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  1. #1
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    My hockey progression

    When I started taking pictures I shot in Aperture prioity and used as fast a shutter speed as I could, saved in jpeg large format and auto fixed them in PS. Since then I went to Raw, manual and adjusted the photos in the Canon Pro something program that came with the camera. I went from a 400 speed setting to 800 to try and speed things up and eliminate some of the blurry pics.

    The Goal: Non-blurry, Non-Noisey, pics. I am reverting back to my original setup, and will use a monopod at a bright rink this weekend. I will post up a few before and after PS shot for any help you may be willing to offer.

    Three shots from that rink to compare this weeks results to.




    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails My hockey progression-huskiesseating-013web.jpg   My hockey progression-huskiesseating-030web.jpg   My hockey progression-huskiesseating-131web.jpg  

  2. #2
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Thought maybe I should show a couple of my other sons football pics. I feel as though I get much better results outside. Your thoughts?


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails My hockey progression-fbweb1.jpg   My hockey progression-img_0649web.jpg  

  3. #3
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Monopods are too restricting, proper technique holding the camera is better than any tripod.
    Obviously if you have good lighting such as the outdoor shots you will have better results, however with hocky you have the wotlds biggest and best white card for setting your WB.
    The best wat to get great results is using strobes, but thats not always affordable or possible either. Shooting down will give you more light at the expense of faces in many cases.

    JS

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  4. #4
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    Re: My hockey progression

    You know I tried that and it did seem to help. Just to make sure I have it straight. Use the custom white balance setting and set it to an all white area of the Ice. I will incorporate that into this weekends pics. I now know how climbers feel standing at the base of Everest. Very similar to the learning curve I have in front of me. Your input is always welcome and appreciated.

  5. #5
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldin Sloe
    You know I tried that and it did seem to help. Just to make sure I have it straight. Use the custom white balance setting and set it to an all white area of the Ice. I will incorporate that into this weekends pics. I now know how climbers feel standing at the base of Everest. Very similar to the learning curve I have in front of me. Your input is always welcome and appreciated.

    Yup, you got it! :thumbsup: And your very welcome

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  6. #6
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    Re: My hockey progression

    We ended up on the rink that did not have the bright white lighting, but more of the usual grey. I tried to set a custom white balance, but test pics showed up very blue colored. Auto was closer to the white. I shot in Tv (?) where I set the shutter speed and 400 which put me at 1/200 or 1/250 depending on the number of dark jerseys in the shot. With Canon Pro in raw I don't seem to get the shot back to a white color. The second of these was done with auto levels in PS. Is it going too far? It really turns everything to a nice bright white, which was not how the eye sees the rink. I have also noticed I seem to frame the subject to high, or too much fore ground. I will work on that. If I could shoot at 800 and not get the noise I think I would be better off. I also had the camera set to over-expose 1 step to help with the noise. I also encounted my usual amount of miss focused shots I am going to blame on my 20D. I will recieve my 1D this week and hope this helps my efforts.
    Thanks for reading the rambling.



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails My hockey progression-huskiesreg1019web.jpg   My hockey progression-hustiesreg1st0003web.jpg  

  7. #7
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    Re: My hockey progression

    I'd say the second is OK, but my monitor may view it differently due the calibration on it. Which 1D did you get? You will notice right away some major differences, weight, and more importantly AF speed, especially with L Lenses like 70-200 f2,8. You should also get better WB control, although I admit the older 1D is tricky to get the WB in some lighting, the trick id to learn how the WB settings work and tofor any camera remember blue is cold and red is hot and to adjust accordingly. So if you get too much blue then go warmer. I think, off hand when I shot hockey at the Pepsi Colesium I was around 3300 or 3900. The photos worked as they wound up in a book. I think they had the old sodium lights in there.
    I see you did overexpose by 1 step, good! Thats normal for most Canons, even the 1D. You may find that using the 1D you can shoot through the glass as well, give it a try if they let you. You lose 1-2 stops but it's OK, you can get it back later in PP.
    One note on the original 1D - always have an extra battery! Those versions eat batteries and it may run an hour and a half. Set the camera to automaticaly shut off in 1 minute to help save the battery and use AF sparingly. Also, on AF, set the AF to the " * " not the shutter button. It takes getting used to but it gives you more control of the AF as you can start and stop it as you need to. The MKII N version you don't have to worry about the battery so much, I have shot four or five complete basketball games with one charge!

