More 'hints' from Sony...

Sony - Hong Kong is showing a service manual for the A850. Appears to be the same as the A900 except only 3fps and only 98% viewfinder. Full frame for <$2k??? - TF

What is the point of that? They could have reduced the price of the A900 ... and not done a thing! Machine for a whole new camera??? C'mon!

A cheap, no-fluff full frame? Sounds like a portrait/landscape/commercial (and anyone else who sees an advantage in the 25 maga-pixels) dream. Most makers are adding 'features' to cropped sensors for thair $2k bodies. Sony is giving us an alternative.

All of this is, of course, assumes that the 'hints' amd rumors are true.

TF

I suppose I need to appreciate how slowing down the fps is some kind of cost reduction. If there was one aspect that could use an improvement ... it would be serious sports capability. Get that A900 up to 10 fps for "finish line", "back flip" and "touchdown" capture and make me a believer. Just popping out a slightly cheaper FF seems ... well ... (fill in the blank) and we get a beer with the President.

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Originally Posted by DonSchap

I suppose I need to appreciate how slowing down the fps is some kind of cost reduction. If there was one aspect that could use an improvement ... it would be serious sports capability. Get that A900 up to 10 fps for "finish line", "back flip" and "touchdown" capture and make me a believer. Just popping out a slightly cheaper FF seems ... well ... (fill in the blank) and we get a beer with the President.

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Speculation is that they slowed the fps as a result of removing one of the two 'Bionz' processing circuits. Considerably cheaper.

The niche pro or moneyed amateur sports market may be disappointed by this, but I see the millions of first or second time DSLR purchasers gobbling up FF at $2k.

I am exited about the way Sony seems to be going with DSLR. Avoiding things like video, high ISO and fps and just making a usable camera for taking beautiful photographs.

TF

After struggling with NOISE issues in the A700 ... and seeing similar things in the A900, I would like SONY to improve the noise processor system. I would pay extra for this type of improvement ... but, we still are not seeing it. I figure this is an important aspect to photography, especially DIGITAL photography, because your camera is your FILM, but unlike film, you cannot just change that out.

Having a bigger, noisier looking image is nothing I'm that interested in.

Noise performance on the A700 and A900 are pretty damned good actually. Are you talking the old cooked raw 1600 ISO+ A700 problem?

Anyway - this confirms what I've already heard elsewhere, its also supposedly not quite as rugged build as the A900....

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Originally Posted by OldClicker

Sony - Hong Kong is showing a service manual for the A850. Appears to be the same as the A900 except only 3fps and only 98% viewfinder. Full frame for <$2k??? - TF

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No SONY "DT" lenses (TAMRON Di-II or SIGMA DC) ... it has no CROP MODE like the A900, so it will vignette APS-C sensor designed lenses.

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Originally Posted by DonSchap

No SONY "DT" lenses (TAMRON Di-II or SIGMA DC) ... it has no CROP MODE like the A900, so it will vignette APS-C sensor designed lenses.

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Same as A900 (pg 104 of the 850 manual). Besides, does it really matter whether it's cropped in the camera or in post processing? (Actually PP would give more options.)

You seem to be looking very hard for a reason not to like a body that hasn't even been released yet????

TF

Just food for thought ... seeings that we can only imagine it all, at this point.

yeah but thats actually a good thing, you can still get the entire image circle, and it will only vignette badly at the wider angles of zooms.

Honestly I think thats better then having a 'crop mode'

A full frame camera under $ 1800 !!!

Noise? of course there's going to be noise, what do you expect at ISO 1600 ??? never used film? I wonder if people really know how to use their cameras.

I been sitting here, wondering ... THIS "change" is what took six months to produce (since PMA 09 - March 2009 - they could have just silk-screened a "α850" label on a α900 body and put it in the glass box at the show - something - anything!)? A cut down α900? No new production line, just some guy with a soldering gun modifying a circuit board? Guys, guys ... c'mon ... there has to be something else missing.

