Film: Hello or Goodbye?

For many years I've been wanting to get some of my early work (medium format) scanned. But waiting for medium format film scanner prices to come down and not wanting to send my originals out to be drum scanned and whatever other excuses kept me from digitizing my work.

I finally got my hands on an Epson Perfection 4490 flatbed scanner recently and the film scanner feature worked quite well (better than I expected actually). Not wanting to rescan and reprocess these images in the near future, I scanned my images at 4800x4800 dpi. The resulting 48-bit images were over 400 MB each! Needless to say, cleaning up these images has not been very fun - and before I thought the occasional dust speck on the sensor was "inconvenient" :)

I was contemplating going back to shooting film (I kept all my MF and some 35mm pieces). But this whole process got me second-guessing myself. The ease of digital, the wide latitude of digital, and the sharpness of digital imaging sensors make it tough to "go back". So I thought I'd post a poll (hope it works, never done one of those before). Also, if you have some additional thoughts, comments, or sample images of when you used film, please feel free to post them here.

This shot was taken with my Bronica ETRS (6x4.5) probably with my 50mm and warming filter (can't recall exactly now). The stranger was incidental and I actually remember being a little upset that he was there at the time - worked out well now. Fuji Velvia film.

I hear ya Loupey. I use film on occasion, but not very often. I have 2 rolls of B&W film I need to develop, and a bag full of E-6 film in the freezer. I use it on special occasions, like a big trip and things like that. I love the look of E-6 film, but getting it digitized is a pain in the butt.

I do want to try to shoot with a 4x5 sometime, but I'm not in a hurry to go down that road. I know that if/when I do, it will only be used a few times, so I can't justify the cost. Still something I want to do. I would actually like to build my own 4x5 camera.

I bought digital, then got into film.

It does have unique qualities that I feel can't be replicated in PS. Some people will differ with me. It doesn't bother me. I do know some people still use film for long night exposures, as digital can't compare there.

The only thing stopping me using film at the moment is the lack of time to develop and scan. I have everything sitting in the bathroom ready to go, including a roll.

I really like this photo. I've been meaning to get it printed as large as I can....one day :)

http://gallery.photographyreview.com...ium/img149.jpg

HP5 Plus, on a Canon A1, 50mm and around f2, maybe f2.8? Can't quite remember, not that it matters I guess.

Film will always be here. I love film and I love digital. My dad always complains how much film costs and asks me why I still sometimes use it. I think in today’s society they think newer usually mean's better. Film has all the potential digital has and vice versa. If everything wasn’t so driven on money, I bet that film can be improved beyond what we think its limits are. But to tell you the truth, I think film's "limits" gives it potential. Lets face it, digital gives us amazing control or to much control over the image. This is good and bad to some. For example like air line pilots, I bet they would absolutley hate it if there planes can fly 20,000 mph safley, but most of there passangers would absolutely love it. Sort of the Same with digital, I dont like the fact that I can replecate anything on the computer rather than doing it in real life. Captureing a breed of flying elephants in real life is almost imposible but in digital, we can digitally put it in the photograph. Thats not to say that all digital photographers do this, I certainl dont. I my self shoot digital most of the time, and I never tweek my photos too much. FILM FILM FILM!!

Really great shots guys or girls!!! I got to get me self a decent scanner

Loupey, that's a fantastic shot! It would be great with out the guy, but I think it's even better with him there.

There are many things that contribute to the allure of film for me, but frankly, one of the biggest is the cameras. I like turning the film advance lever, I like focusing manually, I like turning an aperture ring, I like big bright viewfinders with matte screens, and I like the simplicity, solid feel and small size of 70s & 80s manual focus bodies. I like the huge selection of fast, sharp, small and solidly built prime lenses that can be had for cheap. And most of all, I like how all of this comes together to force me to pay attention and think about what I'm doing. I guess I'm the kind of person that needs that. If someone would make a full frame digital camera body that had the form of a small 70s or 80s manual focus body, and the same basic features, just with a digital sensor and no film, I'd buy it and I'd use it a lot more than I use my 450D. But, I'd still shoot film.