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  8. #8
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    Re: My hockey progression

    I purchased the MK III, and hope I don't get one with the focus issues. The higher the color # the more red and the lower the more blue? Do you then use the K for color in the WB setting, or will it also effect AWB? If you shoot in full manual and set ap at 2.8 you then use the wheel to adjust your shutter speed on the fly? As uneven as the lighting in most rinks is, you need a 2 speed adjustment from brighter spots to darker spots, no wonder there are not more pros!!! I also hope I can shoot at 800 and not get the noise the 20D has, I find my photos unexceptable at this setting. This Saturday we are at home, and I can shoot from the penalty box at ice level, with no glass. This has given me my best results in the past, other than the lighting in the rink is REALLY bad.

    Let the progression continue
    Rob

  9. #9
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Ok, well you jumped right in didn't you Umm, with the MKIII you could shoot at 1600 and not have bad noise so that won't be an issue. I will say that you need to get out of the "modes" and start using manual! You can still quickly change your f stop so thats not a problem, keep ISO and shutter speed and use the f-stop to adjust for lighting changes.

    Now with the MKIII you will have added benefit of not only the WB setting and temperature (ie: K) but also being able to adjust the color temps as well. While waiting for the new camera grab a manual off the web and start reading, it's a huge jump up from the 20D! You WILL be overwhelmed for a while, but I suggest just going outside and trying all the different settings and learn how they affect things. That will also help you learn where the controls are.so when you go shoot a game you have a close idea whats where.

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  10. #10
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Ok I have logged that info into the unnivac (brain). I still refer to my paper manual on the
    20D so it will be a bit of a dissadvantage not having that. I will just take notes on what I want to work on till I have things committed to memory. Sounds like with the increased ISO, the right combination of color, WB, shutter and f-stop setting this should be a walk in the park. I will check back post holiday with my results.

    As always thanks again.
    Rob

  11. #11
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    Re: My hockey progression

    No problem Rob.

    One thing I would suggest is getting a small notebook you can keep with you that you keep your settings in for various locations. I have one and it has the settings for each school I shoot at and if I go from to another I just look up the settings for that schools gym, football field or whereever I'm shooting at there. Another adbantage is that at a new school I can use a starting setting from another with similar lighting.... it makes life a whole lot easier! I normally know ahead of time where I will be so I just set the camera up before I leave home for the fist job of the day. It really helped the one I had 7 jobs at 7 schools in 2 1/2 hours! Talk about flying around

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  12. #12
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    Re: My hockey progression

    This is from the first time out with the new 1D. I started in M and an ISO of 800 ended with the ISO at 1600 that moved my shutter speed up, let me go overexposed between on and 1 step up. Also let me adjust the F-stop with my thumb for the big difference in lighting, and not being on the edge at 2.8. Keep in mind this rink sucks, no 2 ways about it.

    Ok I am doing something wrong, the photos are below.

    I chose this one first to try and give an idea of the difference in lighting through out the rink.


    This one was earlier on and shows my inability to adjust the f stop on the fly. That will take some work.


    This one was later, I like the exposure better, but would like to freeze the stick. Of course maybe the blur makes it look a little more artsy fartsy.


    This one was later in the game too. And one of the best.




