Editing Color - Nik, Alien Skin, CS4, Lightroom, etc...

[photophorous]

Hi Everyone,

I've been struggling to find a good way to explain what I'm looking for and unfortunately I'm afraid this is going to be a long complicated question that won't be easy to answer. If you have the time I'd appreciate hearing your opinion.

First a little background. I've been shooting film seriously for over 4 years and digital for over 3 years, but I've never really gotten comfortable with editing digital files to produce the colors I want. For film I shoot mostly B&W, but when I shoot color I like the look of portrait films like Fuji 400H and slide films like Velvia for landscapes. I plan to keep shooting film, at least for B&W, but I want to figure out how other people get nice colors from digital. And, I don't want to spend hours editing each photo.

For my current digital workflow, I process RAW files in Canon's DPP, which seems to work really well, and then I do the rest of my editing in Photoshop 6. I use layer masks quite often for selective adjustments to color balance, saturation, levels, or sharpening, or for a graduated ND filter effect. I have a calibrated monitor. I work in Adobe RGB and switch back to sRGB for printing or web display. I've even tried custom white balance in camera. I think I know how to get fairly accurate colors, which is good enough...sometimes. But most of the time I don't care about accuracy. I miss the colors I get from film.

So, I'm thinking about a few different software upgrades. My PS 6 is so old I can't really get any plug-ins for it. That means I need to consider forking out $600 for CS4 or $250 for Lightroom. I think either would allow me to use plug-ins, but Lightroom might also simplify some of the editing I already do in PS 6 and help me be more organized with my file storage. I'd still have PS 6 for times that I need to edit in layers. For those reasons, Lightroom seems like the better option, but I'm not sure I know what I'd be missing from CS4. Any thoughts?

That leads me to the plug-ins. Nik offers a package that includes a couple of plug-ins for editing color. The reviews I've read and the samples I've seen look positive. There's also Alien Skin's Exposure, which also gets good reviews. Exposure is geared more directly towards reproducing the look of film, but I'm not convinced it would be any better for that purpose than the Nik software. Anyone have experience with either of these?

Aside from spending money on software there is always the possibility of learning how to use PS 6 more effectively. But, that's what I've been trying for over three years now with limited success. If anyone can tell me a quick and easy way to duplicate the look of certain color films, I'm all ears (or eyes, I guess). But, please don't tell me all I need to do is adjust the saturation and add noise.

Right now, these are the options I see:

1. Don't buy anything but learn some new technique to get the colors I want with out spending too much time editing. (seems impossible)

2. Buy Lightroom only and then learn some new techniques. (economical option)

3. Buy CS4 only and then learn some new techniques. (I wouldn't be able to afford any additional software if I did this)

4. Buy Lightroom and either the Nik plug-in package or Exposure. (seems like the most promising option)

Well, that is my dilemma. Any advice before I go blow a bunch of money?

Thanks,
Paul

edit: I just realized that Exposure won't work with Lightroom, so I'd either have to buy CS4 or Photoshop Elements. Using Exposure 2 with Elements would be the cheapest option, so that is starting to sound better.

[Medley]

OK, so you have a profiled monitor. Do you also have an icc profile for your printer?

Forgive me if I'm covering ground you're already familiar with, but here goes: a profiled monitor will ensure that you monitor is displaying colors correctly, but true color management also includes an icc profile. An icc profile is a file that defines exactly how colors will look, given a specific paper, inkset, and printer. They are either downloaded, or created using the same colorimeter you use for your monitor (though different software is normally used).

Once you have an icc profile installed, you simply use Edit> Convert to profile early on in your editing. This changes the file to use the primter=specific colors, and since your monitor is profiled........

- Joe U

[photophorous]

OK, so you have a profiled monitor. Do you also have an icc profile for your printer?

Forgive me if I'm covering ground you're already familiar with, but here goes: a profiled monitor will ensure that you monitor is displaying colors correctly, but true color management also includes an icc profile. An icc profile is a file that defines exactly how colors will look, given a specific paper, inkset, and printer. They are either downloaded, or created using the same colorimeter you use for your monitor (though different software is normally used).