Film will probably get more expensive and there will be less and less variety, but it is still being improved and it will be a very long time before it's gone completely, if ever.

Paul

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/...ac4b848239.jpg

I only shoot digital because the client demands it. I need to be able to give them images fairly immediately. For my personal work, which is no small hobbyist endeavor, I shoot film. I develop in my bathroom, on the average, 2x a week. Both mediums have their advantages. I like burning a CD and sending it off to the client and being done with it. I also love sitting in my bathroom, agitating every 30 seconds, and anticipating magic when the images are finally revealed. I hope film never goes away.

Funny that you posted this. I bought two rolls of film today. After two years of learning my dslr, I thought I'd see if I have actually learned how to take a picture without the lcd/histogram and the knowledge that I could "tweak" it in PS. (I won't be developing my own).

And because it's more expensive than digital, I'm going to try use it in an effort to slow down and think about my shots a bit more.

I'm calling it the "film experiment". ;)

Frankly, I think you might want to keep up with film if only for the advantages of the Medium Format size and lenses. For the stuff you do now, maybe don't go for a 48-bit scan (seriously, anything over 16 bits is going to be major overkill), and scan the stuff you know is really good at the higher quality.

I just got myself a 6x7 camera, actually, because I wanted the advantages of the MF system and to start working with film seriously.

I remember the first time(1968) my Dad helped me develop my first roll of B&W film using the little black plastic thingy(one step something).

And then he showed me the magic you could do with the photo enlarger.
Very fond memories...The digital generation will miss those experiences.

Thank you, everyone, for the thoughtful posts - I very much enjoyed reading them.

While I hope this thread does not become a which-is-better-thread, I do see the allure of using film (again). I too think and hope that film will be around for a long time.

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Originally Posted by photophorous

...There are many things that contribute to the allure of film for me, but frankly, one of the biggest is the cameras. I like turning the film advance lever, I like focusing manually, I like turning an aperture ring, I like big bright viewfinders with matte screens, and I like the simplicity, solid feel and small size of 70s & 80s manual focus bodies. ...I guess I'm the kind of person that needs that. If someone would make a full frame digital camera body that had the form of a small 70s or 80s manual focus body, and the same basic features, just with a digital sensor and no film, I'd buy it and I'd use it a lot more than I use my 450D...

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That's the big draw for me too and probably the reason why I held on to my equipment. Like cars, "they don't build them like they used to" and for good reasons.

In scanning my images, I discovered that these images are not at sharp as I had expected. It very well may be the consumer grade scanner at fault here, but the fine detail is not as well rendered. Something I couldn't see directly by using a 10x loupe.

I wonder if my current Canon "L" lenses are actually sharper than my older medium format stuff. Too bad I can't mount new lenses on old bodies to shoot film (I have a 35mm film back also) - fun to think about tho :)

Certainly some people will stay stuck in the which-is-better debate, but I prefer to see the two (film/digital) as different, but fundamentally the same, in that they are for capturing images and understanding light.

Though I also remember the sense of wonder from seeing an image appear, like magic, in the developing bath, I confess to preferring processing digital images on a computer.

Thanks for the thread, Loupey.

Cheers,

It's fun looking back through the old shots - I see just how few images I took. I couple times I would shoot one scene with a whole roll, perhaps a roll and a half - but that's still less than 2 dozen images :p Usually it was just 3 or 4 shots.

I never had a working in-camera meter - usually shot with a waist-level finder or the standard prism finder (mechanical only - no electronics) - so everything had to be meticulously thought out. I eventually bought a used AE prism finder but it never worked right.

But everything was slowed down. And there didn't seem to be so many other photographers running about :p

Another shot. Probably with the 75mm this time. Again the film was the Fuji Velvia (my film of choice).