    A quick overview I would say a huge improvement over the 20D. DUH. Some missfocused pics, but tough with the home white jerseys. Big room for improvement, as I am not at the "limits" of the camera.......by any means. Lots of new things to try and I am looking forward to the next game.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails My hockey progression-midleton1047web.jpg   My hockey progression-midleton1023web.jpg   My hockey progression-midleton1076web.jpg   My hockey progression-midleton1101web.jpg  
    Last edited by Oldin Sloe; 11-27-2007 at 08:29 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Hey Rob,

    Yeah Rob, there is a learning curve, from the camera body weight through all the available settings. The first thing is, are you using the 70-200 USM IS lens? If so I will give some starting points as to the custom function and personal function settings, these may help the focus issues. Also, are you using the shutter button or the * for focus? If using the shutter button that may be part of the problem as it is continually focusing. With the * it only changes focus when you push the button.
    More after I hear from you.

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  14. #14
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Yes my lense is a 70-200 2.8 NON IS. I had recalled from your earlier post to focus with the "*". This is something I plan to incorporate as time progresses.For now my brain was in overload. In the M mode I also notice the focus points do not light up. To me this could possibly help if your subject was not dead center.Of course it would just be confirming your subject was not in focus. Backing off of the full open 2.8 should also add a deeper field of focus, correct? I am just happy that for now I can take better pictures. The last one will be on my office wall by the end of the week. The curve continues. One thing I am also looking forward to is getting to a rink with real glass, not plexi, and shooting from some different angles.

  15. #15
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    Re: My hockey progression

    If your AF point isn't on it is probably turned off in the Menu, scroll through the menu pages (second from left) unitl you see Display AF Points 3rd from bottom, select it and set it to ON.

    More after I eat. I have a chicken calling my name...or the dog will get before me

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  16. #16
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Here was the advice from my mentor when I asked him the same exact question you have asked:

    If you shoot hockey with available light you need to 1) use a custom white balance; 2) shoot in manual mode; and 3) use an IS lens. To determine your manual settings you need to either walk on the ice and meter it with a handheld meter or just take a few shots and examine the camera’s histogram until the distribution curve just barely touches the left and right axis. For the custom white balance you either have to have an ExpoDisc(expensive) or a grey card (cheap), then walk onto the ice and take a reading per your camera’s instructions. Alternatively, you can just get strobes strong enough to get you 3-4 stops above the ambient light then you can just set the white balance to flash or 5500 kelvin.


    I am going to hi-jack your thread and show my first shot at hockey --

    Name:  Chatham3.jpg
Views: 87
Size:  106.5 KB

    My hockey progression-chatham1.jpg

    My hockey progression-chatham2.jpg
    Last edited by VinnyC01; 11-30-2007 at 07:53 PM.
    Canon 40D
    Canon Rebel XTi 400D 10.1

    Canon EF 300/4L IS
    Canon EF 70-200/4L
    Canon 85mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 85/1.8
    Canon 50/1.4

    Sigma 70-200/2.8

    Tamron 1.4x Teleconverter

    www.MCHSS.com
    www.ELLEandMAX.com

  17. #17
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    Re: My hockey progression

    1st picture

    [Image]
    Make = Canon
    Model = Canon EOS 40D
    Orientation = top/left
    X Resolution = 72
    Y Resolution = 72
    Resolution Unit = inch
    Software = Adobe Photoshop CS3 Windows
    Date Time = 2007-11-30 21:50:49
    White Point = [313/1000, 329/1000]
    Primary Chromaticities = [64/100, 33/100, 21/100, 71/100, 15/100, 6/100]
    YCbCr Coefficients = 299/1000, 587/1000, 114/1000
    YCbCr Positioning = co-sited
    Exif IFD Pointer = Offset: 356
    GPS Info IFD Pointer = Offset: 1144