Once you have an icc profile installed, you simply use Edit> Convert to profile early on in your editing. This changes the file to use the primter=specific colors, and since your monitor is profiled........

- Joe U

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the response. I do have an ICC profile for my monitor, but not my printer. I don't do serious prints at home so that is not the issue. It's not really a matter of accuracy. The differences I see between the colors I get from film and from digital can be seen on the monitor. I scan my film with a Nikon Coolscan, but I also see these differences in web galleries and places like flickr. If you go to the flickr pool for Fuji 400H you'll get a sense for it's color palette. Same can be done with Velvia. These are just examples. I know some people are able to get these kinds of colors with digital cameras but I don't know how they do it.

I've tried tweaking the color balance, saturation, and levels to get my photos to look like similar shots taken on film, but I can never pull it off. If for example, I get the skin tones to look right on a portrait, then the brown hair looks off. If I get the greens in a landscape to look right, then the blue in the sky is off. When I say "off," I mean off from how it would look with a particular film. I realize this is not a very good explanation, but I'm not sure what else to say.

Paul

[drg]

Paul,

What I believe you are looking for are 'filters' for use in Adobe Photoshop or something similar.

Nik Software has a variety of 'film' effects and filters in their various application suites. These are compatible with Adobe products both Lightroom and Photoshop.

Some users will buy custom or make a custom filter through profiling of a film type to get 'that' look.

Check the Adobe web sites for links to various third-party vendors for add-ons for various film packages. If you can't find what you are looking for, let me know and I'll dig up some more web sites and products.

I built my own filters a couple of years ago, but rarely use them. Lots of hardware and tools needed to get it right and then just relatively small files to plug-in.

Fuji has had built in settings in some cameras and Sony has had something similar I believe. For most a post processing solution is the most flexible.

[AgingEyes]

Nik Software has a variety of 'film' effects and filters in their various application suites.

I'm not sure that will help him (I have the complete ColorEfex Pro). Paul is after some particular look in his color photos and I think he just has to keep tweaking and experimenting, learning more about Photoshop and all the techniques and tricks to use it. Problem is, Paul also does not want to spend too many hours post-processing the images. It sounds like a dilemma to me.

Having said that, Nik's Silver Efex Pro (for B&W photos) does come with some film-like effects to simulate the look of different B&W films.

Fuji has had built in settings in some cameras

That I would also suggest. Paul, perhaps you could try get your hands on a Fujifilm S5 Pro and see if you like the results. I know some die-hard fujifilm fans they either shoot with S5 or nothing else. In their opinions, S5 produces the best skin tone bar none.

[drg]

I'm not sure that will help him (I have the complete ColorEfex Pro). Paul is after some particular look in his color photos and I think he just has to keep tweaking and experimenting, learning more about Photoshop and all the techniques and tricks to use it. Problem is, Paul also does not want to spend too many hours post-processing the images. It sounds like a dilemma to me.

Having said that, Nik's Silver Efex Pro (for B&W photos) does come with some film-like effects to simulate the look of different B&W films.



That I would also suggest. Paul, perhaps you could try get your hands on a Fujifilm S5 Pro and see if you like the results. I know some die-hard fujifilm fans they either shoot with S5 or nothing else. In their opinions, S5 produces the best skin tone bar none.

The newest version of Color Efex Pro 3.0, only in the Complete Edition, does have several film specific 'effects' for Kodak and Fuji color products. This is the replacement for an earlier product from Nik that offered just film like filters in two or three sets of parameters. Not cheap, but less expensive than paying to have a custom filter produced.

There are various free products floating around on the Web that I won't 'vouch' for other than to say that most are worth at least what you pay for them. Some are worth quite a bit more, particularly a couple for Fuji Provia and one for Kodak Gold film.