I'm in the same boat as danic in regards to getting into film AFTER digital. I did shoot film long before digital came around, but I would consider my film days as nothing more than snapshots. I had no idea different types of film gave different results. I had no idea that the lab was making changes for me, no idea there was a difference in the quality of lenses etc. When I got my first DSLR in 2004 it was a huge eye opener. I really started to get into photography and I leared a great deal in that first year. The practice I got with my DSLR, gave me the confidence to know how to use the manual settings on my film cameras. From there, I took a B&W film class, started experimenting with different types of films and went from there. Here is an image I shot back in 2004 on Velvia 50. I think this was shot with my AE-1. It was scanned my a PR member (Loren) who I haven't seen around in a while. The file size from the 35mm slide is 107MB at 5295x3530 pixels. It was scanned with a Nikon Coolscan. If I remember correctly he used the 8000 model.

This discussion reminds me of a discussion I heard on a podcast earlier this week. They were talking about the current #1 song. I don't remember what the song was, but it was a remake, or had parts of an older song in it. They were talking about how the younger generation doesn't have any clue that the song is a remake, because they had never heard the original. I wonder, is the same thing is going to happen to film some day, or is it already happening? Do some young people only know photography through digital?

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Originally Posted by Cathathome

Certainly some people will stay stuck in the which-is-better debate, but I prefer to see the two (film/digital) as different, but fundamentally the same, in that they are for capturing images and understanding light.

Though I also remember the sense of wonder from seeing an image appear, like magic, in the developing bath, I confess to preferring processing digital images on a computer.

Thanks for the thread, Loupey.

Cheers,

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I think a student of photography today, using only digital equipment, has the same appreciation and will require the same understanding of light as those who grew up with only film.

The tools are different. The fundamentals are the same. The final result is up to the individual.

Several years ago I was shocked to learn that my son's elementary "progressive" school did not offer handwriting courses (no cursive whatsoever) because they felt it was obsolete. Kids were still taught to "write" but without writing.

Despite our best efforts, my son still has terrible handwriting. But loves English and excels in class...

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Originally Posted by mjs1973

Here is an image I shot back in 2004 on Velvia 50. I think this was shot with my AE-1. It was scanned my a PR member (Loren) who I haven't seen around in a while. The file size from the 35mm slide is 107MB at 5295x3530 pixels. It was scanned with a Nikon Coolscan. If I remember correctly he used the 8000 model.

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Mike, this is a GORGEOUS image! The subtle hues and the whites are a perfect match for film IMO.

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Originally Posted by Loupey

That's the big draw for me too and probably the reason why I held on to my equipment. Like cars, "they don't build them like they used to" and for good reasons.

In scanning my images, I discovered that these images are not at sharp as I had expected. It very well may be the consumer grade scanner at fault here, but the fine detail is not as well rendered. Something I couldn't see directly by using a 10x loupe.

I wonder if my current Canon "L" lenses are actually sharper than my older medium format stuff. Too bad I can't mount new lenses on old bodies to shoot film (I have a 35mm film back also) - fun to think about tho :)

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I don't mean to start a film vs digital debate. There are many things that are different and hard to compare. But I think in terms of resolution, how much real detail can be recorded, 6 x 4.5 film still has an edge on any DSLR under about 20 MP. It just might not be practical for most people to extract all that detail (drum scan or wet print). I suspect your scanner is your limit. 4800 dpi is probably more of a marketing spec than a realistic capability of the scanner. Have you scanned at 2400 dpi and compared to see if there is any less detail?

Even a good film scan will need some sharpening, just like a digital camera image. But sharpness is a different thing altogether. A 6MP DSLR will look sharper up to the point where it runs out of detail. That's just the nature of digital sensors.

Paul

I kept shooting film when I got my P&S digital. A year latter when the D70 came into my life I put all 8 of my film cameras in the camera cabinet and they have not had a roll go through them since, nearly five years now. I kept thinking that sure I'll shot film for some things but it just never happened. I love digital! Now if I could get my hands on a vintage Leica that might change.

