Basketball Lighting Experiment

[JBPhoto]

Last night I shot a girls high school bball game with a 580EX mounted 13' up on a lightstand and fired with Pocket Wizards. I tried this configuration to decide if I want to get another 580EX or a couple of Alien Bees (or something similar). I'd prefer to go with another 580EX but I had very mixed results and I'd like some input/opinions. I only kept 44 shots out of 278 due to trial and error (mostly the latter) playing with my settings. The stand was placed about 8-10 feet off the corner and I was positioned about 20 feet away down the baseline, similar to Livin's illustration. The examples below give the detail of each shot. In the second half, I moved the stand to the opposite end and positioned the stand about 20 feet off the corner. I shot with a 70-200 f/2.8 IS and it seems I had better results at 180mm to 200mm, when the players were at the opposite end of the court. Obviously a second flash will offer more uniform lighting, but I need some help on the settings to get more keepers. My flash settings are as best as I can recall as they're not in the EXIF. Most all shots at the near end were overexposed - too much power on the flash which was set at full power at 35mm so I scaled back to 1/2 (+.03) at 50mm. I'd like to adjust on the fly for 70mm range (near end action) but I can't get an accurate viewfinder reading while using flash. Will high speed synch (which wasn't on) take care of this?

Shot 1: 1/320, f/3.2, ISO 400, from 180mm
Shot 2: 1/320, f.4.0, ISO 800, from 200mm
Shot 3: 1/250, f/4.0, ISO 800, from 200mm
Shot 4: 1/200, f/4.0, ISO 800, from 200MM

[JSPhoto]

You'd be better off with the 580EX on camera and using fill flash mode

JS

[JBPhoto]

JS, why do you suggest that? Please elaborate. On camera flash goes against everything I've read for indoor basketball (and volleyball and wrestling), the results I would anticipate, and the "in your face" flash the athletes would face from the guy at the baseline. At minimum, a flash bracket would offer better results than on camera flash, but that's still intrusive and not what I'm after. I've read in other forums where 580's and SB's are being used as mounted strobes with very favorable results. Advice on the settings that would achieve this is what I'm looking for. The reason I want to try to make this work is for the portability and convenience of the 580's with CP-E3's... no power cords or large battery units, and the 150 shot limits that the larger stobes with battery packs bring into play.

[livin4lax09]

JB, these look good, and it seems like you're getting off to a very good start. Can you post a setup, because I'm slightly unsure of where you were placing your strobes. If you're shooting with strobes at your end and shooting the other end of the gym, I'd say that's pretty impressive. what were you using for WB? on the first one it looks too cool, but in the next two it looks a bit too warm, but dead on in the 4th. do you have cs2, iphoto, or lightroom? If you do, you can shoot RAW and then change the color temp in post processing, as well as exposure. Of course you'll be dealing with longer write times, but if you aren't shooting continuous it shouldn't be much of a problem. Also, just bump some of the levels or use an interesting technique I read about in order to increase exposure with small amounts of noise creeping in.

What i would suggest is placing the strobe closer to the athletes that you are shooting so you can start to rely solely on the strobe instead of the ambient light. Because when you are shooting with the ISO 800, and 3.2, it's evident that you're shooting partly ambient, which you want to avoid doing with strobes. when you combine the ambient light and the strobes, you'll start to get motion blur. because strobes flash very fast, usually around 1/1000 of a second, so they usually always freeze action. but then take your ambient into play, and if you are shooting at 1/320, you can still get motion blur. combine the two exposures and you're looking at a mostly sharp image with motion blur in some parts. this is why many strobists like to shoot 2 stops underexposed and then bring the light back up with the strobes, so both the action and the color from the ambient doesnt interfere with the shot.

But the off-camera looks much better than any on camera stuff, especially if it's directly flashing. you're avoiding red-eye, you're able to use lower ISOs, you're able to control color casts a lot more than AWB, less nasty shadows, you don't get flat lighting, and like you said, that avoid that "flash from the baseline."

I can't stress the bb-200s enough. I suggest you pick one up just to try out. they are AC powered, but if you just throw it in the corner of the gym there should be no problem. Use it as your bounce flash, aim it towards the ceiling, then use your 580 as a straight on flash. this should help to eliminate some of your shadows. We're into learning this together.

[JSPhoto]

JB,
Look at your top shot and then the two below, that should show why using the 580EX off camera won't work as a strobe would.
Your better off using the 580EX on camera in fill flash mode, and if you do it propperly you won't get theflash look but a more natural look.
I have never heard of anyone, basketball or any other sport where flash is allowed complain about the flash. For one, they are too busy to notice it, for another they are looking up, not at me. Lastly, the flash, when in fill flash mode is so quick hardly anyone notices it. Putting the flash on a bracket would make no difference shooting basketball unless you are shooting the players like your top shot, and even then in fill flash mode you wouldn't need the bracket.
Also, where did you get the idea of only 150 shots with strobes? A fairly cheap set I used a couple years ago got 350+ at full power, and over 700 on lower power settings. But if you get the AC type you don't have to worry at all about the number of shots or having to charge batteries. Everyone I know now uses the AC stobes at events they take them to. This is partly due the fact they can fire away and the AC units recycle much quicker.

JS

[livin4lax09]

JS: it also matters what zoom setting it is being used on. If strobing, it makes the most sense to use the widest zoom setting to get the widest field of light, but on-camera, you're usually shooting the 105mm setting if shooting ETTL, which uses a lot less battery power because it's not putting out nearly as much light.