I think the not wanting to do a lot of Post Processing may be the one big thing that could keep film vital for the near future. Learning to do some things is not only costly and time consuming but requires a degree of training that most people can't access easily. The seats in those seminars are limited, costly and usually reserved for graphic professionals.

One more possible idea is to just try free/trial versions of all the appropriate software products to find the best one-button solution or near to that as possible.

[AgingEyes]

The newest version of Color Efex Pro 3.0, only in the Complete Edition

I only have the Complete Edition.

I think the not wanting to do a lot of Post Processing may be the one big thing that could keep film vital for the near future.

I doubt it. Many still shoot films - large format films particularly - then scan them and process the image in Photoshop and the like. The digital age we're having now offer a lot of convenience and possibilities that the old film era couldn't. The only reason that I can see people shooting film is that "film" look that some people prefer. After processing the films, the rest is digital except to the die-hard ones. I don't think it has a lot to do with the learning this and that of digital processing that keeps the film vital. Learning post-processing digital images also do not have to be like you described. I'm sure many (despite of age) didn't experience that either. And, even shooting digital alone does not necessarily entails long hour in front of the computer. Besides, to get a good B&W print in the dark room can take one or even more days spent in the darkroom. And that's just for getting that one print, IF you can get that one print you're after. Not to mention it also takes a lot of skills, too. I'd say more good images can be produced today than in the film days.

[photophorous]

drg / AgingEyes,

Thanks for responding. I think I need to try the free trials for Nik and Alien Skin. I've also found some free plug-ins that might be worth a try. But, I don't think any of them will work with my ancient Photoshop 6. This is where things get complicated.

Yes, the Nik software can work with Lightroom or with Photoshop, but they seem to be separate packages and the one that is compatible with Photoshop costs significantly more. I assume (but I'm not sure) that I'd need the more expensive "Photoshop" version of this package if I was going to use it with Photoshop Elements? (I can't afford to buy CS4.)

On the other hand, Alien Skin's Exposure 2 does not work with LightRoom, so I'd need to get Photoshop Elements 8 to run it

Apparently in order to compare these two options, I need a trial for all four: Lightroom, Elements, Nik, and Exposure 2. Plus whatever free plug-ins I can find.

That leads to some new questions.

Aside form these plug-ins, does anyone have a strong argument for why I might want to use Lightroom over PSE8?

Can anyone comment on how PS Elements 8 compares to my ancient PS6? I was tinkering with PSE7 on my work computer today and I couldn't really find anything missing that I normally use in PS6. Except, I could not figure out how to add a layer mask to a duplicate of the background layer. Only adjustment layers seem to have masks.

Thanks again!

Paul

PS. Although the Fuji S5 might solve some of my problems, I don't want to switch systems again. I switched from Nikon to Canon about a year ago but that's a different story.

[AgingEyes]

I don't have LightRoom, From what I've read, LightRoom should be good enough for most adjustments you want to do to your photos. For heavy tweaking, Photoshop is still the way to go.

I started with Photoshop Element 5. Then changed to Photoshop when it was 50% off.

Here's another option if you want to retouch portraits:

http://www.kelbytraining.com/product...ching-kit.html

As it says, it's a kit. You get ready-to-use skin tones that he has created for use in Photoshop throughout the years. I don't think it's a plug-in. Right now it's on sale for $59.99.

[chocolic]

Hi, I just started using lightroom and have found that there are thousands of presets available online for download. While I havent used them, and can't vouch for them - I googled lightroom preset and velvia or 400H and have found that there are some out there. It may be worth your time to give them a try?

[Medley]

Paul, I hadn't forgotten you. As someone who hasn't shot film (at least not seriously), I needed to educate myself on what you were after. So, I spent a few days browsing galleries.

Having browsed the galleries, I now understand what you're after better. And, I offer a partial solution- the cheapest solution yet: Lab color mode. It's completely doable from within PS6, but learning Lab is time intensive. Even the color notation is completely different from RGB- it's like learning to do things all over again.