Guess you guys know where I stand on this. Shot some P&S film when I was a kid. When I decided to really get into photography, I started with digital and it helped me to learn a lot quickly. There was always something about black and white film that intrigued me though and once I developed my first roll, it was bye-bye digital with the exception of using my housemates digi P&S for posting stuff on Ebay, etc. For me, I just love the whole process of it. I like taking my time when I shoot now and driving home with the anticipation of what will come out of the developer. I love sitting in the darkroom huffing fixer and stop bath...lol As a matter of fact, just spent the last 3 hours sitting over trays doing the first round of film speed testing for the 4x5.

For all you guys with MF and LF gear sitting around that you don't want, I'll dust it off for you :D I'll even pay the shipping...lol

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Originally Posted by Xia_Ke

When I decided to really get into photography, I started with digital and it helped me to learn a lot quickly.

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So there's hope for me yet? http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/sha...icons/razz.gif

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Originally Posted by Cathathome

So there's hope for me yet? http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/sha...icons/razz.gif

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LOL

Shooting solely in manual mode, the ability to get instant feedback on setting changes with digital was a big help for me.

I have probably 4-5 times as much film gear as I do digital. And that's a lot! Never stopped using film but it has declined tremendously in quantity.

There's the $100 Film Project which is posted in the Film Photograph Forum which is my way of encouraging people to get out and use their film burners! Shoot a photo or two a day just to keep your skills.

There's a continuing belief that if you don't want to lose it, use it and how that applies to film.

The sad part is that there's really nothing you can't do with digital now quicker than with film.

Printing is another topic. The part I want to see continue is the printing process. Silver prints well made and displayed are just magical.

Interesting topic -
While I still have fond memories of my AE-1P, (which I still have), along with all the gear + albums of 4x6, 5x7, 8x10 B&W and colour pics. It was a lot of fun, in addition to being a learning experience, but I doubt that I will ever go back to film - the convenience and instant gratification of digital, combined with aquiring new skills and knowledge of DSLRs,
is quite sufficient for now ! :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Xia_Ke

...For me, I just love the whole process of it. I like taking my time when I shoot now and driving home with the anticipation of what will come out of the developer. I love sitting in the darkroom huffing fixer and stop bath...

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I miss those times.

Because I also made all my enlargements, I also miss printing the color test sheets, then printing the color exposure test sheets, and then lastly the final print - waiting to pull the paper out from the drum agitator to see the completed work over an hour after I had started.

Interestingly, the big part holding me back is printing the color test sheets, then printing the color exposure test sheets, and then lastly the final print - waiting to pull the paper out from the drum agitator to see the completed work over an hour after I had started. :)

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Originally Posted by Loupey

I miss those times.

Because I also made all my enlargements, I also miss printing the color test sheets, then printing the color exposure test sheets, and then lastly the final print - waiting to pull the paper out from the drum agitator to see the completed work over an hour after I had started.

Interestingly, the big part holding me back is printing the color test sheets, then printing the color exposure test sheets, and then lastly the final print - waiting to pull the paper out from the drum agitator to see the completed work over an hour after I had started. :)

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Still have yet to start dabbling much in color film. Soon enough though, soon enough, just ordered a box of Provia 100F and a box of Velvia 50 :thumbsup:

This weekend has been typical.

On Friday night I was walking back to the car and I saw two scenes that I would have considered interesting as landscapes in black-and-white on the Hasselblad. Just winter shapes, trees, a path, something I could make an interesting design out of with the square format, that would come out nicely on film. It's the sort of thing I don't do in digital, the frame is rectangular and the camera somehow treats it all so seriously. Difficult to explain.

This morning I went round an indoor show with the D300 set at 3200 ISO the whole time. Usually I set auto-ISO and the camera adjusts from 400ISO up to 3200ISO without me noticing. Made a quick print of the results and I was aghast. 3200 ISO looks just like 100ISO 24x36 film. No noise/grain. Blast. That is usually a feature of my available-light black and white

I've still got my F4 and F801, used in the past the F4 for colour and the 801 for B&W, can't and don't want to let them go, great cameras. Trouble is I like what I can do with the digital and post processing and yes Charles I finally got the D3, the price was too good to pass up, less than US equiv. 4K out of Geneva, Switzerland. Most likely I'd go back to film just to do B&W and process myself as I did in the good old days. S

I've still got a F100, F80, F75, Leica M4P, Konica Hexar RF, Minolta CLE and a Hasselblad 500 C/M. I don't use the bodies but the Nikon lenses carry on their career on digital (the best ones, anyway).