    [Camera]
    Exposure Time = 1/320"
    F Number = F2.8
    Exposure Program = Aperture priority
    ISO Speed Ratings = 1600
    Exif Version = Version 2.21
    Date Time Original = 2007-11-28 09:00:55
    Date Time Digitized = 2007-11-28 09:00:55
    Components Configuration = YCbcr
    Shutter Speed Value = 8.38 TV
    Aperture Value = 3 AV
    Exposure Bias Value = +0.67EV
    Metering Mode = Pattern
    Flash = Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
    Focal Length = 93mm
    User Comment =
    Subsec Time = 0.78"
    Subsec Time Original = 0.78"
    Subsec Time Digitized = 0.78"
    Flashpix Version = Version 1.0
    Color Space = Uncalibrated
    Exif Image Width = 432
    Exif Image Height = 288
    Interoperability IFD Pointer = Offset: 1112
    Focal Plane X Resolution = 4438.356
    Focal Plane Y Resolution = 4445.969
    Focal Plane Resolution Unit = inch
    Custom Rendered = Normal process
    Exposure Mode = Auto exposure
    White Balance = Auto white balance
    Scene Capture Type = Normal
    Gamma = 2.2

    [GPS]
    GPS Version ID = Version 2.2

    [Interoperability]
    Interoperability Index = R03
    Interoperability Version = Version 1.0

    [Thumbnail Info]
    Compression = JPEG Compressed (Thumbnail)
    X Resolution = 72
    Y Resolution = 72
    Resolution Unit = inch
    JPEG Interchange Format = Offset: 1258
    JPEG Interchange Format Length = Length: 4686

    [Thumbnail]
    Thumbnail = 160 x 107
    Canon 40D
    Canon Rebel XTi 400D 10.1

    Canon EF 300/4L IS
    Canon EF 70-200/4L
    Canon 85mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 85/1.8
    Canon 50/1.4

    Sigma 70-200/2.8

    Tamron 1.4x Teleconverter

    www.MCHSS.com
    www.ELLEandMAX.com

  18. #18
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Sorry, I only know how to use photoshop and I have no idea how to save for web so it is exactly the right size

    2nd Picture

    [Image]
    Make = Canon
    Model = Canon EOS 40D
    Orientation = top/left
    X Resolution = 72
    Y Resolution = 72
    Resolution Unit = inch
    Software = Adobe Photoshop CS3 Windows
    Date Time = 2007-11-30 21:50:49
    White Point = [313/1000, 329/1000]
    Primary Chromaticities = [64/100, 33/100, 21/100, 71/100, 15/100, 6/100]
    YCbCr Coefficients = 299/1000, 587/1000, 114/1000
    YCbCr Positioning = co-sited
    Exif IFD Pointer = Offset: 356
    GPS Info IFD Pointer = Offset: 1144

    [Camera]
    Exposure Time = 1/320"
    F Number = F2.8
    Exposure Program = Aperture priority
    ISO Speed Ratings = 1600
    Exif Version = Version 2.21
    Date Time Original = 2007-11-28 09:00:55
    Date Time Digitized = 2007-11-28 09:00:55
    Components Configuration = YCbcr
    Shutter Speed Value = 8.38 TV
    Aperture Value = 3 AV
    Exposure Bias Value = +0.67EV
    Metering Mode = Pattern
    Flash = Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
    Focal Length = 93mm
    User Comment =
    Subsec Time = 0.78"
    Subsec Time Original = 0.78"
    Subsec Time Digitized = 0.78"
    Flashpix Version = Version 1.0
    Color Space = Uncalibrated
    Exif Image Width = 432
    Exif Image Height = 288
    Interoperability IFD Pointer = Offset: 1112
    Focal Plane X Resolution = 4438.356
    Focal Plane Y Resolution = 4445.969
    Focal Plane Resolution Unit = inch
    Custom Rendered = Normal process
    Exposure Mode = Auto exposure
    White Balance = Auto white balance
    Scene Capture Type = Normal
    Gamma = 2.2

    [GPS]
    GPS Version ID = Version 2.2

    [Interoperability]
    Interoperability Index = R03
    Interoperability Version = Version 1.0

    [Thumbnail Info]
    Compression = JPEG Compressed (Thumbnail)
    X Resolution = 72
    Y Resolution = 72
    Resolution Unit = inch
    JPEG Interchange Format = Offset: 1258
    JPEG Interchange Format Length = Length: 4686

    [Thumbnail]
    Thumbnail = 160 x 107
    Canon 40D
    Canon Rebel XTi 400D 10.1

    Canon EF 300/4L IS
    Canon EF 70-200/4L
    Canon 85mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 85/1.8
    Canon 50/1.4

    Sigma 70-200/2.8

    Tamron 1.4x Teleconverter

    www.MCHSS.com
    www.ELLEandMAX.com

  19. #19
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Is this right? shouldn't it be A HIGHER x & Y res? Like 240 or 300??