[JBPhoto]

JS - I was flipping through the December issue of Shutterbug and there is a review of the Mobilight 300, gets 150 shots on a charge. Others I've seen get around 200. I'm gonna look into the AB B800's and the Vagabond power source, and also the Briteks.

Brent - My layout was pretty much identical to yours with the stand about 8-10 feet diagonally back from the corner. I shot from about 15 feet down the baseline. In the second half though, I moved it back about 20 feet from the corner with better results. These shots are from the opposite end of the court, at 180 to 200mm. I use CS2 and I've adjusted the levels and ran USM at 500/.2/0. I started with the WB on Auto and switched to flourescent, then to custom from a white sheet of paper. I think the last shot is custom WB.

[hesaias]

I have asked the athletes I shoot, including basketball from ages 5-18 yrs, if they notice the flash. They all said no. I however, never, ever shoot with flash from under the goal on foul shots. I switch to a slower shutter speed and wider apperature.

[hesaias]

..and just my opinion, those shots are awesome action, but the lighting looks odd to me. Very unnatural. Maybe its just me

[livin4lax09]

scott, this is kind of the point of artificial lighting, that it doesn't look that "natural" because you are trying to improve upon the way it looks in real life. If my photos looked how they actually look in the gym of my high school, then they wouldn't be too impressive. Same idea as portraits. Dramatic lighting is key, and artificial lighting definitely helps with sports, and while it does look 'unnatural,' the natural lighting is also unnatural since it is in fact artificial light as well, just not good artificial light. but I do understand it is your opinion, and I respect it, just pointing out some of the pros to strobe shooting.

[JBPhoto]

So today I ordered 2 AlienBees B800's and another 13' light stand. I discovered the AB's would actually be cheaper than another 580EX, CP-E3 and Pocket Wizard. Multiple AB's can be fired from one PW on the first strobe since it they have a built in relay. This will be interesting. I didn't get a power source though, will go with AC for now and see how much I really need it. I'm shooting a high school quad wrestling meet on Friday, don't know if they'll be here in time, but can any one offer suggestions on power settings and directional placement? They are 320 true/800 effective watts.

[livin4lax09]

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it an optical relay off the flash? if so, this may cause problems if others in the gym are using flash, because your camera may see this and pop off, only to be not recycled for your shot. Could only happen once from some parent shooting a pic, could happen a LOT if another photographer is on site with flash as well. My recommendation for the most even light is just to put them in the corners of the gym, full power, off the ceiling, and shoot from that side of the gym. you can try going direct with one toned down, and see if you like your results.

[WsW-WYATT-EARP]

So today I ordered 2 AlienBees B800's and another 13' light stand. I discovered the AB's would actually be cheaper than another 580EX, CP-E3 and Pocket Wizard. Multiple AB's can be fired from one PW on the first strobe since it they have a built in relay. This will be interesting. I didn't get a power source though, will go with AC for now and see how much I really need it. I'm shooting a high school quad wrestling meet on Friday, don't know if they'll be here in time, but can any one offer suggestions on power settings and directional placement? They are 320 true/800 effective watts.

I ordered AB400's a few weeks ago ... ordered them wednesday morning... had them friday afternoon ...

hope you get yours in time .. just letting you know how quick they ship ...

this thread is very interesting ... I wondered how you used strobes at a sporting event without blinding the players ... never asked cause i don't think i will ever have to ... but now i know in case it ever comes up ...


but as brent says the relay in the strobes is tripped by the flash of the other strobe ... or by a flash off your on camera flash or anyones on camera flash ... so as he said if other parents are taking pics with flash your strobe will be going off ... their pics won't turn out due to the strobe going off ... and if you are getting ready to shoot and the strobe goes off it may not be recycled in time for your shot leaving your shot dark ...

[JBPhoto]

Good feedback. I think you are both correct on the relay. I'll order another PW and synch cord for the second strobe. I assume I can turn off the built in relay somehow.

[WsW-WYATT-EARP]

Good feedback. I think you are both correct on the relay. I'll order another PW and synch cord for the second strobe. I assume I can turn off the built in relay somehow.

all the alien bees units have this "relay" built into them .. it is canceled out as soon as you plug something into the synch to control when it fires ...

[JBPhoto]

Thanks Ben, I ordered another PW and also picked up a Sekonic L-358 light meter with the radio transmitter module so it syncs wirelessly with the PW's. I figure I'm gonna need all the help I can get in figuring these things out.

[WsW-WYATT-EARP]

a few guys at my photo club have that light meter .. it is sweet ...

i have to hook up the sync cord to my meter .. but works the same none the less ...

i am looking at the wireless set up from alienbees to satisfy my needs for a while .. alot cheaper than the PW's

i took these xmas day with my bees ... made everyone come down for pics .. took a while to get a few to come down but got everyone ...

[MJS]

The booster club of the school I work at is thinking of equiping our gym with alien bees set up in the cieling pointing down with the 10 in reflectors. We will equip them with wireless so that only myself or a specified shooter can trigger the setup. In all major sports arenas there are multiple strobe banks set up in the catwalks for visiting photogs. The house will usually issue the wizards to the accredited shooters on a first come, first served basis.

According to our local and district regs, we are not allowed to use courtside camera flash during any basketball games.

[livin4lax09]

now thats awesome. I need to convince my venues to do that...haha.