However, Lab mode is unique in several ways. Lab separates color from brightness (Luminosity, the "L" in "Lab"), which means you can edit color separately from brightness. Also, color edits are normally made by applying a Curves command to the a and b color channels. This gives you a lot more control of individual colors, and even gives control over tonal values within a color. If you're interested, I can give you a basic overview of how to do edits, which should let you start experimenting.

In looking over the galleries, Lab mode seems to be the best course of action to achieve what you want to do. I'm not sure that you'll get what you want from one of the plug-ins. I'm not saying it's impossible, I've just never seen an add-on that emulates Lab.

Before making a decision, I feel it's only fair to warn you that Lab mode has it's limitations. In particular, I rarely get good results in skin tones in Lab, and when I do it takes a lot of finesse.

So, in review: least expensive option, but time intensive and not likely to be a total solution- unless you're willing to spend a LOT of time learning it.

- Joe.

[photophorous]

I don't have LightRoom, From what I've read, LightRoom should be good enough for most adjustments you want to do to your photos. For heavy tweaking, Photoshop is still the way to go.

I started with Photoshop Element 5. Then changed to Photoshop when it was 50% off.

Here's another option if you want to retouch portraits:

http://www.kelbytraining.com/product...ching-kit.html

As it says, it's a kit. You get ready-to-use skin tones that he has created for use in Photoshop throughout the years. I don't think it's a plug-in. Right now it's on sale for $59.99.

I can't tell much about that "kit" from the description. If it's just aimed towards touching up photos for portraits, that's not really what I'm looking for. And judging by the title, I'm not sure if CS4 is required or not.

[photophorous]

Hi, I just started using lightroom and have found that there are thousands of presets available online for download. While I havent used them, and can't vouch for them - I googled lightroom preset and velvia or 400H and have found that there are some out there. It may be worth your time to give them a try?

Thanks for your response. I've been doing a little more research and I think you're right that some of these free presets might be worth a shot. I just downloaded the LR2.0 trial. If I like LR, then this may be the answer. But, I'm a little uncertain about the lack of layers in LR. I'd prefer to make these kinds of changes as a layer adjustment.

[photophorous]

Paul, I hadn't forgotten you. As someone who hasn't shot film (at least not seriously), I needed to educate myself on what you were after. So, I spent a few days browsing galleries.

Having browsed the galleries, I now understand what you're after better. And, I offer a partial solution- the cheapest solution yet: Lab color mode. It's completely doable from within PS6, but learning Lab is time intensive. Even the color notation is completely different from RGB- it's like learning to do things all over again.

However, Lab mode is unique in several ways. Lab separates color from brightness (Luminosity, the "L" in "Lab"), which means you can edit color separately from brightness. Also, color edits are normally made by applying a Curves command to the a and b color channels. This gives you a lot more control of individual colors, and even gives control over tonal values within a color. If you're interested, I can give you a basic overview of how to do edits, which should let you start experimenting.

In looking over the galleries, Lab mode seems to be the best course of action to achieve what you want to do. I'm not sure that you'll get what you want from one of the plug-ins. I'm not saying it's impossible, I've just never seen an add-on that emulates Lab.

Before making a decision, I feel it's only fair to warn you that Lab mode has it's limitations. In particular, I rarely get good results in skin tones in Lab, and when I do it takes a lot of finesse.

So, in review: least expensive option, but time intensive and not likely to be a total solution- unless you're willing to spend a LOT of time learning it.

- Joe.

Hi Joe. Thanks for a doing more research for me. I actually tinker a little in LAB mode already. I think it was on the Luminous Landscape website where I read a tutorial on how to use LAB mode to adjust saturation without causing an unwanted shift in the color balance. That's how I do most of my saturation boosts (curves a & b channel adjustments) when I'm trying to get a Velvia look. It works pretty well, but I find it to be a little cumbersome and it still doesn't get me where I want to be because the color balance or palette still doesn't look like Velvia. I have not used LAB mode to change the color balance. If you have some tips on how to do that, I'd be interested to hear more. But, the time intensive aspect will probably keep me looking for something else.