One day - when I have a lot more time - I will get back to using film for a change. Use Tri-X on the Leica. Right now I am struggling with Paint Shop Pro on 70 photos of one of the most beautiful women in France. I have to do her justice. The things I'm doing in the digital darkroom go far beyond what I ever attempted in the optical one.

Saw you got the 24-70 f2.8 as well. Now I would be excited about that one.

Hey Loupey,

I still use film for astrophotography work. So far, it beats digital, hands down. I have about 30 rolls of Superia Xtra 400 and about 10 rolls of slides (mostly Sensia 100) that were (and still are) my astrophotography mainstays.

Astrophotograpy is also why I've hung on to my K1000.

Film RULES! Enough said... :biggrin5:
I find it interesting to see that as I post, the category that has the most votes is the Thinking about using it again, haven’t got back into it.
I think people are getting tired of the constant upgrades and all that..
Just my humble opinion.
Brian

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Originally Posted by mtbbrian

...the category that has the most votes is the Thinking about using it again, haven’t got back into it. I think people are getting tired of the constant upgrades and all that..
Just my humble opinion.
Brian

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Not far wrong, I'm one of those. For me it's about the post processing seems to me like cheating, I only went digital last year and although I love it film seems more real to me, you need to be near spot on on the first take and it requires a depth of skill and understanding of all facets of photography with no immediate second chance. Digital is very forgiving when it comes to skill requirement, though the ability to take and re-take shots helps improve skill as well? Also just an opinion...

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Originally Posted by shootme

Not far wrong, I'm one of those. For me it's about the post processing seems to me like cheating, I only went digital last year and although I love it film seems more real to me, you need to be near spot on on the first take and it requires a depth of skill and understanding of all facets of photography with no immediate second chance. Digital is very forgiving when it comes to skill requirement, though the ability to take and re-take shots helps improve skill as well? Also just an opinion...

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I have always thought there'd be some kind of film renaissance, I also think that photographers, collectors, etc, will have an appreciation for the craft aspect of "traditionally made" prints.
I just don't think that film will "die" as many have predicted. Yes, film and traditional paper sources are shrinking, but I just don't see that the supplies and manufacturing of it will end in my lifetime.
Again, just the ramblings of a film loving photographer!:D :rolleyes: :p
Brian

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Originally Posted by mtbbrian

....I find it interesting to see that as I post, the category that has the most votes is the Thinking about using it again, haven’t got back into it.....

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That is an excellent point, Brian.

HEY PEOPLE! If you're thinking about trying film, what are you waiting for?!

Go buy a 5 pack of Fuji Superia 200 or 400 for $11.49. Dust off your old camera and go for a walk. You might just decide you like it and instead of getting the itch to upgrade your DSLR in a few months or a year, you might find yourself buying a $30 lens and getting just as excited about it. Wouldn't that be refreshing? You can shoot a lot of film for the price of a DSLR....a LOT of film

If you want recommendations for a cheap film camera, come to the film forum and ask. I bet every active person on that forum can list several cameras that you can buy for less than the cost of that nifty-fifty, the benchmark of all that is cheap.

Paul

Canonet ($25):
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/4...4e1a887eb5.jpg

Minolta X-370 ($30) with 45mm f/2 Rokkor ($10):
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3029/...a7326487f1.jpg

You can always get a Holga too, from $20 - $30, and Tri-X 120 costs about $4.50 a roll.
And the Thinking about using it again, haven’t got back into it. vote is still leading, so go on and pull out your film cameras!
:thumbsup:
Brian

For whatever reason I seriously consider it about once a year, with always the same conclusion - I'm a digital guy. My own reasoning behind it (which may or may not be valid with anyone else) is that film has these advantages (I'll call it that):

--Less time in front of a computer. Probably enough said, except spotting dust out of scan is a huge exception (digital ICE doesn't work with silver B&W).

