glacier, they have less effect because they are not loud enough if there is a head wind. The joke is that they see a lot of bells in the Grizzly poop.

[Dylan8i]

i also agree that i would not WANT to be in a national park full of people carrying guns. its a risk you take when you enter a park if you choose not to accept it don't enter. (i worked in National parks all summer)

and the joke is they smell like garlic and have bells in their scat.

[photophorous]

From previous hikers in Glacier, they have less effect because they are not loud enough if there is a head wind. The joke is that they see a lot of bells in the Grizzly poop.

Oh yeah, the wind. Didn't think about that. Well, I'm sure your can o'rocks will be plenty loud. Check with the ranger about recent sightings in the area, so you can avoid any known trouble spots. Wear lots of Old Spice. Hmmm...what else. Last year in Zion, I passed a couple on the trail that had their iPod playing through battery powered speakers on one of their packs. I was wishing a bear would find them, but in your situation I guess it could be helpful. A little Celine Dione should do the trick.

Paul

[natatbeach]

sounds dangerous---how about you don't go and say you did!?

sure you could find images on ebay worthy of calling them your own for the right price LOL

[schrackman]

LOL...you guys just had to get me back on my soapbox!
I promise, after this I'll quit highjacking the thread.

I don't trust most of our citizenry with guns. They're more likely to kill themselves than protect themselves.

i also agree that i would not WANT to be in a national park full of people carrying guns.

Why not? People who use guns are far less dangerous than people trained in the field of medical health. I went to the FBI site for statistics, and found that for the year 2004 there was recorded 9,326 murders by firearms. (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...e/murder.html).

Compare this to medical statistics from a link provided by the United States Health & Human Services Department (http://www.ahrq.gov/wh21900.htm). Here is an excerpt (I've bolded certain parts for emphasis):

Preventable Medical Errors: A National Challenge. Although the U.S. offers some of the best health care in the world, the number of medical errors is still too high.

Medical errors are common and costly. The IOM estimates that over half of adverse medical events are due to preventable medical errors, causing up to 98,000 deaths a year and costing as much as $29 billion annually. One study of over 30,000 patients indicated that nearly 60 percent of patients suffering adverse events in a hospital stay were subjected to a preventable medical error.

Medication errors account for a significant portion of preventable adverse events. The IOM estimates the number of lives lost to preventable medication errors account for over 7,000 deaths annually in hospitals alone and tens of thousands more in outpatient facilities nationwide. These errors increase hospital costs by an estimated $2 billion, and nursing homes costs by over $3 billion. A study of hospitals in New York State indicated that drug complications represent 19 percent of all adverse events, and that 45 percent of these adverse events were caused by medical errors. In this study, 30 percent of individuals with drug-related injuries died.

So statistically, we are far, far more likely to become the victim of a trained medical doctor or technician than we would be from a person who uses a gun in a malicious manner. And you have even far less to concern yourself with where it pertains to law abiding citizens who are trained in gun safety (like me). And think of this...if a criminal approaches your campsite, and sees that the six hikers camping there are armed with .357s, just how likely do you suppose it is that he's gonna try to steal your gear at gunpoint? But if they're unarmed...easy pickins.

Hehe, and that's what one is to a bear too without a firearm.

By the way, Loren, I am not implying to you or anyone else that one should take a gun with him in a national park. That's illegal and one can get into BIG trouble. In fact, I'd even check first with the park's main ranger about the starter gun before you bring it along. Whatever you do, please be safe so that you can come back in one piece.

[schrackman]

A little Celine Dione should do the trick.

LOL...or Prince.

[Ronnoco]

Bear bells - get some. The best defence against bears is letting them know you're coming. That and luck. I'm scared of bears.

I shot bears with a camera along with my mother when I was 13 from distances of about 10 feet. I found that if you move very slowly, stay part of the background, so to speak and don't appear at all threatening, the bear will often ignore you. We were never threatened or chased by a bear during the month we were shooting. Method in our madness or dumb luck, who knows?

Ronnoco

[efjeld]

The joke is that they see a lot of bells in the Grizzly poop.