It has me asking ... "Why the wait?" It's just an α900 Version → ½ :mad2:

Attachment 70942

OR BETTER YET ...

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Why can't Sony put live view in the viewfinder? Are there any cameras out there with Live View in the viewfinder? IIRC, Olympus allows the live view to work on the LCD without disabling the viewfinder, but that's not what I want. I want Live View to work in real time in the viewfinder when I shoot, so I don't have to switch back and forth to the LCD to get a preview. I never use the LCD, its almost worthless to me. Since I mostly shoot outdoors in sunny fast action sports events, there is usually to much glare and not enough time to fiddle with it. I need Live View in the viewfinder. There much be a way to do this, from an engineering standpoint?

BBR

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Originally Posted by BBRoberts

Why can't Sony put live view in the viewfinder? Are there any cameras out there with Live View in the viewfinder? IIRC, Olympus allows the live view to work on the LCD without disabling the viewfinder, but that's not what I want. I want Live View to work in real time in the viewfinder when I shoot, so I don't have to switch back and forth to the LCD to get a preview. I never use the LCD, its almost worthless to me. Since I mostly shoot outdoors in sunny fast action sports events, there is usually to much glare and not enough time to fiddle with it. I need Live View in the viewfinder. There much be a way to do this, from an engineering standpoint?

BBR

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Don't understand. You just mean an electronic view finder rather than optical? - TF

I don't really care, as long as what I am seeing is reasonable. What I see through the Viewfinder is what I want my photos to look like, its that simple to me. Why can't they incorporate live view in such a way that allows you to make adjustments to setting based on what I see through the viewfinder? It must be possible to do this in time, I would think. LCD to me is a joke, and others have said Live View is also worthless to them as well on Sony.

BBR

I don't really care, as long as what I am seeing is reasonable. What I see through the Viewfinder is what I want my photos to look like, its that simple to me. Why can't they incorporate live view in such a way that allows you to make adjustments to setting based on what I see through the viewfinder? It must be possible to do this in time, I would think. LCD to me is a joke, and others have said Live View is also worthless to them as well on Sony.

BBR

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Originally Posted by BBRoberts

I don't really care, as long as what I am seeing is reasonable. What I see through the Viewfinder is what I want my photos to look like, its that simple to me. Why can't they incorporate live view in such a way that allows you to make adjustments to setting based on what I see through the viewfinder? It must be possible to do this in time, I would think. LCD to me is a joke, and others have said Live View is also worthless to them as well on Sony.

BBR

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First, that's NOT what most want from a viewfinder.

I'm not familiar with point-&-shoot cameras with EVFs. There probably are some where the EVF shows the same thing as the LCD???? Try asking this question in the Digital Cameras - General forum.

How about this as a solution:

http://hoodmanusa.com/products.asp?dept=1017

You can strap it right on to the back of the LCD and use it like a view finder.

http://hoodmanusa.com/prodinfo.asp?number=H%2DLPP3CS

TF

This is what Olympus did with the 330, but if I am reading this correctly, it doesn't mean Live View is incorporated into the viewfinder. I believe what they are doing/saying is that the LCD Live View works at the same time without switching, but seperately. If that's the case, to me, that's half a fix. Better then Sony, but still inadequate in what I want.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/

On the H9 for instance, all the setting can be brought up in the viewfinder including grids, Histogram, etc. My point is with the H9, you use the Historgram to judge your settings, but no live view. After you bring up a photo on the LCD, you can judge what the effects are, but that's a non starter in todays bleeding edge. I pretty sure, a lot of people would like Live View in the viewfinder if its incorporated well. For those who use the viewfinder the most, who wouldn't want to adjust their setting all in one place, without having to switch back and forth to the LCD.

During sunny outdoor days with action sports, the LCD has always been a joke to me. I can hardly see anything with all the glare. I don't even try, but the viewfinder is my salvation. I wouldn't buy a camera that only has an LCD display. If live view was incorporated into the viewfinder, then kind of like WYSIWYG, which saves time and effort.