--More effort put into making the shot. This includes carefully metering and considering DOF, etc to get it right. With a DSLR I'll shoot knowing I'm close, review and maybe make an adjustment. This doesn't really seem like a satisfying process - kind of thoughtless. Sure, I could shoot digital the same way but for some reason I just don't. Technically, it's a lot easier for me to get a good shot on a DSLR than it was on film - with Velvia, you either got it or you didn't.

--Less emphasis on equipment. Well, not really, but I wouldn't feel like a ten year old large format is any more obselete than a new one. I wouldn't have to learn new software, which isn't really something I enjoy.

--It's just something different. Some times things are fun to do because they're (relatively)unusual.

But, like I said I don't see doing anything with film. I know what it's like to spot dust out of a scan. Finding time to do everything is difficult (for everybody). DSLR's are also very flexible cameras for shooting in different situations, and it'd be tough to give that up too.

For me, I do photography mostly to get away from the other stressful sides of my life (law school, work, etc). I do some jobs, and for all of those I use digital. But for the rest of things, I'm shooting for my own enjoyment and for the purpose of getting away and slowing down. So manual film cameras fit that bill perfectly.

I started in digital with the XTi about a year ago, and very quickly realized that film and digital produced different results. Especially to the discriminating eye, film and digital simply cannot replicate each other in certain situations. For example, the richness of Velvia has a different look than digital, and of course true B&W film has a texture to it that digital has yet to readily replicate.

But for me it's really the experience of using a manual camera. The Ricohflex TLR is by far my favorite. There's simply nothing like framing on a 2 1/4 x 2 1/4" screen. And although I use the Zeiss very rarely, the feeling of using an 80 year old camera is just cool. And the Nikkormat provides an easy way to shoot B&W 35mm - in fact I just shot a whole role of it yesterday, in combination with my off camera flash setup. That should prove to be an interesting combination.

Anyway, I follow film cameras pretty closely on eBay just for the heck of it. I can tell you for certain, Medium Format and Large Format show no signs of slowing down at all. If anything, I'd say MF prices have actually gone up in the past couple months. I think there is *plenty* of interest left out there. It certainly is a smaller market, but it will be many, many years before it is gone.

Back in the days before digital, life was easy - I used to shut myself away in the darkroom every weekend for 3 months in the depths of winter and bring out my prints from the years negatives. Of course I used to feel like I was a hermit and I hated the smell of fixer on my hands but it was fairly simple. Get expose and contrast more or less right, do some dodging and burning but that was about it. It was straight photography in black-and-white mostly, telling a story.

Nowadays it seems like all the photographers around here (Paris) are Photoshop kings. You don't just do a straight picture of a model any more. You have to retouch it. In some cases the whole picture is an assembly, a scene that never happened in real life.

I don't go that far (yet) but I did just spend one week on a single picture of my latest model. Apart from the exposure and contrast adjustment and some burning I changed her red bra to almost black, eliminated blemishes on her skin, smoothed her skin completely, added grain so her skin looks solid, lightened the whites of her eyes to give her a more piercing gaze...

Umm. Hold on. (Pause to look at the print I left on the floor last night)

Still not happy with it. I have to put more life into her hair. Tonight. It's 6.30am and I have to go off to my real work..

Occasionally was my answer, not for anything special though.
Last fall I shot 2 rolls of film,enjoyed it.Roll 1 was mainly to just to go out and use my old stuff and see what I could get with it?Roll 2 was used in a canon 1V film camera my Bro. sent to me.I liked being able to use my 17mm lens at 17mm.Currently I have 2 rolls of fuji superia to go in the voightlander I picked up last month( The new owner is chicken to shoot with it with out a meter).
Jimmy B

IMHO, film is on its way out. At some point the major producers, Fuji, Kodak, etc., are going to figure out that they are not making any money from film and they will stop making it(?). Not sure when that will happen, but it will happen (my prediction). I mean, we all know that if you can't make a profit from a product, you stop making it.

WesternGuy