It's also a little "peppery" from the meal of Bear Bells and pepper spray.

Have fun out there!

[schrackman]

I'd say by the grace of God, Ronnoco!! Remember that guy who lived among the grizzlies for years and finally got mauled to death? He was doing exactly what you did...filming from about 10 feet away, trying to move slowly and remain part of the background and non-threatening. Both he and his girlfriend became dinner. The point is, these creatures are wild, powerful, and dangerous. Getting that close is not a smart thing to do even for a nature expert, as these animals can attack without any apparent provocation from us and at any moment they so choose.

By the way, what a great thread. Who'da thunk it would provoke discussion about guns & bear safety?

I shot bears with a camera along with my mother when I was 13 from distances of about 10 feet. I found that if you move very slowly, stay part of the background, so to speak and don't appear at all threatening, the bear will often ignore you. We were never threatened or chased by a bear during the month we were shooting. Method in our madness or dumb luck, who knows?

Ronnoco

[Photo-John]

It's pretty easy to misuse statistics. Let me just throw out a couple of parries to your statistics.

One - you quote the number of murders by firearms, but not the number of murders + accidental deaths. If you're going to compare to accidental medicine-related deaths, you need to play more fairly with the numbers and compare apples to apples.

Two - Any one of us is a lot more likely to come in contact with medical treatment than a gun. Most of us seek some sort of medical treatment every year. So the likelihood of something going wrong there is a lot higher than the likelihood of something going wrong with a gun. That doesn't make accidental medical deaths, ok. But statistically, the amount of contact we have makes them more likely.

Last, and just to confuse you, I'm not anti-gun. I actually have a fondness for firearms. I just don't trust other people to be well-trained or respectful with them. After all, I see how they drive...

[natatbeach]

After all, I see how they drive...

thank God Galcier park isn't in massachusetts- the capital of road rage---and well just rage :mad2:

refer to google and articles of hockey dad beating down hockey coach in front of little tiny hockey players---incidents of people stopping in the middle of major highways and pounding each other---- the place I call home.

If you want wildlife bears ain't nothing come visit massachusetts

seriously ---be safe....

[racingpinarello]

Hey Gene that would be great. We are staying at the St Mary Lodge and Resort on the east entrance.

I'm only doing day trips and hopefully Karen can do some of the easier routes.

If you can make it that would be great.

Loren

[megan]

::::jealous::::

[jar_e]

*laugh* Funny story, I just came back from 4 days of camping/driving/getting lost in Waterton National Park (The Canadian side) and Glacier National Park. It's too bad I'm going back home to BC or else I'd drive town and join ya!

Have a great time, hopefully the weather holds up for you!

[schrackman]

It's pretty easy to misuse statistics. Let me just throw out a couple of parries to your statistics.

One - you quote the number of murders by firearms, but not the number of murders + accidental deaths. If you're going to compare to accidental medicine-related deaths, you need to play more fairly with the numbers and compare apples to apples.

Two - Any one of us is a lot more likely to come in contact with medical treatment than a gun. Most of us seek some sort of medical treatment every year. So the likelihood of something going wrong there is a lot higher than the likelihood of something going wrong with a gun. That doesn't make accidental medical deaths, ok. But statistically, the amount of contact we have makes them more likely.

Last, and just to confuse you, I'm not anti-gun. I actually have a fondness for firearms. I just don't trust other people to be well-trained or respectful with them. After all, I see how they drive...

lol...good final point. And I didn't take you to be anti-gun, just simply one who is more cautious than others.

But accidental deaths by guns are even far fewer than murders, somewhere to the tune of 1500-2000 per year give or take. So I knew they wouldn't factor in the equation very much when comparing the statistics.

btw, do you own any guns? I only have two now. A .22 rifle and a .32 pistol, the latter of which I am ready to turn in to the police department for destruction because I can no longer find a clip for it (I lost the two I had). It's basically useless to me now. I also used to be an avid hunter, too, but like photography it can take up a lot of your time and money and I can only barely afford to have one hobby at the moment.