When the sun goes in and out of the clouds, then live view would tip you off through the viewfinder instead of using that uselss LCD. I don't even like having that thing sticking out. Probably get whacked on something.

I suppose Sony always has new irons in the fire.

BBR

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Originally Posted by BBRoberts

This is what Olympus did with the 330, but if I am reading this correctly, it doesn't mean Live View is incorporated into the viewfinder. I believe what they are doing/saying is that the LCD Live View works at the same time without switching, but seperately. If that's the case, to me, that's half a fix. Better then Sony, but still inadequate in what I want.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/

On the H9 for instance, all the setting can be brought up in the viewfinder including grids, Histogram, etc. My point is with the H9, you use the Historgram to judge your settings, but no live view. After you bring up a photo on the LCD, you can judge what the effects are, but that's a non starter in todays bleeding edge. I pretty sure, a lot of people would like Live View in the viewfinder if its incorporated well. For those who use the viewfinder the most, who wouldn't want to adjust their setting all in one place, without having to switch back and forth to the LCD.

During sunny outdoor days with action sports, the LCD has always been a joke to me. I can hardly see anything with all the glare. I don't even try, but the viewfinder is my salvation. I wouldn't buy a camera that only has an LCD display. If live view was incorporated into the viewfinder, then kind of like WYSIWYG, which saves time and effort.

When the sun goes in and out of the clouds, then live view would tip you off through the viewfinder instead of using that uselss LCD. I don't even like having that thing sticking out. Probably get whacked on something.

I suppose Sony always has new irons in the fire.

BBR

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The hoodloupe sounds like exactly the functionality you are looking for. $80 and your in. - TF

Optical viewfinders wipe the floor with any electronic one. Its maid that way for most semi and pro cameras because the photographer usually knows what he or she is going to get with out any electronic aid. Plus it feel's abit more traditional. Than theres photoshop to do the rest of the tweaking.

But your idea on those grids would be awesome. It would just be a overlay thing.

"A full frame camera under $ 1800 !!!

Noise? of course there's going to be noise, what do you expect at ISO 1600 ??? never used film? I wonder if people really know how to use their cameras."

I agree pisco $1800 is a bargain. But I wished high ISO noise was as nice as film though...

DonSchap thats hilarious :)

I understand all that, and I pretty much know where my settings will be for the results I want based on conditions, which for me is always outdoors, sun or clouds. Also I know what I can do to fix things in Lightroom, but that's not what I am trying to get at. Nobody has answered the question? Have any company tried to put live view in the viewfinder yet? It's a very simple question, if you know. I'm guessing no company has tried, but they certainly have tried other things with it. For me personally, I would trade my LCD in a heartbeat to get all my settings and Live View inside the viewfinder like the H9, but it doesn't have live view. For what I use the camera for, its a no brainer. I am not saying its practical or perfect for most serious DSLR crowd, but I would enjoy it that way. Its kind of what I am used to. Others have expressed the same viewpoints elsewhere. Of course when a company incorporates something that works well, then everyone stops joking and becomes keenly interested.

BBR

Hmmm have you seen panasonics micro four thirds G1 and Gh1 cameras? Those two models have a dedicated electronic view finder which uses live view on the lcd and inside the viewfinder. I tried it in the store but forgot if they have all the information stuff in the viewfinder. Its a really neat little camera...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08...nic_DMC_G1.asp

But Im not sure if thats what you want. Are you asking if they have a optical viewfinder that can switch to live view? Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for the common sense reply. Yeah, that's basically what I was asking about. Wow! Fascinating! It says its the worlds first full live view, and if I read that correctly, I believe this is not the half fix the Olympus introduced, but that live view works actually inside the viewfinder! That's pretty cool! I would love to check one of those out at a camera store. This camera is actually both powerful and light too! It uses the 4/3 system, but I still am fascinated by the live view. Its a very long read on the review, so I only read about half of it, but it sounds ideal, light, live view, interchangable lens like a DSLR, and got contrast AF. Looks pretty cool on the surface. Yes, its got all the info in the viewfinder too!

thanks,
BBR