    X Resolution = 72
    Y Resolution = 72
    Resolution Unit = inch
    Canon 40D
    Canon Rebel XTi 400D 10.1

    Canon EF 300/4L IS
    Canon EF 70-200/4L
    Canon 85mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 85/1.8
    Canon 50/1.4

    Sigma 70-200/2.8

    Tamron 1.4x Teleconverter

    www.MCHSS.com
    www.ELLEandMAX.com

  20. #20
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    Re: My hockey progression

    In the FILE column select SAVE FOR WEB then change the long side to 640 and then select the resolution or use the slider to get the file size under 244KB

    As for seting your WB, you don't need anything at an ice rink except your camera and the ice, it's the biggest white card you could ever want, set it off the ice from where your shooting from, if you move reset it from the new location.

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  21. #21
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Thank you again. That is a big help. I will experiment again tomorrow. Too bad it's opening day and a quadruple header! I am only shooting the two middle games.

    Here's my try:

    My hockey progression-_mg_1168.jpg

    Wow !! It worked, CS3 is a little different than my books explain and your explanation helped a lot. I feel sooo dumb!
    Canon 40D
    Canon Rebel XTi 400D 10.1

    Canon EF 300/4L IS
    Canon EF 70-200/4L
    Canon 85mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 85/1.8
    Canon 50/1.4

    Sigma 70-200/2.8

    Tamron 1.4x Teleconverter

    www.MCHSS.com
    www.ELLEandMAX.com

  22. #22
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    Re: My hockey progression

    No problem, glad it helped I normaly use Photoshop Elements, you can do pretty much the same stuff and it costs a whole lot less. Not as many options, but similar enough.Glad it's working, thats much easier to see!

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

  23. #23
    Junior Member Oldin Sloe's Avatar
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    Re: My hockey progression

    Hi everybody, I would like some input on a couple of shots from the weekend. The first one is from our dark rink. It appears very close to what my eye sees when looking at the ice. My questions are: Should I "fix" this, bring the levels up to a bright white, or leave it more as the eye can see. I don't want to wash out the colors. Should this be cropped? If so fell free to give me some examples. I have not done much of this because I have been busy trying to just the the exposure right.

    This one was in much better lighting. Did I go too far on the overexposure? Would it not make a better pic if the subject was not centered and you got more of the goalie in the frame? Of course that represents more of a focus challenge as I have yet to develop the skills for manual focus.



    I feel I am getting better results, but still have a long way to go.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails My hockey progression-huskieregs20033.jpg   My hockey progression-falconscs0087.jpg  
    Last edited by Oldin Sloe; 12-12-2007 at 12:01 PM.

  24. #24
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    Re: My hockey progression

    The realistic lighting may be OK for most, but if it were in a publication of some sort it would need "fixed".
    As for the second, I can't help you as the page says you need to register to view pictures and I don't register at unknown places like that to view photos here. You can resize and upload them here with your posts, scroll down below the submit button and you will see how to add photos to your posts, max 640 on tyhe long side and max file size of 244.1kb. You can set them up for here in Photoshop Elements using SAVE for WEB under Files.

    One thing you can do to try and get less wasted space and zoom in more is to shoot verticle if you have just one or two players

    JS
    Canon 1D
    Canon 1D MK II N
    Canon 70-200mm USM IS f2.8
    Canon 200mm f1.8 USM
    Canon 300mm f2.8 USM IS
    Canon 28-300mm USM IS f3.5-5.6
    Canon 50mm f1.8
    Vivitar 19-35mm f3.5-5.6

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